Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free?

[InitialDave]

Or you just drive something else. I would assume most people with EVs are at least a 2 car household, I don't think we're quite at the stage where only having an EV would work for most people.

Though the only time in the last two months I've actively needed to get one of the other cars out was because I managed to get a properly bad (in one side and out the other) puncture on the Zoe that rendered it unusable for a couple of days.

[Shakermaker]

SimonYorkshire said:

Shakermaker said:

But I could charge the car all day at work as well, if I knew I was going out in the evening to somewhere 20 miles away, get to work, charge the car, go home and still have the range to go to the restaurant, and then charge it up whilst I'm eating my meal, drive home and put it back on charge overnight ready for the next day.

Sure you could - if work and the restaurant both have EV charging sockets. Of course, you might consider changing jobs or visiting a different restaurant if they don't. You might want to check to make sure the restaurant will reserve a parking slot next to a charger when you book the table as well, and if not, well maybe go to your second favourite restaurant instead... just have to make sure that is within range of your EV. I suppose even if the restaurant doesn't have a charging spot for you or the other restaurant isn't within range, at least you'll be able to find somewhere to fill - knock on anyone's door, or find a charging forecourt (within range) where hopefully the charger will be a fast one (but is more likely a slow one), if fast one you'll only need to park for a few hours to charge up enough to make it to the restaurant and then again on the way home.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 16:08

Work have EV charging sockets

Whilst a specific restaurant may not have EV, they are becoming more common in town centres and car parks, the kind of place you leave car.

Maybe this isnt the case in Yorkshire yet, but its certainly becoming the case here in Sussex

[Mr2Mike]

Max_Torque said:

And it's way worse than that.

Remind me what a car with say 120Kmiles on the clock is worth these days?

A pretty decent amount if it's still relatively new.

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

You have to balance any saving with the difficulty finding it though. For example, according to https://www.filllpg.co.uk & http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg/find-a-fillin... , there are no LPG stations in Colchester,

Seems to me there are several places to fill with LPG on the outskirts of Colchester. In the map search box enter Colchester https://www.filllpg.co.uk/index.php?page=lpg.php#
Or if you only want to use your car for nipping around locally and never pass any filling stations, could have a bulk tank fitted at home and refuel at home. Not that an LPG user would ever have to have much concern about running out of LPG, if he runs out of LPG his car will still have 300 mile range on petrol.

I just went on Zapmap to check EV charging points around Colchester, there are a similar number of EV charging points as LPG filling points but while any LPG filling point can fill an LPG tank for 300 mile range in minutes, only 1 of the EV charging points is 50kw, the others are only 7kw. Of course, we can calculate how long it takes to charge a battery of X kwh using a charger of Y kw, it's very simply X/Y. So if a Leaf has a 30kwh battery and you charge it using a 7kw charger it will take at least 4 hours 17 minutes (if the charging process was 100 efficient which it is not and if the battery could be topped off at the same speed as the bulk of the charge which it cannot). That would be 4 hours 17 mins parked in the Asda car park or on some forecourt. The LPG stations are on main roads and can fill an LPG tank from empty to full in minutes... we don't even need to go into tank capacity etc because the filling process is so quick it doesn't make a great deal of difference how big the tank is or how much range the tank can provide. Ahh but of course you always take 5 hours shopping in Asda, or even if you only spend 10 mins in Asda it's nice to be able to plug in for those 10 mins to give your car enough extra juice to travel 3 miles, all very convenient for you? And you only ever potter around in Colchester, you never need to recharge on a forecourt, but if you did need to recharge on a forecourt you'd quite like to take in the scenery and have a few coffees during the 4 hours it took the car to charge (for 70 mile range)?

There are zero LPG stations in Colchester. One in Marks Tey, down the A120 and one in Wesley. A round trip to either from the town centre is 45 minutes at least.
There are EV points in several of the supermarkets, so I could top up there. Or the football ground.. or the gym. - EV users can top up easily at all of these so won't need to continually fully charge their vehicles from empty..

Or just charge at home,, overnight, like much of the population can.

