RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?

[kambites]

Scuffers said:

kambites said:

The thing is, many people say they want something "different", but there are loads and loads of left-field choices in the 911 market and (almost) everyone still buys a 911.

for example?

(and I am thinking the £70-90K 911 market)

Well apart from obvious things like the XKR, V8V, R8, GTR, etc.; there's cars like the Aero8, Ginetta G60, Evora S, Wiesmann (MF4 is it?), Artega GT, and probably a whole load of others. Some of them are a bit cheaper than the 911, but I don't see that one can discount something from a list of competitors for being "too cheap".

[PastorOfMuppets]

Scuffers said:

Agreed...

the problem these days with a Lotus Carlton would be that all the mainstream makes who would want a barn-storming version of their re-mobile already have one.

Merc - AMG, Audi RS, BMW M, Vauxhall VXR, etc etc...

True, I was thinking the same thing. They've all gotten pretty good at doing it themselves these days.

ETA -

The options that are 'available', for want of a better way to put it, aren't a good fit to my mind. Such as the Nissan tie up that was mentioned way back in the thread - I just can't see that working.

Edited by PastorOfMuppets on Tuesday 10th July 18:00

[otolith]

kambites said:

otolith said:

I think that's more a reflection of his opinion of new cars, not of Evoras. Personally, if I had 90k for a new 911, I'd buy the 40k used Evora and put 50k on my mortgage.

(actually, I'd probably buy a 30k Exige S and put 60k on my mortgage)

I think that's the point though. I don't think many of the kind of people who would buy a current Lotus, are the kinds of people who would buy a brand new car.

That's why Lotus' residuals are so strong, and why Lotus struggle to sell new cars.

I don't think it's likely that only sensible people like Lotus cars. I think the residuals for used Lotus cars are so strong because Lotus haven't been giving those people who did buy one new any compelling reason to trade it in for another.

[kambites]

otolith said:

I don't think it's likely that only sensible people like Lotus cars. I think the residuals for used Lotus cars are so strong because Lotus haven't been giving those people who did buy one new any compelling reason to trade it in for another.

I know very few Elise owners who bought their cars new (one, I think).

Lets face it, VW hardly give Golf buyers a massive incentive to upgrade very often yet they sell in droves and plummet in value.

[MX7]

Scuffers said:

Agreed...

the problem these days with a Lotus Carlton would be that all the mainstream makes who would want a barn-storming version of their re-mobile already have one.

Merc - AMG, Audi RS, BMW M, Vauxhall VXR, etc etc...

Yes, but there are still quality companies like Zagato and RUF, and not so quality companies like Masonary and Kahn, although I know which ones I'd rather see Lotus emulate.

[Scuffers]

kambites said:

otolith said:

I don't think it's likely that only sensible people like Lotus cars. I think the residuals for used Lotus cars are so strong because Lotus haven't been giving those people who did buy one new any compelling reason to trade it in for another.

I know very few Elise owners who bought their cars new (one, I think).

well, I did, 4 times....

MX7 said:

Scuffers said:

Agreed...

the problem these days with a Lotus Carlton would be that all the mainstream makes who would want a barn-storming version of their re-mobile already have one.

Merc - AMG, Audi RS, BMW M, Vauxhall VXR, etc etc...

Yes, but there are still quality companies like Zagato and RUF, and not so quality companies like Masonary and Kahn, although I know which ones I'd rather see Lotus emulate.

Zagato and Ruf don't make cars though, they re-work others, and how many a year? <100 I would guess...

[kambites]

Scuffers said:

kambites said:

otolith said:

I don't think it's likely that only sensible people like Lotus cars. I think the residuals for used Lotus cars are so strong because Lotus haven't been giving those people who did buy one new any compelling reason to trade it in for another.

I know very few Elise owners who bought their cars new (one, I think).

well, I did, 4 times....

Well obviously some do.

[otolith]

kambites said:

I know very few Elise owners who bought their cars new (one, I think).

