RE: Cars we won't regret going electric: Speed Matters
Discussion
Dazed and Confused said:
Dazed and Confused said:
RayTay said:
Dazed and Confused said:
EVs neither save you money or the planet.
Drivel. All evidence points the other way. Dazed and Confused said:
Please explain where the savings are if it's cost you 20 Grand to run a Nissan Leaf for three years?
I've not been following your thread with RayTay, but where is the 20 grand coming from?I've had mine for almost 2 years. Here's my running costs.
List price was £32,500 (!)
Nissan discounted it to £18,000.
Deposit of £850.
24 monthly payments of £236.
1x service at £99
+ fuel at approx. £750 for the two years.
I'll be over my mileage allowance by about 1,000 miles by the end of the term so that'll add another £70 on in excess mileage charges.
So about £7,500 to run it for two years. Just fuel costs alone for a petrol/diesel would be a third of that.
gazchap said:
Dazed and Confused said:
Please explain where the savings are if it's cost you 20 Grand to run a Nissan Leaf for three years?
I've not been following your thread with RayTay, but where is the 20 grand coming from?I've had mine for almost 2 years. Here's my running costs.
List price was £32,500 (!)
.
kambites said:
It's not conventional looking though, it looks like an elephant has sat on the bonnet. 
As I said, it wouldn't put me off buying it... but to my eyes it's not pretty.
I hate modern car bonnets. Legislation means they need to be high, but manufactures try to hide it by bulging the middle only so the wing doesn't look high.As I said, it wouldn't put me off buying it... but to my eyes it's not pretty.
I like that Tesla's don't need to do that. They have gone for a shorter lower nose to maximise cabin space.
98elise said:
I hate modern car bonnets. Legislation means they need to be high, but manufactures try to hide it by bulging the middle only so the wing doesn't look high.
I like that Tesla's don't need to do that. They have gone for a shorter lower nose to maximise cabin space.
I like the bonnet for similar reasons, however the front looks like it should have a grill and it hasn't been cut out. It may look better with a plate on it, but they could have made it look less like an front end that could be used on the optional ICE version.I like that Tesla's don't need to do that. They have gone for a shorter lower nose to maximise cabin space.
Dazed and Confused said:
gazchap said:
Dazed and Confused said:
Please explain where the savings are if it's cost you 20 Grand to run a Nissan Leaf for three years?
I've not been following your thread with RayTay, but where is the 20 grand coming from?I've had mine for almost 2 years. Here's my running costs.
List price was £32,500 (!)
.
1) Early cars are subject to large capability improvements as the tech improves and the costs drop, meaning that the early life (<3 years old) depreciation is heavy
BUT:
2) As the cars age in the mid term (say 3 to 5 years), and more pressure is applied to ICEs i think there value will stabilise.
and
3) As they get old (>5years) there value will stay higher than for ICE because they are both much more durable (no engine/dmf/cat/transmission etc) to suddenly break, and the major cost part (the battery) monitors it's own condition! So go to buy a s/h EV, and a few pressed on the dash (or with a scan tool) and you can read out the precise condition of the battery, meaning you know EXACTLY what you are buying (when you go to buy a 100 kmile ICE, you have no idea what the next 50k miles will bring, the only certainty is that as miles increases, the chances of major and expensive borkage increase (hence most ICEs being essentially worthless at 150 kmiles)
Dazed and Confused said:
It comes from the fact that 3 year old Leafs are going for £9k and EVs are known to depreciate quite badly. Three EVs in What Cars Waste of Money Top Ten for 2017.
OK, so by "cost you 20 grand" you mean "not cost you 20 grand".EVs are developing so quickly that, in my view, it makes zero sense to keep one after a lease/PCP term comes to an end. You're right in that they depreciate heavily compared to many cars, but a £18K Leaf Acenta dropping to £9K after 3 years isn't that different to other cars dropping 50% after 3 years. Your average 5 Series is highly likely to drop just as much, if not more over 3 years.
Dazed and Confused said:
Dazed and Confused said:
Dazed and Confused said:
RayTay said:
Dazed and Confused said:
EVs neither save you money or the planet.
Drivel. All evidence points the other way. Jaguar are releasing their I-pace next year, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche a year or so later. BMW will also expand their EV line-up. Have all the big manufacturers got it wrong?
GT119 said:
Maybe because it is counterbalanced by a reduction in fossil fuel consumption for propulsion and the energy consumed in producing, recycling and/or disposing of conventional drivetrains. If EVs aren't the future, what in your opinion is?
Jaguar are releasing their I-pace next year, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche a year or so later. BMW will also expand their EV line-up. Have all the big manufacturers got it wrong?
That latter bit is an interesting debate. At the end of the day they are only making these cars because of urban legislation that in turn has lead to a change in consumer demands. Jaguar are releasing their I-pace next year, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche a year or so later. BMW will also expand their EV line-up. Have all the big manufacturers got it wrong?
