Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free?

[Dr Tad Winslow]

I had a leaf for work in my last job. It did about 50-60 miles on a full charge when driven like a human driving a car. If driven like a comatose grandma, it would do 70-80 miles.

I wouldn't have one.

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

kambites said:

For me, as soon as EV's even get close to TCO parity with comparable petrol engines in the market I intend to buy in (second-hand mid-sized hatchbacks with a decent amount of power) it will be a no-brainer to switch simply for the added convenience of being able to charge at home. They don't need to be cheaper, the question is just how much more I'm willing to pay for that added convenience.

For about £1500 I can sell you the ability to refuel an ice car at home. For another £1500 I can make an ice car cost half as much to run on both the fuel you'd put in it at home and fuel you could easily find on forecourts and at gas depots. Filling at home or at any of those places only takes minutes. Following conversion your car will have about double it's current range (if you factor in the ability to still run on petrol). If you sell the car the LPG system could be left on it when you sell it or could be removed and either sold on or used to convert your next car.

A fuel you can find in only 1 in 7 filling stations? And modifications which invalidate the warranty of most new cars...

[kambites]

Dr Tad Winslow said:

I had a leaf for work in my last job. It did about 50-60 miles on a full charge when driven like a human driving a car. If driven like a comatose grandma, it would do 70-80 miles.

Out of interest, what was a 24kWh one or a 30?

[SimonYorkshire]

Shakermaker said:

But for £1500 you still have to pay for the fuel which over here, is a huge cost.

Electricity is considerably cheaper in comparison. And some EVs are now comparable prices to ICE cars on the used market so they are becoming a much better consideration

The fuel (LPG) is half price of petrol and duty is included in it's price. Currently, duty isn't charged on electricity to charge EVs but if EVs become more than a niche some form of taxation on EV use will have to be implemented or by that point government will be losing out on too much revenue they would have otherwise received from duty on ice fuel, revenue that has to be raised if government are to be able to balance the books. If there was no petrol only LPG, everyone currently diving a petrol car would be driving on LPG and duty on LPG would have to be as high as duty on petrol, but this day will never come because LPG will always be a niche. Duty / taxation on electricity doesn't have to be done while EVs are a niche but the real world mpg equivalent of an EV is probably somewhere around 90mpg, so if duty/taxation is applied to EVs on the same scale as duty/taxation on petrol an EV owner could expect their car to cost the equivalent to run as a 90mpg car. At today's duty/taxation levels, an LPG car would only have to manage 45 mpg to cost as much to run as a 90mpg car. If the average car currently does 40mpg and government need to raise T in duty/taxation from sale of fuel used in those cars, then in the future cars are capable of average of 80mpg, if government still need to raise the same in duty/taxes from car users the level of taxation has to double because only half as much fuel is being used.

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

Shakermaker said:

But for £1500 you still have to pay for the fuel which over here, is a huge cost.

Electricity is considerably cheaper in comparison. And some EVs are now comparable prices to ICE cars on the used market so they are becoming a much better consideration

The fuel (LPG) is half price of petrol and duty is included in it's price. Currently, duty isn't charged on electricity to charge EVs but if EVs become more than a niche some form of taxation on EV use will have to be implemented or by that point government will be losing out on too much revenue they would have otherwise received from duty on ice fuel, revenue that has to be raised if government are to be able to balance the books. If there was no petrol only LPG, everyone currently diving a petrol car would be driving on LPG and duty on LPG would have to be as high as duty on petrol, but this day will never come because LPG will always be a niche. Duty / taxation on electricity doesn't have to be done while EVs are a niche but the real world mpg equivalent of an EV is probably somewhere around 90mpg, so if duty/taxation is applied to EVs on the same scale as duty/taxation on petrol an EV owner could expect their car to cost the equivalent to run as a 90mpg car. At today's duty/taxation levels, an LPG car would only have to manage 45 mpg to cost as much to run as a 90mpg car. If the average car currently does 40mpg and government need to raise T in duty/taxation from sale of fuel used in those cars, then in the future cars are capable of average of 80mpg, if government still need to raise the same in duty/taxes from car users the level of taxation has to double because only half as much fuel is being used.

You have to balance any saving with the difficulty finding it though. For example, according to https://www.filllpg.co.uk & http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg/find-a-fillin... , there are no LPG stations in Colchester,

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

Why would you want a 50kW charger at home, when you would charge overnight?