Lets face it, VW hardly give Golf buyers a massive incentive to upgrade very often yet they sell in droves and plummet in value.

I would say that there's a lot more difference between a MK3 and MK6 Golf than there is between an S1 Elise and the 1.6 litre Elise which was the only thing Lotus were offering until very recently. Even so, I don't think the psychology behind PCP-ing a new Golf every three years is the same as that behind being sold an upgrade on a Boxster or 911. I think the main incentive for many people who regularly buy a new Golf is the upgrade on the 3rd and 4th digits of the registration plate.

[Scuffers]

otolith said:

kambites said:

I know very few Elise owners who bought their cars new (one, I think).

Lets face it, VW hardly give Golf buyers a massive incentive to upgrade very often yet they sell in droves and plummet in value.

I would say that there's a lot more difference between a MK3 and MK6 Golf than there is between an S1 Elise and the 1.6 litre Elise which was the only thing Lotus were offering until very recently. Even so, I don't think the psychology behind PCP-ing a new Golf every three years is the same as that behind being sold an upgrade on a Boxster or 911. I think the main incentive for many people who regularly buy a new Golf is the upgrade on the 3rd and 4th digits of the registration plate.

yup, and a Golf is not really in the same market, it's an everyday practical family box (and half the price of an Elise).

[ESOG]

toppstuff said:

Given the legacy and history of Lotus, producing fun and lightweight sportscars is what they are known for !

How on earth has previous management failed to capitalise on this?

Agree 100% and that is the whole point of my argument right there in BOLD. How on earth indeed have they failed to capitalise on such. The world is shifting towards light weight innovative designs which Lotus has been doing since its inception practically and just when their company could begin to make perfect sense in the eyes of the worlds consumers, they decide its time to jump ship and do the complete opposite!?! It blows my mind!

Lotus should continue to make lightweight performing and innovative designs and market it to the masses with a campaign on efficiency.

I suppose the slated Evora hybrid and the Eterne is a step in that direction, but as for producing a 400hp 2013 elise, well, I just dont see it.

[Mikeyboy]

ESOG said:

toppstuff said:

Given the legacy and history of Lotus, producing fun and lightweight sportscars is what they are known for !

How on earth has previous management failed to capitalise on this?

Agree 100% and that is the whole point of my argument right there in BOLD. How on earth indeed have they failed to capitalise on such. The world is shifting towards light weight innovative designs which Lotus has been doing since its inception practically and just when their company could begin to make perfect sense in the eyes of the worlds consumers, they decide its time to jump ship and do the complete opposite!?! It blows my mind!

Lotus should continue to make lightweight performing and innovative designs and market it to the masses with a campaign on efficiency.

I suppose the slated Evora hybrid and the Eterne is a step in that direction, but as for producing a 400hp 2013 elise, well, I just dont see it.

The answer to the question of why they haven't capitalised is relatively simple. They didn't have the money to do so and in addition they had a CEO with a grand plan that was then where the were going to spend any money they had, which was to try and emulate the Porsche model.

[Tuna]

Mikeyboy said:

The answer to the question of why they haven't capitalised is relatively simple. They didn't have the money to do so and in addition they had a CEO with a grand plan that was then where the were going to spend any money they had, which was to try and emulate the Porsche model.

Problems started long before Bahar. The M250 was already a late realisation that they needed to do something to follow up the success of the Elise, and that was 12 years ago.

[Ozzie Osmond]

kambites said:

I know very few Elise owners who bought their cars new (one, I think).

Well, at a guess I'd venture the number of new buyers is roughly equal to the number of new cars sold.

And the number of used buyers will be the average number of previous owners on all the V5s.

Unless used buyers never sell their cars, which seems a tad unlikely, there will over time always be more used buyers than new buyers of any vehicle. Since the Elise has been around for a very long time...

[unpc]

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest that Lotus could and should be making something like this. They have a history of innovation and the world is wanting something amazingly frugal, lightweight and fun. i think buyers would pay a premium for something that was capable of 80+mpg if it was fun to drive too. They already have the range extender technology and it would grab the headlines better than any "Ferrari beater".

