Discussion
NDNDNDND said:
sato said:
NDNDNDND said:
I've often wondered if the CSL would have been much better received if they'd gone with a hardcore manual gearbox - like the dog-ring box available in the 500 biposto. That would have been a properly hardcore, motorsport-derived 'box that would have been faster, more enjoyable and more appropriate than the robotised manual SMG, which has always been viewed as a compromise.
I'd say not.The obsession with increasingly hardcore cars is a relatively new thing. That's not to say there were n't track orientated cars pre 2003, but they didn't tend to have the profile that they do now.
So, what's the SMG box supposed to be if not hardcore? Just a crap automatic?
I'll admit 'track day specials' are a relatively recent thing, but to say people are more obsessed with hardcore cars is a bit off. The majority of newer cars have never been more soft core - over servoed, over-assisted, computer controlled and automated…
Mind, I've always reserved a special reserve of vitriol towards the CSL - it was the one of the very first auto-only 'sport cars' and even back then it was clearly the thin-end of the wedge - leading inexorably to a world where Ferrari and Lamborghini only sell automatics...
Its really interesting seeing 16 pages from the same thread arguing for an against the merits +or- the negatives, particularly against a standard E46. There has simply never been any where near as much debate about say the Ferrari standard 360 VS CS or standard 911 vs GT3. Why is it then when BMW does a similar track focused version of its standard car,quite a few of you(as witnessed in this thread) jump up and down denigrating its place and achievement? Just crazy really. There will always be the haters, who will continue hating these cars, but the simple fact is they offer most people palpably different sensory feedback to their standard counterparts. I accept not everyone may be able to perceive this difference, but its not because it doesn't exist. Its just that their senses of perception are simply not that tuned or acute enough to pick this up, and so understandably....they don't get it and of course, curse the financial price tag that associated with it. Similarly not everyone will get an orgasm using the same stimulus right? Its as simple as that, and people can quote all the specs, laptimes etc, they want and they still won't be able to explain the difference.
Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
The counter argument is confirmation bias, in fact confirmation bias is probably a better explanation for both points view.
I think the CSL is being bought partly with one eye on investment, and to me that means it no longer really exists on the car market. It's qualities as a car are essentially irrelevant in that market, but the story of it's qualities (what ever they might be) are crucial. It has a good story, marvellous.
I think the CSL is being bought partly with one eye on investment, and to me that means it no longer really exists on the car market. It's qualities as a car are essentially irrelevant in that market, but the story of it's qualities (what ever they might be) are crucial. It has a good story, marvellous.
stradman said:
Its really interesting seeing 16 pages from the same thread arguing for an against the merits +or- the negatives, particularly against a standard E46. There has simply never been any where near as much debate about say the Ferrari standard 360 VS CS or standard Porsche 911 vs GT3. Why is it then when BMW does a similar track focused version of its standard car,quite a few of you(as witnessed in this thread) jump up and down denigrating its place and achievement? Just crazy really. There will always be the haters, who will continue hating these cars, but the simple fact is they offer most people palpably different sensory feedback to their standard counterparts. I accept not everyone may be able to perceive this difference, but its not because it doesn't exist. Its just that their senses of perception are simply not that tuned or acute enough to pick this up, and so understandably....they don't get it and of course, curse the financial price tag that associated with it. Similarly not everyone will get an orgasm using the same stimulus right? Its as simple as that, and people can quote all the specs, laptimes etc, they want and they still won't be able to explain the difference.
Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
I think you've answered your own question above Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
stradman said:
Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
Good points, although we are talking about a man who took a 10 minute test drive in a CSL through a town, hated it but still bought the car so don't dwell on it VonSenger said:
Ive just done this very thing.
I had a CSL and sold it last year. Bought and used as a track car but when it rose in value I couldnt justify throwing £40k around the track anymore. So, I purchased a cheaper standard m3, and stripped it, set of decent seats, suspension, brakes, tyres, CSL airbox and CSL SMG ecu as well as a few other little bits here and there.