As for an LPG tank at home - no thanks. Big expense and a loss of drive space. If I were to have any tank, it'd be oil for heating...

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

Max_Torque said:

And it's way worse than that.

Remind me what a car with say 120Kmiles on the clock is worth these days? (it might look perfect, but people know well enough at that sort of mileage it is approaching the end of its engineered life (usually 150kmiles) and at any point could go expensively (and terminally) pop......

I can't believe (well, actually i can) Simon is still going on about LPG! It's like someone complaining not many people buy black and white Cathode Ray TVs any more! (not so much "missed it's time" as "ancient history".... ;-)

Every one of your posts about LPG highlights the fact you jumped ship. At one time you say you were involved with development of factory fit LPG systems, if you were to have any pride in your profession at that time it would mean you'd have to have believed in running vehicles on LPG. Now it seems you're plugging EVs. I've mentioned on the other thread a few times the possible viability of running cars with ice engines on hydrogen in the event nuclear fusion power becomes available. Perhaps if that happens and there's a thread about H cars you'll be equally as happy to get involved with H cars and criticise pro EV people's points?

As well you will know, whether a car is past it or not at 150k miles depends on the model of car. I have converted many immaculate looking Mercs etc that are still in perfectly good running order after covering many more miles than 150k. A Reliant Robin engine is likely to be worn out well before 150k. There isn't much call for converting Reliant Robins to LPG but there is a lot of call for converting Nissan ELgrands, Lexus, Mercs, etc etc to LPG. If these cars aren't worth much, good, it means they can be had for the fraction of the price of an EV and overall cost of ownership including fuel cost, depreciation (or lack of) and parts can be cheaper than running an EV. If you tell me you'd rather journey in a Leaf than an S class I won't believe you.

The LPG conversion business is getting busier, LPG will still be around for a long time and will still be cheaper than petrol. It helps the LPG trade that diesels are now frowned on and it helps the LPG trade that people's eyes are being opened to other alternative ways of fuelling a vehicle - The increasing existence of EVs leads to more people not only considering electricity as a fuel but also considering LPG. A lot of previous diesel car owners will be looking to hybrid (petrol / EV) vehicles. While at the moment I wouldn't advise conversion of some of the direct injection engines which some of the hybrids have, LPG tech is coming to allow conversion of di engines more simply and using less parts than for any previous type of lpg conversion on carb / port injected engines, all that is needed to convert di engines in the way I recommend is a fuel shunting device to allow petrol di injectors to be fed with high pressure liquid lpg.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 16:14

Ever thought he might have 'jumped ship' from your beloved LPG because the large manufacturers he worked with decided it wasn't a sensible technology to continue with? Perhaps they saw the issued with regulatory approval (something not applicable to retrofitted systems).

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

You have to balance any saving with the difficulty finding it though. For example, according to https://www.filllpg.co.uk & http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg/find-a-fillin... , there are no LPG stations in Colchester,

Seems to me there are several places to fill with LPG on the outskirts of Colchester. In the map search box enter Colchester https://www.filllpg.co.uk/index.php?page=lpg.php#
Or if you only want to use your car for nipping around locally and never pass any filling stations, could have a bulk tank fitted at home and refuel at home. Not that an LPG user would ever have to have much concern about running out of LPG, if he runs out of LPG his car will still have 300 mile range on petrol.

I just went on Zapmap to check EV charging points around Colchester, there are a similar number of EV charging points as LPG filling points but while any LPG filling point can fill an LPG tank for 300 mile range in minutes, only 1 of the EV charging points is 50kw, the others are only 7kw. Of course, we can calculate how long it takes to charge a battery of X kwh using a charger of Y kw, it's very simply X/Y. So if a Leaf has a 30kwh battery and you charge it using a 7kw charger it will take at least 4 hours 17 minutes (if the charging process was 100 efficient which it is not and if the battery could be topped off at the same speed as the bulk of the charge which it cannot). That would be 4 hours 17 mins parked in the Asda car park or on some forecourt. The LPG stations are on main roads and can fill an LPG tank from empty to full in minutes... we don't even need to go into tank capacity etc because the filling process is so quick it doesn't make a great deal of difference how big the tank is or how much range the tank can provide. Ahh but of course you always take 5 hours shopping in Asda, or even if you only spend 10 mins in Asda it's nice to be able to plug in for those 10 mins to give your car enough extra juice to travel 3 miles, all very convenient for you? And you only ever potter around in Colchester, you never need to recharge on a forecourt, but if you did need to recharge on a forecourt you'd quite like to take in the scenery and have a few coffees during the 4 hours it took the car to charge (for 70 mile range)?