The other reason battery degradation isn't a major issue is simple - pretty much every EV has an 8 year or more warranty (or the battery is leased), so it simply isn't a concern for the owners.

You wouldn't have chance to charge overnight if you came home from work and decided to nip out to a restaurant 20 miles away.

I could probably buy a pencil with a couple year warranty, pencil manufacturers know a pencil isn't likely to be used much and know the sums regarding warranty claims versus enticing further customers due to the warranty make them more overall profit. You don't often drive more than 20 miles in your EV, in the future if more people get rid of ices and use EVs in the same way as they used ices more batteries we'll see more worn out batteries.

The reason some batteries are leased is because they are so expensive, there would be no need to lease a pencil.

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

Why would you want a 50kW charger at home, when you would charge overnight?

The other reason battery degradation isn't a major issue is simple - pretty much every EV has an 8 year or more warranty (or the battery is leased), so it simply isn't a concern for the owners.

You wouldn't have chance to charge overnight if you came home from work and decided to nip out to a restaurant 20 miles away.

I could probably buy a pencil with a couple year warranty, pencil manufacturers know a pencil isn't likely to be used much and know the sums regarding warranty claims versus enticing further customers due to the warranty make them more overall profit. You don't often drive more than 20 miles in your EV, in the future if more people get rid of ices and use EVs in the same way as they used ices more batteries we'll see more worn out batteries.

The reason some batteries are leased is because they are so expensive, there would be no need to lease a pencil.

Why wouldn't you have time to charge? I'd have plenty of time while I waited for the other half to get ready..... Or I'd do what I do at the moment - get a cab so I can have a drink...

Batteries are leased because customers had concerns about reliability, so offering a lease deals with those concerns.

[Dr Tad Winslow]

kambites said:

Out of interest, what was a 24kWh one or a 30?

24kWh

[pherlopolus]

SimonYorkshire said:

EV batteries don't have to have a lifetime warranty, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that if we're realistic the batteries do have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles before they become degraded and we could expect such degradation to occur much sooner than for an ice engine. EV batteries use the same technology as laptop batteries, if we charge a laptop to full and discharge it fully every day we might expect the battery to last about a year. If an EV has a range of 100 miles and it is driven 100 miles per day and it's battery uses the same technology as a laptop battery this equates to a severely degraded battery after only 36000 miles. I don't buy much into 'way the batteries are managed' between laptops/EVs making as much difference to battery life as you claim but even if this does have a major effect and doubles battery life this will still only equate to 72000 miles. You could expect to drive an ice vehicle for several times the 36000 miles without noticing any drop in performance, particularly not a drop in available range.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 12:02

But thats bks, and we have said so many times. There are leaf batteries, in taxi's that have been rapid charged 3 times a day, that still have 90+% capacity left after 100k+ miles.

If the average ICE car hasn't lost 10% of it's MPG by the time it reaches 100k miles I would be very surprised.

[kambites]

There's plenty of data out there on real-world battery capacity drop rate of EVs. Teslas seem to average around 10% capacity loss per 100k miles, Leafs more like 30%. Certainly significant, especially in the case of the Leaf.

[pherlopolus]

kambites said:

There's plenty of data out there on real-world battery capacity drop rate of EVs. Teslas seem to average around 10% capacity loss per 100k miles, Leafs more like 30%. Certainly significant, especially in the case of the Leaf.

I sit corrected.

10% over 100k seams reasonable, 30% no so much. Ok if you swap cars every 2-3 years, not so much in the second hand market - which probably is reflected in the low resale value.

A new battery pack is about £5k, and is actually free if you lose a certain percentage of capacity within 60,000 miles. In the same time I would think (based on 100k miles in my 50mpg diesel car) I would have saved about £10k on fuel if I had used a leaf - so would still have been about £5k ahead (even not accounting for lower running costs generally)

I haven't got an EV Currently, but in 18 months I am swapping cars again, so hopefully there will be something estate sized with a 200 mile range by then

[kambites]

I wonder what average mileage a UK car covers before being scrapped? 100k? 150k? I doubt more than a tiny percentage make it to 200k.

[rscott]

kambites said:

I wonder what average mileage a UK car covers before being scrapped? 100k? 150k? I doubt more than a tiny percentage make it to 200k.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/

In 2015, the average age of a car when scrapped was 13.9 years. So average mileage could well be under 150,000 miles (based on the 8k p/a figure mentioned before).