I now have a very capable M3 for under £10k. Not as special but just as capable. Next year I might add Schrick cams and thats me done, a great car for reasonable money. I wouldnt buy a £40k CSL, they just arent worth it, great car but not 4x my 'standard' m3! Crazy money :-(
Bit late in the thread but I remember your car from a trackday at Brands in the summer, very nice bit of kit. I was in a black mr2 being slow!I had a CSL and sold it last year. Bought and used as a track car but when it rose in value I couldnt justify throwing £40k around the track anymore. So, I purchased a cheaper standard m3, and stripped it, set of decent seats, suspension, brakes, tyres, CSL airbox and CSL SMG ecu as well as a few other little bits here and there.
I now have a very capable M3 for under £10k. Not as special but just as capable. Next year I might add Schrick cams and thats me done, a great car for reasonable money. I wouldnt buy a £40k CSL, they just arent worth it, great car but not 4x my 'standard' m3! Crazy money :-(
sjb1970 said:
stradman said:
Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
Good points, although we are talking about a man who took a 10 minute test drive in a CSL through a town, hated it but still bought the car so don't dwell on it The next morning, we were heading off down here to Cornwall. I always used to come down the A303 (I can remember when it was a far nicer road to drive) and once through Wiltshire and into Devon, I started pushing it harder. We were keen to make our van before dark, so once we were crossing the moors and onto more entertaining roads, the penny started to drop and my confidence in the E30 grew. All those cliche rang true and I've been a convert ever since. The problem hadn't been the car, but my expectations and driving style. The S14 engine (like the S54) is one that thrives on revs and needs to be worked to get the best from it. Obviously not an ideal trait for a road car but neither the E30 M3 or E46 CSL were built with the shopping run in mind. As others have said, it's a crying shame when cars like these fall into the hands of the investor/collector and seldom turn a wheel as a result. The prices get driven up and more often, out of reach of the enthusiast, who would just enjoy them for what they are. I love driving my E30 and corny as it sounds, every time is a bit of an event. Every time I park it up, I find myself glancing back for a look at the thing. I just know CSL drivers do the same, as they get under the skin in the same way, despite their shortcomings.
Any excuse for a pic.
stradman said:
Its really interesting seeing 16 pages from the same thread arguing for an against the merits +or- the negatives, particularly against a standard E46. There has simply never been any where near as much debate about say the Ferrari standard 360 VS CS or standard 911 vs GT3. Why is it then when BMW does a similar track focused version of its standard car,quite a few of you(as witnessed in this thread) jump up and down denigrating its place and achievement? Just crazy really. There will always be the haters, who will continue hating these cars, but the simple fact is they offer most people palpably different sensory feedback to their standard counterparts. I accept not everyone may be able to perceive this difference, but its not because it doesn't exist. Its just that their senses of perception are simply not that tuned or acute enough to pick this up, and so understandably....they don't get it and of course, curse the financial price tag that associated with it. Similarly not everyone will get an orgasm using the same stimulus right? Its as simple as that, and people can quote all the specs, laptimes etc, they want and they still won't be able to explain the difference.
Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
A lot more people can obtain seat time in an E46 M3 compared to a Ferrari 360, let alone a 360 CS. That makes for a lot more armchair experts. I've been lucky enough to drive a 360 CS and thought it was a wonderful thing, no idea how it compares to a normal 360 but I expect the 360 lacks drama and that's something bare stats can't convey.Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
It an easy one to answer, those that know just know. It like having the most awesome set of ski's; the average holiday skier would not appreciate the difference.
My father now 72 years of age rates his CSL above his new 991 Turbo 'S' he has raced cars since the 1960's and he can 'really' drive. Sure the 991 will bury the CSL in every way on the track and on the road. But it's the noise, involvement the finesse and subtly that makes the CSL so special. Further evidence? A buddy is a works driver for Ferrari developing F1 cars and his favourite car he owns is . . . . yup, you guessed it an E46 CSL.