EVs aren't going to save the planet. I think we all appreciate this. Likewise, there are elements of the EV market that will be environmentally worse than the ICE. It's also a false market at present requiring subsidy of the richest in society by everyone else and that brings a moral question to bear but thanks to DieselGate I think the masses have realised that EVs will improve the local quality of life for the vast majority of Westerners given that most live in towns and cities where ICE heavily contributes to noise and air pollution.
Ultimately, the genuine future doesn't lie with private vehicles but shared cars and increased public transport or notable de-population.
DonkeyApple said:
Ultimately, the genuine future doesn't lie with private vehicles but shared cars and increased public transport or notable de-population.
In certain circumstances maybe, but having been a Zipcar user in the past it isn't actually as practical as they'd have you believe. Also we aren't all socialists, and not all of us like sharing. De-population? Excluding immigration, most western populations are already in decline alongside Japan, with China due to go into reverse in the not too distant future. Robert-nszl1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Ultimately, the genuine future doesn't lie with private vehicles but shared cars and increased public transport or notable de-population.
In certain circumstances maybe, but having been a Zipcar user in the past it isn't actually as practical as they'd have you believe. Also we aren't all socialists, and not all of us like sharing. De-population? Excluding immigration, most western populations are already in decline alongside Japan, with China due to go into reverse in the not too distant future. And while indigenous birth rates may be in decline in the West this is being countered by migration. The only true solution to human pollution is the global reduction of the human population. Hence the strange and rather radical argument that the eradication of small pox is the true cause of man made pollution!!!!!!
DonkeyApple said:
GT119 said:
Maybe because it is counterbalanced by a reduction in fossil fuel consumption for propulsion and the energy consumed in producing, recycling and/or disposing of conventional drivetrains. If EVs aren't the future, what in your opinion is?
Jaguar are releasing their I-pace next year, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche a year or so later. BMW will also expand their EV line-up. Have all the big manufacturers got it wrong?
That latter bit is an interesting debate. At the end of the day they are only making these cars because of urban legislation that in turn has lead to a change in consumer demands. Jaguar are releasing their I-pace next year, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche a year or so later. BMW will also expand their EV line-up. Have all the big manufacturers got it wrong?
EVs aren't going to save the planet. I think we all appreciate this. Likewise, there are elements of the EV market that will be environmentally worse than the ICE. It's also a false market at present requiring subsidy of the richest in society by everyone else and that brings a moral question to bear but thanks to DieselGate I think the masses have realised that EVs will improve the local quality of life for the vast majority of Westerners given that most live in towns and cities where ICE heavily contributes to noise and air pollution.
Ultimately, the genuine future doesn't lie with private vehicles but shared cars and increased public transport or notable de-population.
BEV technology is not yet fully mature but also not that far away from competing with conventional technology on purchase cost and range. In terms of running costs, maintenance, ease-of-use, NVH, etc. it is inherently far superior.
I do think their will be a 'tipping point' as others have mentioned, the point art which most car users would not want to be seen dead in a dirty diesel/petrol for the purposes of getting from A to B. How far away is that point, my guess is within 10 years.
There are other technologies that can deliver fossil-free motoring, however to me BEV are by far the most obvious solution.
Where does that leave the V8 driving PHer? I think we are destined to dwindle in number. The reality is that more and more car enthusiasts these days have a Golf R, 140i or AMG45 as their dream car, predominately because they delivery instant gratification through speed and acceleration. Will replacing the drivetrains in these cars with performance EV technology really change that kind of driving experience?
GT119 said:
The reality is that more and more car enthusiasts these days have a Golf R, 140i or AMG45 as their dream car, predominately because they delivery instant gratification through speed and acceleration. Will replacing the drivetrains in these cars with performance EV technology really change that kind of driving experience?
Aslong as manufacturers can add in the little fart between shifts people seem to love these days... The thing that currently makes EV's so dirty to produce is rare earth metals is it not? Currently you have these being produced largely in countries that don't concern themselves too much with being green, like China where lip service is paid but the reality is the mines are pollution disasters. Once they clean up their act and manufacturers can stand there with a clear conscience and say that not only are their products carbon neutral but they're produced with as little wider environmental pollution as is possible more people will get on board. We've become obsessed with carbon and it's a distraction from the real consequences of mining such as widespread contamination of land, deforestation, polluting of waterways etc
I'm not sure I can see EV's dominating the market within a decade. Within 20 years absolutely but within 10 I only see the overwhelming majority of cars being petrol electric hybrids. A nice stepping stone.
At the end of the day petrol is still fairly cheap to the point that people like myself can quite easily afford to run a car that gets less than 20mpg. I filled up two days ago at 111.9p/l, about the same price as bottled water in that petrol station.
I'm not sure I can see EV's dominating the market within a decade. Within 20 years absolutely but within 10 I only see the overwhelming majority of cars being petrol electric hybrids. A nice stepping stone.