There are zero LPG stations in Colchester. One in Marks Tey, down the A120 and one in Wesley. A round trip to either from the town centre is 45 minutes at least.
There are EV points in several of the supermarkets, so I could top up there. Or the football ground.. or the gym. - EV users can top up easily at all of these so won't need to continually fully charge their vehicles from empty..

Or just charge at home,, overnight, like much of the population can.

As for an LPG tank at home - no thanks. Big expense and a loss of drive space. If I were to have any tank, it'd be oil for heating...

Alright, so say there's an LPG station just down the road on the A120 and one in Wesley (and in a lot of other surrounding towns too..). The range of the LPG car means you can nip around just the town centre passing all those town centre EV charging points and not have to plug in your car every time you nip to the gym or Asda, you can do that for a long time before you need to refuel and during that time isn't it likely you're going to nip down the A120 or another main road or through Wesley or another surrounding town with LPG on the forecourt? And if you only ever use an EV for nipping around inside Colchester you're probably not saving much on fuel compared to even if you ran a V12 on petrol...

As only about half of the population can. And even out of that 'about half' some with off-street parking seem to prefer parking on the road anyway... fancy flower pots etc on the drive (in the way of getting a car on the drive) and a drive that was designed at a time when cars were about 2 foot narrower than today's cars.

Big expense for an LPG tank at home, compared to paying for a high rate EV charger to be fitted? And I'm not sure if you were one of those citing fitting solar panels etc at home which could be used to charge an EV?

rscott said:

Ever thought he might have 'jumped ship' from your beloved LPG because the large manufacturers he worked with decided it wasn't a sensible technology to continue with? Perhaps they saw the issued with regulatory approval (something not applicable to retrofitted systems).

He might well have jumped ship for that reason, we could ask him. It makes no difference to my points.
Perhaps vehicle manufacturers saw issues with regulatory approval for LPG systems, I think that unlikely but again it doesn't effect my points. I would also add to this that I would think manufacturers would have a bigger problem getting vehicles carrying a ton of lithium based batteries to pass tests than a vehicle with an LPG tank etc, so your point is probably a mute one.
I'm not really as interested in 'factory' LPG converted vehicles as I am in the aftermarket scene. Sure I fix 'factory' converted vehicles but the systems they employ haven't in the past proven to be as good as aftermarket systems and every factory converted vehicle is one less for the aftermarket scene to convert.

Shakermaker said:

Work have EV charging sockets

Whilst a specific restaurant may not have EV, they are becoming more common in town centres and car parks, the kind of place you leave car.

Maybe this isnt the case in Yorkshire yet, but its certainly becoming the case here in Sussex

What if work didn't have a charging socket?

What happens when there are more EVs and chances are you pull up at a restaurant hoping to plug in except 3 EVs are already charging so all the charging bays are taken? You cannot just say 'add more bays' because each bay already uses 7kw.. the restaurant may only have a domestic supply, which could even just be a 60amp 13.8kw supply... In this case adding more bays involves a new power feed to be connected to the restaurant and if there are a few places people visit and park EVs in that same area the whole area power supply may need to be upgraded.

InitialDave said:

Or you just drive something else. I would assume most people with EVs are at least a 2 car household, I don't think we're quite at the stage where only having an EV would work for most people.

Though the only time in the last two months I've actively needed to get one of the other cars out was because I managed to get a properly bad (in one side and out the other) puncture on the Zoe that rendered it unusable for a couple of days.