I am and OK driver on the track, I visit the ring, done the odd bit of lightweight competition. I can see CSL the appeal threading the corners together, steering on the throttle in a CSL is a delicious experience.
Sure some cars have a mythology built around them that self-perpetuates, this is one of those rare exceptions.
My father now 72 years of age rates his CSL above his new 991 Turbo 'S' he has raced cars since the 1960's and he can 'really' drive. Sure the 991 will bury the CSL in every way on the track and on the road. But it's the noise, involvement the finesse and subtly that makes the CSL so special. Further evidence? A buddy is a works driver for Ferrari developing F1 cars and his favourite car he owns is . . . . yup, you guessed it an E46 CSL.
I am and OK driver on the track, I visit the ring, done the odd bit of lightweight competition. I can see CSL the appeal threading the corners together, steering on the throttle in a CSL is a delicious experience.
Sure some cars have a mythology built around them that self-perpetuates, this is one of those rare exceptions.
Bogracer said:
It an easy one to answer, those that know just know. It like having the most awesome set of ski's; the average holiday skier would not appreciate the difference.
My father now 72 years of age rates his CSL above his new 991 Turbo 'S' he has raced cars since the 1960's and he can 'really' drive. Sure the 991 will bury the CSL in every way on the track and on the road. But it's the noise, involvement the finesse and subtly that makes the CSL so special. Further evidence? A buddy is a works driver for Ferrari developing F1 cars and his favourite car he owns is . . . . yup, you guessed it an E46 CSL.
I am and OK driver on the track, I visit the ring, done the odd bit of lightweight competition. I can see CSL the appeal threading the corners together, steering on the throttle in a CSL is a delicious experience.
Sure some cars have a mythology built around them that self-perpetuates, this is one of those rare exceptions.
Well if those two rate it, it's a done deal. The CSL is officially amazing. The best ever. Would be a.bargain at £200k. My father now 72 years of age rates his CSL above his new 991 Turbo 'S' he has raced cars since the 1960's and he can 'really' drive. Sure the 991 will bury the CSL in every way on the track and on the road. But it's the noise, involvement the finesse and subtly that makes the CSL so special. Further evidence? A buddy is a works driver for Ferrari developing F1 cars and his favourite car he owns is . . . . yup, you guessed it an E46 CSL.
I am and OK driver on the track, I visit the ring, done the odd bit of lightweight competition. I can see CSL the appeal threading the corners together, steering on the throttle in a CSL is a delicious experience.
Sure some cars have a mythology built around them that self-perpetuates, this is one of those rare exceptions.
SidewaysSi said:
Bogracer said:
It an easy one to answer, those that know just know. It like having the most awesome set of ski's; the average holiday skier would not appreciate the difference.
My father now 72 years of age rates his CSL above his new 991 Turbo 'S' he has raced cars since the 1960's and he can 'really' drive. Sure the 991 will bury the CSL in every way on the track and on the road. But it's the noise, involvement the finesse and subtly that makes the CSL so special. Further evidence? A buddy is a works driver for Ferrari developing F1 cars and his favourite car he owns is . . . . yup, you guessed it an E46 CSL.
I am and OK driver on the track, I visit the ring, done the odd bit of lightweight competition. I can see CSL the appeal threading the corners together, steering on the throttle in a CSL is a delicious experience.
Sure some cars have a mythology built around them that self-perpetuates, this is one of those rare exceptions.
Well if those two rate it, it's a done deal. The CSL is officially amazing. The best ever. Would be a bargain at £200k. My father now 72 years of age rates his CSL above his new 991 Turbo 'S' he has raced cars since the 1960's and he can 'really' drive. Sure the 991 will bury the CSL in every way on the track and on the road. But it's the noise, involvement the finesse and subtly that makes the CSL so special. Further evidence? A buddy is a works driver for Ferrari developing F1 cars and his favourite car he owns is . . . . yup, you guessed it an E46 CSL.
