RE: Lotus unveils 2000hp, £2m Evija

[otolith]

Oilchange said:

otolith said:

GingerPixel said:

This is the first example I could think of and probably isn't the best, but wouldn't it be great if Lotus made something you saw people who enjoyed driving out and about actually, you know, driving?

They do, and have been doing since 1996 1948

Fixed that for you

Well, yeah, but they're not still making it!

[Oilchange]

👍Ye, fair enough,
I read it as a Lotus being driven out and about and if you look hard enough you might see mine (1994)

[PBDirector]

blueg33 said:

Too much of that is wrong for me to respond on my phone.

When you get to your laptop, would you be willing to respond then? The reason I ask is that it seems like a plausible argument to my unknowledgable self so I’d love to hear a counter argument so I can validate my opinion. Cheers!

[MikeDB1]

But is the sort of idiot who buys a hypercar to rev it up and down Knightbridge/Montreux/Monaco/wherever High Street going to buy an EV which is never going to make the noise of a V10/12, real or simulated ? Unfortunately these seem to be the people who can most afford these things.

[RDMcG]

Max_Torque said:

RDMcG said:

As I mentioned earlier, cars at this exalted price point make me feel poor. Additionally cars with the level of performance are well beyond my driving ability to access anywhere close to their limits. My normal track car is a GT3 RS which even at that level is a better car than I am a driver.

This thing will of course utterly obliterate lesser supercars that in turn will obliterate something like an RS.

However, we are so far into the law of diminishing returns, they will all get overtaken on a track day by some nutter in an old E36 BMW, worth £800, who can really drive!

The overlap area for the Venn diagram that includes people with enough cash to spend £2M on a car and the people with enough skill to get an ultra high performance car anywhere near it's actual limits is absolutely minuscule ime........

Absolutely on the money. I know I am an OK amateur and whenever I go to a proper track day there are many with more skill than mine in objectively slower cars. The only way for me to get faster is more practice, not more car.

I am full of admiration for those who have the skills to reach the higher end of the capabilities of these cars.Even if I had the spare cash to buy something like this Lotus it would be wasted on me. No interest at all in parking in exclusive places to show off the car. I would love to see one on a track though.

There are people who do drive supercars on track. I have seen quite a few Carrera GTs at the Nürburgring over the years for instance- even saw one in the armco there. I hope one day some enlightened person will take this thing out and thrash it.

[NRS]

Max_Torque said:

Sure, this "vanity" project should at least break even, and generate interest, but imo, Lotus could do better, as this car is a stepping stone to nowwhere in particular. Instead, they could have taken WAE's skateboard chassis, done their own body work, put in some production spec motors (say from GKN) and a production spec battery pack, and build a £30k "sports car" with say 250 hp, and fun handling, and actually invented a market segment that doesn't yet really exist (the Original Tesla Roadster was almost that car, but at the time, the cost of the batteries and motors pushed up it's price and relegated it to a niche interest at best.

Em, how on earth do you expect anyone to do this currently? Mass produced EVs (as in for EVs) are not really at the £30k range, let alone a sports car version with a far more limited run. It doesn't even work in the petrol car market, which people always post about but don't actually buy in reality. And half of the people posting about the dream 30k car that they'll never buy also post about never buying an EV too, so then you go from a non-existent market into an even smaller number of people it might interest.

[Tuna]

NRS said:

Max_Torque said:

Sure, this "vanity" project should at least break even, and generate interest, but imo, Lotus could do better, as this car is a stepping stone to nowwhere in particular. Instead, they could have taken WAE's skateboard chassis, done their own body work, put in some production spec motors (say from GKN) and a production spec battery pack, and build a £30k "sports car" with say 250 hp, and fun handling, and actually invented a market segment that doesn't yet really exist (the Original Tesla Roadster was almost that car, but at the time, the cost of the batteries and motors pushed up it's price and relegated it to a niche interest at best.

Em, how on earth do you expect anyone to do this currently? Mass produced EVs (as in for EVs) are not really at the £30k range, let alone a sports car version with a far more limited run. It doesn't even work in the petrol car market, which people always post about but don't actually buy in reality. And half of the people posting about the dream 30k car that they'll never buy also post about never buying an EV too, so then you go from a non-existent market into an even smaller number of people it might interest.

Max lives in a strange parallel reality where doing all this is incredibly easy, and it's unbelievable that Lotus are so incompetent to not have done so already.

[Europa1]

I've been lucky enough to own 3 Lotuses: S1 Elise, Europa SE and Evora S (MY2012). They were all fabulous, all a real occasion to drive, all put a smile on my face when I looked at the relevangt one on the driveway.

Sadly circumstances got in the way and I had to become more modest in my transport choices. I would absolutely love Lotus to come up with a car for me, and it saddens me that at the moment that's not going to happen. However, I would be a whole load sadder if Lotus slipped away, trying to survive on the likes of me. I would far rather see the marque survive, if not triumph, even if i can no longer afford to be part of it.