Pretty much my point. Nothing wrong with a short range long charge time EV as a second car or for people who only ever use a car for a short commute and nipping down the shops, but the implications of those points are not going to convince 1 car households to switch to a pure EV anytime soon, a hybrid yes, but not a pure EV.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 19:15

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

Alright, so say there's an LPG station just down the road on the A120 and one in Wesley (and in a lot of other surrounding towns too..). The range of the LPG car means you can nip around just the town centre passing all those town centre EV charging points and not have to plug in your car every time you nip to the gym or Asda, you can do that for a long time before you need to refuel and during that time isn't it likely you're going to nip down the A120 or another main road or through Wesley or another surrounding town with LPG on the forecourt? And if you only ever use an EV for nipping around inside Colchester you're probably not saving much on fuel compared to even if you ran a V12 on petrol...

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 3rd October 19:15

So I can use the enhanced range of my LPG wondering on to save pennies by spending 45 minutes going to get LPG from a garage on one of the most complained about A roads in Essex. Or spend 45 minutes going to Weeley (not Wesley...) and back again..

Or, while I do my weekly shop (which takes an hour) spend another 15 minutes having a cup of coffee and a cake (paid for by the savings on fuel..) filling up my EV.

Why would I need to plug in every time anyway? If I can top it up every night at home, I'd rarely need these topups when out, they're just convenient..

As an aside..

Was talking to a colleague about EVs today - he's getting rid of his Audi S4 soon as it's become a money pit (cam chain change is due, which is an engine out job, plus it needs £1k of suspension work..).
He's desperately hoping the S4 holds on until the Model 3 comes out - he's already worked out it'll be more than capable of replicating every journey he's made in the last 2 years and he can charge at home. It'll be massively cheaper to run and will have equal or better performance too on a 10 mile each way commute.
He can't see any circumstances where a 200 mile range will be inadequate - having 2 6 year old boys means any long journeys involve regular stops anyway...

[RobDickinson]

There are Teslas with 300k on the clock still over 90% battery.

Currently we improve lithium batteries by a consistent 7% energy density a year. In 10 years we'll double the density and the price will be far far lower.

This will mean the model s of the day will either have a 700 plus mile range or weigh 400kgs less, so about 1800kgs.

Also mean small city EVs will be cheap and light and simple.

This is the future.

[pherlopolus]

RobDickinson said:

There are Teslas with 300k on the clock still over 90% battery.

Currently we improve lithium batteries by a consistent 7% energy density a year. In 10 years we'll double the density and the price will be far far lower.

This will mean the model s of the day will either have a 700 plus mile range or weigh 400kgs less, so about 1800kgs.

Also mean small city EVs will be cheap and light and simple.

This is the future.

and simon will have designed a small lpg generator to extend the range, that costs less than plugging it into a charging point

[austinsmirk]

Interesting development in the paper yesterday...

Electric car owners 'can drive for free by letting energy firms use battery'

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/e...


Let me just clarify, Simon. I believe I'll spend £192 to drive 8000 miles in an EV per annum. v £1200 previously in diesel.

In theory I could be making money on driving an EV. I get yr passion for gas, but clearly its a dying marketplace for the mass market. lets be honest, it never took off really anyway.

[Shakermaker]

SimonYorkshire said:

Shakermaker said:

Work have EV charging sockets

Whilst a specific restaurant may not have EV, they are becoming more common in town centres and car parks, the kind of place you leave car.

Maybe this isnt the case in Yorkshire yet, but its certainly becoming the case here in Sussex

What if work didn't have a charging socket?

What happens when there are more EVs and chances are you pull up at a restaurant hoping to plug in except 3 EVs are already charging so all the charging bays are taken? You cannot just say 'add more bays' because each bay already uses 7kw.. the restaurant may only have a domestic supply, which could even just be a 60amp 13.8kw supply... In this case adding more bays involves a new power feed to be connected to the restaurant and if there are a few places people visit and park EVs in that same area the whole area power supply may need to be upgraded.

Then at the moment, as many of us are saying in this thread, an EV might not be the right choice. But it is certainly possible for a lot of people, at the moment,

You also seem to be making something of an assumption that people with EVs will suddenly lose the ability to pre-plan their lives? I mean, it is quite an easy habit to get into - you get home, park the car, plug the lead in, and go into the house. Easy. And then in the morning, you go out of the house, unplug the lead, get in the car and go to work.