I am and OK driver on the track, I visit the ring, done the odd bit of lightweight competition. I can see CSL the appeal threading the corners together, steering on the throttle in a CSL is a delicious experience.
Sure some cars have a mythology built around them that self-perpetuates, this is one of those rare exceptions.
Apparently only 422 right-hand drive cars were produced. It's supply and demand. As an investment, you can enjoy, why not. The complete set of road and track cars would be a 996 GT3 RS, a 360 Challenge Stradale of the same period. The E46 M3 is a wonderful car in its own right. The CSL is the ultimate incarnation of brilliance.
We blink they will be £100,000.
I remember 'not buying' a 73' 911 RS Touring for £45,000. The same applies to a nice original Shelby GT500 Mustang for £16,000. When I was little with my father viewing and 'not buying' an RHD Ferrari Daytona Spyder for £7,500!
We blink they will be £100,000.
I remember 'not buying' a 73' 911 RS Touring for £45,000. The same applies to a nice original Shelby GT500 Mustang for £16,000. When I was little with my father viewing and 'not buying' an RHD Ferrari Daytona Spyder for £7,500!
CSLmarson said:
IdiotRace said:
Bit late in the thread but I remember your car from a trackday at Brands in the summer, very nice bit of kit. I was in a black mr2 being slow!
didn't I lend you some oil at spa in September ?Yes that was probably me at Brands. Marson, thanks for the oil, a real life saver as you know how fussy these things are when it comes to oil. Hope you enjoyed your day, mine was mega and I thoroughly enjoyed Spa, what a circuit!! Although it did end early.......
Edited by VonSenger on Friday 29th January 16:15
stradman said:
Its really interesting seeing 16 pages from the same thread arguing for an against the merits +or- the negatives, particularly against a standard E46. There has simply never been any where near as much debate about say the Ferrari standard 360 VS CS or standard 911 vs GT3. Why is it then when BMW does a similar track focused version of its standard car,quite a few of you(as witnessed in this thread) jump up and down denigrating its place and achievement? Just crazy really. There will always be the haters, who will continue hating these cars, but the simple fact is they offer most people palpably different sensory feedback to their standard counterparts. I accept not everyone may be able to perceive this difference, but its not because it doesn't exist. Its just that their senses of perception are simply not that tuned or acute enough to pick this up, and so understandably....they don't get it and of course, curse the financial price tag that associated with it. Similarly not everyone will get an orgasm using the same stimulus right? Its as simple as that, and people can quote all the specs, laptimes etc, they want and they still won't be able to explain the difference.
Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
It's because an E46 M3 is a very affordable car these days, unlike a CSL or a 360 or a 911. People cannot convince themselves that something based on a car that can now be picked up for £6K can really be that special.Btw I currently own a CSL, and a CS, and a GT3 and have done so for quite a while amongst other metal(including dare I say....an F40-I'm sure Corvetteconvert will be tut tutting), and I can tell you that I perceive ALL these cars to be special and would have difficulty separating them in terms of fun factor. The beauty is that they can deliver this fun factor in different ways. Priceless...whatever their market value is... Although off topic a bit, It's interesting how CorvetteConvert said he drove his friends F40 and then decided to name the F40 as his most overrated car ever. I can tell you this. In order to truly assimilate the feeling or driving experience of an F40 requires quite a few days really. You simply cannot just hop in and drive it for a couple of hours and say now you know it. It doesn't happen that way...
sjb1970 said:
Noise. 7. Unlike many people, my buddy agrees with me that the exhaust was too quiet and the intake noise far too much. Too much like someone left the air filter box off entirely from their company rep inline 6-pot.
...
Practicality. 8. If you could shut the never-ending intake noise out of your head, even for mild overtakes, it was big enough to be able to do the chores.
I simply don't understand this. How can you have too much induction noise when it's of such great quality? I'd much rather have those 6 trumpets wailing away than the exhaust....
Practicality. 8. If you could shut the never-ending intake noise out of your head, even for mild overtakes, it was big enough to be able to do the chores.
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