[blueg33]

Tuna said:

NRS said:

Max_Torque said:

Sure, this "vanity" project should at least break even, and generate interest, but imo, Lotus could do better, as this car is a stepping stone to nowwhere in particular. Instead, they could have taken WAE's skateboard chassis, done their own body work, put in some production spec motors (say from GKN) and a production spec battery pack, and build a £30k "sports car" with say 250 hp, and fun handling, and actually invented a market segment that doesn't yet really exist (the Original Tesla Roadster was almost that car, but at the time, the cost of the batteries and motors pushed up it's price and relegated it to a niche interest at best.

Em, how on earth do you expect anyone to do this currently? Mass produced EVs (as in for EVs) are not really at the £30k range, let alone a sports car version with a far more limited run. It doesn't even work in the petrol car market, which people always post about but don't actually buy in reality. And half of the people posting about the dream 30k car that they'll never buy also post about never buying an EV too, so then you go from a non-existent market into an even smaller number of people it might interest.

Max lives in a strange parallel reality where doing all this is incredibly easy, and it's unbelievable that Lotus are so incompetent to not have done so already.

This ^^^^^

[Cold]

PBDirector said:

blueg33 said:

Too much of that is wrong for me to respond on my phone.

When you get to your laptop, would you be willing to respond then? The reason I ask is that it seems like a plausible argument to my unknowledgable self so I’d love to hear a counter argument so I can validate my opinion. Cheers!

Bear in mind that Lotus have been consultants to most major motor manufacturers and have had an input into everything from the Sinclair C5 through to a tank the argument that their area of expertise is narrow is somewhat flawed and only really worth ignoring.

[anonymous-user]

blueg33 said:

Tuna said:

NRS said:

Max_Torque said:

Sure, this "vanity" project should at least break even, and generate interest, but imo, Lotus could do better, as this car is a stepping stone to nowwhere in particular. Instead, they could have taken WAE's skateboard chassis, done their own body work, put in some production spec motors (say from GKN) and a production spec battery pack, and build a £30k "sports car" with say 250 hp, and fun handling, and actually invented a market segment that doesn't yet really exist (the Original Tesla Roadster was almost that car, but at the time, the cost of the batteries and motors pushed up it's price and relegated it to a niche interest at best.

Em, how on earth do you expect anyone to do this currently? Mass produced EVs (as in for EVs) are not really at the £30k range, let alone a sports car version with a far more limited run. It doesn't even work in the petrol car market, which people always post about but don't actually buy in reality. And half of the people posting about the dream 30k car that they'll never buy also post about never buying an EV too, so then you go from a non-existent market into an even smaller number of people it might interest.

Max lives in a strange parallel reality where doing all this is incredibly easy, and it's unbelievable that Lotus are so incompetent to not have done so already.

This ^^^^^

ok smart arses, how many cars have you developed? You might not like or agree with my opinions, but the fact is i have spent the last 25 years developing cars for car manufacturers, which gives me, i'm sorry to say, a significant insight into such things.

I'm not saying it's easy to develop a £30k eSports car, but if you can make a mid sized EV passenger car for around £30k (and you can) then you can also make a eSports car too. In fact, because of the enormously cheaper, shorter and less red-tape encumbered requirements for an EV (as compared to an ICE, i'm going to suggest a eSports car is actually significantly more viable than a ICE Sports car at that price point, and especially so for a smaller manufacturer like Lotus.........

[NRS]

Max_Torque said:

ok smart arses, how many cars have you developed? You might not like or agree with my opinions, but the fact is i have spent the last 25 years developing cars for car manufacturers, which gives me, i'm sorry to say, a significant insight into such things.

I'm not saying it's easy to develop a £30k eSports car, but if you can make a mid sized EV passenger car for around £30k (and you can) then you can also make a eSports car too. In fact, because of the enormously cheaper, shorter and less red-tape encumbered requirements for an EV (as compared to an ICE, i'm going to suggest a eSports car is actually significantly more viable than a ICE Sports car at that price point, and especially so for a smaller manufacturer like Lotus.........

To cut a long answer short - why has no one done it then? There's no competition, so if you did it then you'd be racking in the £ surely?

[Tuna]

Europa1 said:

I've been lucky enough to own 3 Lotuses: S1 Elise, Europa SE and Evora S (MY2012). They were all fabulous, all a real occasion to drive, all put a smile on my face when I looked at the relevangt one on the driveway.

Sadly circumstances got in the way and I had to become more modest in my transport choices. I would absolutely love Lotus to come up with a car for me, and it saddens me that at the moment that's not going to happen. However, I would be a whole load sadder if Lotus slipped away, trying to survive on the likes of me. I would far rather see the marque survive, if not triumph, even if i can no longer afford to be part of it.