Before you go on holiday and take a long trip, do you plan to make sure you have the car filled with petrol and LPG the night before you go? And do you know you need to stop somewhere on the way to refuel maybe, or have lunch?

Top tip - if all the EV bays are full when you arrive, block them in with your EV so they have to ask you to move when they leave and you then know you can hop straight on it. Everyone knows that this will become a thing, hence why EV bays are out of the way.. I'm encouraging EV owners to park like dicks...

Also, final point: The question at the top of this thread is "Would you wait to get it FOR FREE" - to which the answer is a resounding yes.

If I had to wait a long time and then pay the same as using an ICE car - then of course, no, I probably would not.

Edited by Shakermaker on Wednesday 4th October 09:54

[SimonYorkshire]

Just had a quick read of posts since my last visit and this will be an equally quick reply, not much time this morning.

Shakermaker said:

Also, final point: The question at the top of this thread is "Would you wait to get it FOR FREE" - to which the answer is a resounding yes.

If I had to wait a long time and then pay the same as using an ICE car - then of course, no, I probably would not.

The title of this thread / poll is 'Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free'. This does not mention EVs. The question is misleading. And far from a resounding 'yes' to even this question only 55% of people answered 'yes'. It would have been more appropriate to ask a set of questions, which would include:
Q1. Would you wait 45 minutes to get free fuel if you could keep your existing car
Q2. Would you wait 45 minutes to get free fuel if you had to swap your existing car to an EV (and pay to change your car to an EV).

Q1 would force people to give a very generalised answer. It should really be broken down to
Q1A If you weren't expecting it, someone just approached you on a forecourt and offered to pay for the fuel if you just waited there 45 minutes.
Q1B If you were expecting it and therefore went to bed 45 mins earlier and got up 45 mins earlier because you knew you'd be stuck refuelling for 45mins.
Q1C If you were not expecting it and happened to be in a rush (perhaps in the context of possibly missing some important career changing meeting).

My Q1's haven't even mentioned EV's so far. Q1B is fair because the poll would still be misleading if it suggested you could recharge an EV at home in 45 minutes... You can't charge an EV to a significant proportion of it's range at home in 45 minutes (or even at most EV charging points) as well you know. But, if you like, we could change the 45 mins in the questions to 8 hours?

Q2 could be similarly broken down...
Q2A You have to switch your car to an EV (and pay for this). You now always have to wait AT LEAST 45 minutes and usually very much longer, because the 45 min charge is only available at a small number of charge points out of the small total number of charge points. E.g. You'll usually be charging at home and that charge will take hours, it will also take hours at most charging places while you're out on the road, and then unless you spent £100k on a Tesla you only have 70 miles range from such a long charge which you'll probably quickly use before having to charge for several hours again.
Q2B You are expecting it but you still have to accept all the negatives of Q1A
Q2C You are expecting it and regardless of you being in a rush you still have to accept all the negatives of Q1A. Too bad if you used most of the range of your EV and it needs a charge but you want to use the car.

We know the answer to Q2.. Even for pro EV people on this thread the answer is 'No' because most pro EV people on this thread intend on keeping an ice car!

Too late now to start any meaningful standalone thread/poll on the subject, most people on this thread are pro EV, some already own one (most of those own an ice too), all those people are going to know about such poll and vote pro EV while the majority of people (who I suggest would vote 'no') simply ignore the thread/poll because it is a thread/poll on a subject of which they have little interest so they will simply ignore it. So, if you want to get a taster for the general PH take on EVs, you need to go on existing vehicle specific threads and pose my set of questions and none of us here should be allowed to comment.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th October 11:34

[Shakermaker]

This is PH, where 52% is considered to be a resounding yes as we know. Yes I have managed to get Brexit into this topic even though it wasn't asked for.

I should have said - a resounding yes from me personally.

[SimonYorkshire]

Shakermaker said:

This is PH, where 52% is considered to be a resounding yes as we know. Yes I have managed to get Brexit into this topic even though it wasn't asked for.