[anonymous-user]

kambites said:

I wonder what average mileage a UK car covers before being scrapped? 100k? 150k? I doubt more than a tiny percentage make it to 200k.

And it's way worse than that.

Remind me what a car with say 120Kmiles on the clock is worth these days? (it might look perfect, but people know well enough at that sort of mileage it is approaching the end of its engineered life (usually 150kmiles) and at any point could go expensively (and terminally) pop......

I can't believe (well, actually i can) Simon is still going on about LPG! It's like someone complaining not many people buy black and white Cathode Ray TVs any more! (not so much "missed it's time" as "ancient history".... ;-)

[Ares]

Max_Torque said:

kambites said:

I wonder what average mileage a UK car covers before being scrapped? 100k? 150k? I doubt more than a tiny percentage make it to 200k.

And it's way worse than that.

Remind me what a car with say 120Kmiles on the clock is worth these days? (it might look perfect, but people know well enough at that sort of mileage it is approaching the end of its engineered life (usually 150kmiles) and at any point could go expensively (and terminally) pop......

I can't believe (well, actually i can) Simon is still going on about LPG! It's like someone complaining not many people buy black and white Cathode Ray TVs any more! (not so much "missed it's time" as "ancient history".... ;-)

I had an LPG Range Rover 12yrs ago. It ran on LPG for less than 10% of the time as I could never find filling stations that had LPG, and that had it in stock - there were 3 within a 15 miles radius, and 1 of those has stopped selling it.

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

You have to balance any saving with the difficulty finding it though. For example, according to https://www.filllpg.co.uk & http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg/find-a-fillin... , there are no LPG stations in Colchester,

Seems to me there are several places to fill with LPG on the outskirts of Colchester. In the map search box enter Colchester https://www.filllpg.co.uk/index.php?page=lpg.php#
Or if you only want to use your car for nipping around locally and never pass any filling stations, could have a bulk tank fitted at home and refuel at home. Not that an LPG user would ever have to have much concern about running out of LPG, if he runs out of LPG his car will still have 300 mile range on petrol.

I just went on Zapmap to check EV charging points around Colchester, there are a similar number of EV charging points as LPG filling points but while any LPG filling point can fill an LPG tank for 300 mile range in minutes, only 1 of the EV charging points is 50kw, the others are only 7kw. Of course, we can calculate how long it takes to charge a battery of X kwh using a charger of Y kw, it's very simply X/Y. So if a Leaf has a 30kwh battery and you charge it using a 7kw charger it will take at least 4 hours 17 minutes (if the charging process was 100 efficient which it is not and if the battery could be topped off at the same speed as the bulk of the charge which it cannot). That would be 4 hours 17 mins parked in the Asda car park or on some forecourt. The LPG stations are on main roads and can fill an LPG tank from empty to full in minutes... we don't even need to go into tank capacity etc because the filling process is so quick it doesn't make a great deal of difference how big the tank is or how much range the tank can provide. Ahh but of course you always take 5 hours shopping in Asda, or even if you only spend 10 mins in Asda it's nice to be able to plug in for those 10 mins to give your car enough extra juice to travel 3 miles, all very convenient for you? And you only ever potter around in Colchester, you never need to recharge on a forecourt, but if you did need to recharge on a forecourt you'd quite like to take in the scenery and have a few coffees during the 4 hours it took the car to charge (for 70 mile range)?

[austinsmirk]

pherlopolus said:

SimonYorkshire said:

EV batteries don't have to have a lifetime warranty, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that if we're realistic the batteries do have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles before they become degraded and we could expect such degradation to occur much sooner than for an ice engine. EV batteries use the same technology as laptop batteries, if we charge a laptop to full and discharge it fully every day we might expect the battery to last about a year. If an EV has a range of 100 miles and it is driven 100 miles per day and it's battery uses the same technology as a laptop battery this equates to a severely degraded battery after only 36000 miles. I don't buy much into 'way the batteries are managed' between laptops/EVs making as much difference to battery life as you claim but even if this does have a major effect and doubles battery life this will still only equate to 72000 miles. You could expect to drive an ice vehicle for several times the 36000 miles without noticing any drop in performance, particularly not a drop in available range.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 12:02

But thats bks, and we have said so many times. There are leaf batteries, in taxi's that have been rapid charged 3 times a day, that still have 90+% capacity left after 100k+ miles.

If the average ICE car hasn't lost 10% of it's MPG by the time it reaches 100k miles I would be very surprised.

here you go, an old article on the very subject. And on an old leaf too, not a new model with better range.

https://www.zap-map.com/electric-taxi-company-cloc...