[Scuffers]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Well, at a guess I'd venture the number of new buyers is roughly equal to the number of new cars sold.

And the number of used buyers will be the average number of previous owners on all the V5s.

Unless used buyers never sell their cars, which seems a tad unlikely, there will over time always be more used buyers than new buyers of any vehicle. Since the Elise has been around for a very long time...

don't go bringing logic to this!

[Mikeyboy]

Tuna said:

Problems started long before Bahar. The M250 was already a late realisation that they needed to do something to follow up the success of the Elise, and that was 12 years ago.

No disagreement there, that was what I was trying to say when I wote about them never having sufficient money, but I wasn't really concentrating and the sentence didn't make much sense and conflated the two issues.

[Scuffers]

Mikeyboy said:

Tuna said:

Problems started long before Bahar. The M250 was already a late realisation that they needed to do something to follow up the success of the Elise, and that was 12 years ago.

No disagreement there, that was what I was trying to say when I wote about them never having sufficient money, but I wasn't really concentrating and the sentence didn't make much sense and conflated the two issues.

at the time of the M250 launch, money was not the issue per say.

from what I understand, there were issues between Renault and Lotus Engineering (over the V6) at the time which did nothing to help the project.

if I rememberer right, Lotus had already taken a substantial number of £5K deposits for the M250 when they canned it...

[Mikeyboy]

Scuffers said:

Mikeyboy said:

Tuna said:

Problems started long before Bahar. The M250 was already a late realisation that they needed to do something to follow up the success of the Elise, and that was 12 years ago.

No disagreement there, that was what I was trying to say when I wote about them never having sufficient money, but I wasn't really concentrating and the sentence didn't make much sense and conflated the two issues.

at the time of the M250 launch, money was not the issue per say.

from what I understand, there were issues between Renault and Lotus Engineering (over the V6) at the time which did nothing to help the project.

if I rememberer right, Lotus had already taken a substantial number of £5K deposits for the M250 when they canned it...

Money has always been an issue for Lotus, it has either been badly run, or suffered from under investment whether the owner be Colin Chapman or the Malaysians.
Money was entirely the issue with the M250. If they had launched it, and by the way pretty though it was it wouldn't have sold as it was too basic inside, they wouldn't have been able to sell it the US. thus making it an unprofitable car. some manufacturers can afford to launch a car in only one market, but Lotus couldn't.

[Scuffers]

Mikeyboy said:

Money has always been an issue for Lotus, it has either been badly run, or suffered from under investment whether the owner be Colin Chapman or the Malaysians.
Money was entirely the issue with the M250. If they had launched it, and by the way pretty though it was it wouldn't have sold as it was too basic inside, they wouldn't have been able to sell it the US. thus making it an unprofitable car. some manufacturers can afford to launch a car in only one market, but Lotus couldn't.

don't buy that.

at the time, Lotus were making good money, they could not keep up with Elise orders, they had just spanked £££ on the Autocar w*nkfeast that was the 340r.

Now, I know the M250 was not finished, but being blunt, it was not that far off, and at the ~£40K it was launched at

(worth reading this from the time)

now consider this in the context of the new Exige S (with it's 'basic' interior)....

[anonymous-user]

unpc said:

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest that Lotus could and should be making something like this. They have a history of innovation and the world is wanting something amazingly frugal, lightweight and fun. i think buyers would pay a premium for something that was capable of 80+mpg if it was fun to drive too. They already have the range extender technology and it would grab the headlines better than any "Ferrari beater".

I've said this all along, Lotus Cars are perfectly aligned, with help from Lotus Consulting, to make an "Eco sportscar". Hows about a 1.6 diesel with 170bhp, in something with excellent aero, that weighs 800kg BUT is fun to drive (and i don't mean loads of grip i mean excellent dynamics, great steering feel (no PAS!) etc