I should have said - a resounding yes from me personally.

Hehe, I dunno about 52% being a resounding 'yes' vote in any context. I think it's currently at 56%, I'd still say that's not resounding though.
Pro EVers on this thread must realise this thread is and always was going to be frequented by mostly pro EV people? There are plenty of threads about stuff like Morris Minor bumpers that most PH users simply ignore because they're not into Morris Minors but if we had a poll on that thread 'do we like Moggy Minors' we'd expect a 100% yes vote. This thread was started as an offshoot of the 'EVs does everyone think they're great' thread - It seems to me everyone who was on that thread got to know about this thread and since most were pro EV on that thread will have voted pro EV on this thread too. Perhaps there some private messages floating around inviting people on that thread to vote, but I know I wasn't informed about this thread! Hardly a fair poll, not even a very honest none misleading question in the poll. To me it is far more telling that the answer to this poll isn't very close to 100% 'yes' - Only people who happened to click on a subject they were probably not really interested in will have balanced the yes/no ratio, which is a bit like me clicking on a moggy minor poll and voting that I don't like moggy minors much.

Another point - If only about half of people voted yes, and if only about half of people have off street parking (home charging capability), and home charging is the only thing that seems to justify EV ownership to pro EVers here, this points to only 1 in 4 people eventually owning an EV anyway. But I suggest that if people were asked a none misleading question and the poll wasn't pro EV biased from the outset, far fewer than 50% would have voted yes anyway. If 25% of people were to vote yes in a fair unbiased poll (and I think that figure generous), this would point to only 1/8th of people having an EV in the long term... Still a significant raise from 0.3% I grant you.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th October 11:55

[98elise]

SimonYorkshire said:

Shakermaker said:

This is PH, where 52% is considered to be a resounding yes as we know. Yes I have managed to get Brexit into this topic even though it wasn't asked for.

I should have said - a resounding yes from me personally.

Hehe, I dunno about 52% being a resounding 'yes' vote in any context. I think it's currently at 56%, I'd still say that's not resounding though.
Pro EVers on this thread must realise this thread is and always was going to be frequented by mostly pro EV people? There are plenty of threads about stuff like Morris Minor bumpers that most PH users simply ignore because they're not into Morris Minors but if we had a poll on that thread 'do we like Moggy Minors' we'd expect a 100% yes vote. This thread was started as an offshoot of the 'EVs does everyone think they're great' thread - It seems to me everyone who was on that thread got to know about this thread and since most were pro EV on that thread will have voted pro EV on this thread too. Perhaps there some private messages floating around inviting people on that thread to vote, but I know I wasn't informed about this thread! Hardly a fair poll, not even a very honest none misleading question in the poll. To me it is far more telling that the answer to this poll isn't very close to 100% 'yes' - Only people who happened to click on a subject they were probably not really interested in will have balanced the yes/no ratio, which is a bit like me clicking on a moggy minor poll and voting that I don't like moggy minors much.

Another point - If only about half of people voted yes, and if only about half of people have off street parking (home charging capability), and home charging is the only thing that seems to justify EV ownership to pro EVers here, this points to only 1 in 4 people eventually owning an EV anyway. But I suggest that if people were asked a none misleading question and the poll wasn't pro EV biased from the outset, far fewer than 50% would have voted yes anyway. If 25% of people were to vote yes in a fair unbiased poll (and I think that figure generous), this would point to only 1/8th of people having an EV in the long term... Still a significant raise from 0.3% I grant you.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th October 11:55

Why would it be frequented mostly by pro EV people?

You're anti EV yet your one of the most prolific posters. Any EV thread is normally filled by anti-EV posters who just want to tell you how EV's are pointless because they don't suit THEIR specific situation.

No other type of car discussion (with the exception of any top gear thread) attracts so many people who want to post comments about something they have no interest in.

To get >50% on a car enthusiasts forum seems like a minor miracle to me.

Edited to add....

I did think of posting a similar thread asking. "If you could re-fuel your car at home overnight, would you bother going to petrol stations"

For me this is a no brainier. If I could fill at home I would. I need to re-fill 2 or 3 times a week, and that means an earlier start on those days. I would only need to visit a petrol station on very long journeys, which for me is about once every 4-5 years.

Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 4th October 12:50

[SimonYorkshire]

98elise said:

Why would it be frequented mostly by pro EV people?

You're anti EV yet your one of the most prolific posters. Any EV thread is normally filled by anti-EV posters who just want to tell you how EV's are pointless because they don't suit THEIR specific situation.

No other type of car discussion (with the exception of any top gear thread) attracts so many people who want to post comments about something they have no interest in.

To get >50% on a car enthusiasts forum seems like a minor miracle to me.

Edited to add....

I did think of posting a similar thread asking. "If you could re-fuel your car at home overnight, would you bother going to petrol stations"

For me this is a no brainier. If I could fill at home I would. I need to re-fill 2 or 3 times a week, and that means an earlier start on those days. I would only need to visit a petrol station on very long journeys, which for me is about once every 4-5 years.

Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 4th October 12:50

I would have expected a thread about EVs to be frequented mostly by people who had an interest in EVs, in accordance with my Moggy Minor point this seems common sense.

If you're telling me that in EV threads (that I haven't seen) a lot of people are saying they don't like EV's because an EV wouldn't suit THEIR specific situation, this also backs up my point that a lot of people wouldn't want an EV.

The above few lines further call the results of this poll into question.

This will probably raise a few laughs but I'm not actually anti EV! But (and I wouldn't argue much if someone said this was due to some aspect of my nature!) on the EV threads I have seen it seems pro EV people foresee an imminent future where EVs will be suitable for most people and most people will be happy to let go of ice vehicles to replace them with EVs - I take exception to this type of claim and am inclined to comment where I disagree on threads which touch on areas of subjects that I do know a lot about (alternative fuels and people's take on them). Electricity isn't LPG (my subject) but I know enough about people's take on LPG to know that many people's concerns are about availability, range, etc. This is baring in mind that for an average of about £1300 I can convert a petrol car to LPG and it still keeps the full ability to run on petrol, range usually effectively doubled. I can tell you that if filling with LPG took 45 minutes (never mind several hours) on some forecourt or in some car park (even a supermarket carpark etc) I might be out of business even if it was only 45 minutes while the owner was asleep in bed. EVs don't offer the ability to still be able to run on petrol and in the view of a lot of people any charger that isn't a supercharger will involve such long charge times that it might just as well not exist except at home and at work. I do hope your EV works well for you though, and you do seem to have thought it through and happy with the implications.

The only pro EV point that I think holds any water at all is the ability to charge up overnight at home, fine if you never need to drive more than the car's range before returning home for a charge that takes all night. But given the comparatively short range and long recharge time (any recharge is long, it doesn't bother you when you're asleep in bed but it would bother you mid-route to somewhere even if using one of the comparatively few 50kw superchargers happens to be handily along your route) I think for a lot of ice owners this would make for a car that is compromised in one of the most important aspects of what they want a car fundamentally to be able to do.

I accept that if you offered ice drivers free fuel if only they have to wait 45 minutes to refuel a lot of them would say 'yes', but this isn't really one of the options. What is really on offer is very cheap fuel today, if the driver doesn't mind waiting hours for a recharge every time they really need to recharge, this charge available at a range of refuelling places that are fewer than ice refuelling places, this charge that will offer substantially reduced range compared to their ice car (and hence not only much longer fill-ups but also more fill-ups), if only they sell their ice car and buy an EV (which might be comparatively expensive / higher value than their ice car), with the knowledge that if enough other people also replace an ice car with an EV EV's will start to cost as much to run as their ice car did anyway (or who is paying road duty that government need in revenue). One of the points people considering converting to LPG often raise is that if enough people switch to LPG it's price will go up... and they're absolutely correct, but LPG will always be a niche. EVs are fine while they're a niche; if people's (ice owners) concerns about range, availability and length of refuel time are consistent between those considering an LPG conversion and those considering buying an EV, this will surely have an effect on the numbers of people who decide to switch to an EV... especially given all the points above including the point on price of LPG conversion versus price of swapping to an EV. A thing that is currently preventing a lot of people from converting their ice to LPG is the fact that they run a diesel, a lot of those running diesels wouldn't buy a pure EV but would buy a hybrid. Even a hybrid is likely to achieve only the same or less mpg than their current diesel on a long drive - I expect to be converting a lot of hybrids to LPG, not particularly for those who only drive 20 miles to work but for those who currently run diesels to do a few more miles than that, and I expect a lot of diesel drivers won'y bother with a hybrid for a long time but will switch to a pure petrol ice and convert it to LPG.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th October 14:23