I recognise that Lotus has to get over the brand image that has nearly every review having to explain at length how the dynamics crush the competition, but they'd still buy the competition. That's a combination of sweating the 'owner experience' rather than driving experience, building the network and recovering the brand recognition.

The Evora 410 and Exige 410 were absolutely the right steps to take on a limited budget, and the recent rash of reviews of the Evora shows that the platform has taken the fight to Porsche and others. However, it's clear that larger investment is needed to take the next step, and Lotus remain a niche brand.

So something like this - that's being reported in tech websites, mainstream news sites as well as the specialist car media is fantastic news. I can't afford it, but honestly it looks beautiful and holds its own against 'the best of the best' for design and technical specs. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in the flesh and following its launch. Then, when the next cars come out, I hope they get the recognition the marque deserves.

As an aside, it looks like the forced change of engine suppliers means this is the last gasp of the Evora (a shame, as it's matured well), but something similar will take it's place (the same vVA architecture, tweaked for the new powerplant and reskinned??). I hope they keep an Elise level option rather than retreating into stratospheric prices, but don't expect the mythical MX-5 competitor. On the other hand, with Geely's investment could it be possible to find a sweet spot between the expense of the Lotus chassis architecture and the far lower cost of a 'mass produced' platform?

The future seems bright though. Just remember, Lotus - "For the drivers" is not just for the insanely wealthy drivers

[George Smiley]

All that money and they give it such a wk name

[John145]

Max_Torque said:

ok smart arses, how many cars have you developed? You might not like or agree with my opinions, but the fact is i have spent the last 25 years developing cars for car manufacturers, which gives me, i'm sorry to say, a significant insight into such things.

I'm not saying it's easy to develop a £30k eSports car, but if you can make a mid sized EV passenger car for around £30k (and you can) then you can also make a eSports car too. In fact, because of the enormously cheaper, shorter and less red-tape encumbered requirements for an EV (as compared to an ICE, i'm going to suggest a eSports car is actually significantly more viable than a ICE Sports car at that price point, and especially so for a smaller manufacturer like Lotus.........

What projects have you done?

An I30N is 30k for a bit of balance to your fantasy land.

[Tuna]

Max_Torque said:

ok smart arses, how many cars have you developed? You might not like or agree with my opinions, but the fact is i have spent the last 25 years developing cars for car manufacturers, which gives me, i'm sorry to say, a significant insight into such things.

I'm not saying it's easy to develop a £30k eSports car, but if you can make a mid sized EV passenger car for around £30k (and you can) then you can also make a eSports car too. In fact, because of the enormously cheaper, shorter and less red-tape encumbered requirements for an EV (as compared to an ICE, i'm going to suggest a eSports car is actually significantly more viable than a ICE Sports car at that price point, and especially so for a smaller manufacturer like Lotus.........

I don't doubt your technical expertise, but I really doubt your business knowledge when you suggest things like this can 'just happen'.

It's an interesting idea that electric powertrains mean that manufacturers can just 'plug and play' a new car, but as per Lotus' VVA architecture allowing them to just roll off ultra niche cars 'at will', it turns out that it's not actually practical to do so at any scale. The same was claimed of Murray's iStream technology which has not really delivered on the promise of turn-key vehicle production. Both of those were focused on the platform, rather than the powertrain, which suggests that even ICE powertrains have been the least difficult part of a new design for some time. I could be wrong - you're the expert.

As an aside, you crash into threads like this and dismiss other manufacturer's work - it comes across as either supremely arrogant or deeply unprofessional. Are you really surprised at the response it gets?

[otolith]

I don’t think Lotus’s reasons for doing this are engineering reasons, and I don’t think that their product planning is an engineering problem.

[DonkeyApple]

Max_Torque said:

ok smart arses, how many cars have you developed? You might not like or agree with my opinions, but the fact is i have spent the last 25 years developing cars for car manufacturers, which gives me, i'm sorry to say, a significant insight into such things.

I'm not saying it's easy to develop a £30k eSports car, but if you can make a mid sized EV passenger car for around £30k (and you can) then you can also make a eSports car too. In fact, because of the enormously cheaper, shorter and less red-tape encumbered requirements for an EV (as compared to an ICE, i'm going to suggest a eSports car is actually significantly more viable than a ICE Sports car at that price point, and especially so for a smaller manufacturer like Lotus.........

Margin x Volue is not your friend.

[Tuna]

otolith said:

I don’t think Lotus’s reasons for doing this are engineering reasons, and I don’t think that their product planning is an engineering problem.

Agreed.

[anonymous-user]

Meanwhile, Corvette has launched its new 490 bhp, V8, DCT, mid-engine sportscar - with a price that will start under $60,000 in USA.

And, yes, they say it will be built in RHD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psE-pDxXvcQ