At the end of the day petrol is still fairly cheap to the point that people like myself can quite easily afford to run a car that gets less than 20mpg. I filled up two days ago at 111.9p/l, about the same price as bottled water in that petrol station.
djc206 said:
The thing that currently makes EV's so dirty to produce is rare earth metals is it not? Currently you have these being produced largely in countries that don't concern themselves too much with being green, like China where lip service is paid but the reality is the mines are pollution disasters. Once they clean up their act and manufacturers can stand there with a clear conscience and say that not only are their products carbon neutral but they're produced with as little wider environmental pollution as is possible more people will get on board. We've become obsessed with carbon and it's a distraction from the real consequences of mining such as widespread contamination of land, deforestation, polluting of waterways etc
I'm not sure I can see EV's dominating the market within a decade. Within 20 years absolutely but within 10 I only see the overwhelming majority of cars being petrol electric hybrids. A nice stepping stone.
At the end of the day petrol is still fairly cheap to the point that people like myself can quite easily afford to run a car that gets less than 20mpg. I filled up two days ago at 111.9p/l, about the same price as bottled water in that petrol station.
Not really. Rare earth metals are sometimes used in electric motors to improve efficiency and performance but the amount used isn't that great. Tesla don't actually use car earth materials in their motors, is just regular copper and iron. Lithium is used in the battery pack, but it is not a rare earth substance. Extracting it is probably what you are referring to as 'dirty'. The thing is, we take for granted the availability of petrol and diesel but very few people seem to understand that it took a reasonable amount of electricity in the first place to refine it from crude oil. if you cut out the whole process of drilling/exploration, collecting and refining crude, distributing the fuel and then burning it, that whole package of savings is in my view what makes BEVs running of renewable sources the most obvious long term solution. I'm not sure I can see EV's dominating the market within a decade. Within 20 years absolutely but within 10 I only see the overwhelming majority of cars being petrol electric hybrids. A nice stepping stone.
At the end of the day petrol is still fairly cheap to the point that people like myself can quite easily afford to run a car that gets less than 20mpg. I filled up two days ago at 111.9p/l, about the same price as bottled water in that petrol station.
GT119 said:
In theory, EVs can be produced, operated and disposed of/recycled using entirely renewable energy, let's call it fossil-free motoring, at which point I think the argument that the planet as whole will be meaningfully better-off start to become real.
No they can't.Renewable energy (wind/solar) is so inefficient the only way society could run off it would be to revert to 17th century population levels and standards of living.
This is the lie people are being fed/ swallowing (and that CAGW is actually a real threat).
The only way to zero carbon economy is Nuclear, but for some strange reason the eco-socialist-fascists don't want the only viable solution.
Despite the massive environmental vandalism and pollution and slaughtered wildlife in the name of windmills and solar PV, and the even more massive cost in cash, they still only provide very low single % off global primary energy, and no drastic increase is in the offing (a 100% increase in SFA is still SFA), fossil fuels will provide the bulk of the world's energy to 2040 and way beyond.
l354uge said:
GT119 said:
The reality is that more and more car enthusiasts these days have a Golf R, 140i or AMG45 as their dream car, predominately because they delivery instant gratification through speed and acceleration. Will replacing the drivetrains in these cars with performance EV technology really change that kind of driving experience?
Aslong as manufacturers can add in the little fart between shifts people seem to love these days... Mr GrimNasty said:
GT119 said:
In theory, EVs can be produced, operated and disposed of/recycled using entirely renewable energy, let's call it fossil-free motoring, at which point I think the argument that the planet as whole will be meaningfully better-off start to become real.
No they can't.Renewable energy (wind/solar) is so inefficient the only way society could run off it would be to revert to 17th century population levels and standards of living.
This is the lie people are being fed/ swallowing (and that CAGW is actually a real threat).
The only way to zero carbon economy is Nuclear, but for some strange reason the eco-socialist-fascists don't want the only viable solution.
Despite the massive environmental vandalism and pollution and slaughtered wildlife in the name of windmills and solar PV, and the even more massive cost in cash, they still only provide very low single % off global primary energy, and no drastic increase is in the offing (a 100% increase in SFA is still SFA), fossil fuels will provide the bulk of the world's energy to 2040 and way beyond.
GT119 said:
EVs usually don't need a multi-ratio gearbox, so no gear changes as such. i'm sure the manufacturers could add fake gear changes/noise/farts/blips if that's what people want.
You could probably have numerous programs where you could select what type of gearbox, number of gears, engine configuration, cc, cam profile, exhaust and then synthesise the lot with fake noise and hesitations to simulate gear changes along with matching the performance to the set criteria. In reality you could probably select '1989 Pug. 205 1.9 GTi from the list and your EV would adjust its suspension, steering, speakers and power delivery to replicate how it was?
Instead of all those silly 'sport' mode just have a range of 'past masters' to synthesise.
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