I've recently read of a leaf taxi having done 175k miles with no issue, other than needing wiper blades and tyres.

[Shakermaker]

SimonYorkshire said:

You wouldn't have chance to charge overnight if you came home from work and decided to nip out to a restaurant 20 miles away.

I could probably buy a pencil with a couple year warranty, pencil manufacturers know a pencil isn't likely to be used much and know the sums regarding warranty claims versus enticing further customers due to the warranty make them more overall profit. You don't often drive more than 20 miles in your EV, in the future if more people get rid of ices and use EVs in the same way as they used ices more batteries we'll see more worn out batteries.

The reason some batteries are leased is because they are so expensive, there would be no need to lease a pencil.

But I could charge the car all day at work as well, if I knew I was going out in the evening to somewhere 20 miles away, get to work, charge the car, go home and still have the range to go to the restaurant, and then charge it up whilst I'm eating my meal, drive home and put it back on charge overnight ready for the next day.

[SimonYorkshire]

Max_Torque said:

And it's way worse than that.

Remind me what a car with say 120Kmiles on the clock is worth these days? (it might look perfect, but people know well enough at that sort of mileage it is approaching the end of its engineered life (usually 150kmiles) and at any point could go expensively (and terminally) pop......

I can't believe (well, actually i can) Simon is still going on about LPG! It's like someone complaining not many people buy black and white Cathode Ray TVs any more! (not so much "missed it's time" as "ancient history".... ;-)

Every one of your posts about LPG highlights the fact you jumped ship. At one time you say you were involved with development of factory fit LPG systems, if you were to have any pride in your profession at that time it would mean you'd have to have believed in running vehicles on LPG. Now it seems you're plugging EVs. I've mentioned on the other thread a few times the possible viability of running cars with ice engines on hydrogen in the event nuclear fusion power becomes available. Perhaps if that happens and there's a thread about H cars you'll be equally as happy to get involved with H cars and criticise pro EV people's points?

As well you will know, whether a car is past it or not at 150k miles depends on the model of car. I have converted many immaculate looking Mercs etc that are still in perfectly good running order after covering many more miles than 150k. A Reliant Robin engine is likely to be worn out well before 150k. There isn't much call for converting Reliant Robins to LPG but there is a lot of call for converting Nissan ELgrands, Lexus, Mercs, etc etc to LPG. If these cars aren't worth much, good, it means they can be had for the fraction of the price of an EV and overall cost of ownership including fuel cost, depreciation (or lack of) and parts can be cheaper than running an EV. If you tell me you'd rather journey in a Leaf than an S class I won't believe you.

The LPG conversion business is getting busier, LPG will still be around for a long time and will still be cheaper than petrol. It helps the LPG trade that diesels are now frowned on and it helps the LPG trade that people's eyes are being opened to other alternative ways of fuelling a vehicle - The increasing existence of EVs leads to more people not only considering electricity as a fuel but also considering LPG. A lot of previous diesel car owners will be looking to hybrid (petrol / EV) vehicles. While at the moment I wouldn't advise conversion of some of the direct injection engines which some of the hybrids have, LPG tech is coming to allow conversion of di engines more simply and using less parts than for any previous type of lpg conversion on carb / port injected engines, all that is needed to convert di engines in the way I recommend is a fuel shunting device to allow petrol di injectors to be fed with high pressure liquid lpg.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 16:14

[SimonYorkshire]

Shakermaker said:

But I could charge the car all day at work as well, if I knew I was going out in the evening to somewhere 20 miles away, get to work, charge the car, go home and still have the range to go to the restaurant, and then charge it up whilst I'm eating my meal, drive home and put it back on charge overnight ready for the next day.

Sure you could - if work and the restaurant both have EV charging sockets. Of course, you might consider changing jobs or visiting a different restaurant if they don't. You might want to check to make sure the restaurant will reserve a parking slot next to a charger when you book the table as well, and if not, well maybe go to your second favourite restaurant instead... just have to make sure that is within range of your EV. I suppose even if the restaurant doesn't have a charging spot for you or the other restaurant isn't within range, at least you'll be able to find somewhere to fill - knock on anyone's door, or find a charging forecourt (within range) where hopefully the charger will be a fast one (but is more likely a slow one), if fast one you'll only need to park for a few hours to charge up enough to make it to the restaurant and then again on the way home.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 16:08