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

I would have expected a thread about EVs to be frequented mostly by people who had an interest in EVs, in accordance with my Moggy Minor point.

If you're telling me that in EV threads (that I haven't seen) a lot of people are saying they don't like EV's because an EV wouldn't suit THEIR specific situation, this also backs up my point that a lot of people wouldn't want an EV.

This will probably raise a few laughs but I'm not actually anti EV! But (and I wouldn't argue much if someone said this was due to some aspect of my nature!) on the EV threads I have seen it seems pro EV people foresee an imminent future where EVs will be suitable for most people and most people will be happy to let go of ice vehicles to replace them with EVs - I take exception to this type of claim and am inclined to comment where I disagree on threads which touch on areas of subjects that I do know a lot about (alternative fuels and people's take on them). Electricity isn't LPG (my subject) but I know enough about people's take on LPG to know that many people's concerns are about availability, range, etc. This is baring in mind that for an average of about £1300 I can convert a petrol car to LPG and it still keeps the full ability to run on petrol, range usually effectively doubled. EVs don't offer the ability to still be able to run on petrol and in the view of a lot of people any charger that isn't a supercharger will involve such long charge times that it might just as well not exist except at home and at work. I do hope your EV works well for you though, and you do seem to have thought it through and happy with the implications.

The only pro EV point that I think holds any water at all is the ability to charge up overnight at home, fine if you never need to drive more than the car's range before returning home for a charge that takes all night. But given the comparatively short range and long recharge time (any recharge is long, it doesn't bother you when you're asleep in bed but it would bother you mid-route to somewhere even if using one of the comparatively few 50kw superchargers happens to be handily along your route). I think for a lot of ice owners this would make for a car that is compromised in one of the most important aspects of what they want a car to be able to do. I accept that if you offered ice drivers free fuel if only they have to wait 45 minutes to refuel a lot of them would say 'yes', but this isn't really what's on offer. What is really on offer is very cheap fuel today, if the driver doesn't mind waiting hours for a recharge every time they really need to recharge, this charge available at a range of refuelling places that are fewer than ice refuelling places, this charge that will offer substantially reduced range compared to their ice car (and hence not only much longer fill-ups but also more fill-ups), if only they sell their ice car and buy an EV (which might be comparatively expensive to their ice car), with the knowledge that if enough other people also replace an ice car with an EV EV's will start to cost as much to run as their ice car did anyway.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 4th October 13:52

There are other reasons than availability which dissuade people from converting to LPG though - loss of boot/spare wheel space, voiding of warranty, if the car is new/nearly new it's quite likely to be leased (so LPG isn't an option then).

I'm guessing the majority of your customers are those who drive well in excess of the average annual mileage - after all, they're the only ones likely to benefit much from an LPG conversion financially. Hence you're probably exposed to a distorted view of car usage.

No one's claiming they'll suit everyone, but the simple fact is the typical EV now (Leaf or similar) has more than sufficient range to cope with the average daily mileage in this country.

I don't think anyone other than yourself believes that EV vehicles will be taxed equally with ICE any time soon, as you suggest. Remove the duty and tax from ICE fuel and the cost putting 300 miles-worth of petrol in my car is about £20 (based on Shell's figure that 66% of the cost of fuel is tax/duty).
Putting 100kW into a Tesla at home would cost under £12 before tax (based on unit pricing from bulb.co.uk for my postcode) - assuming peak rate and no off peak charging.

So when you suggest EVs will cost as much to run as an ICE car, you're suggesting the government will actually be taxing EVs more heavily than ICE?

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

There are other reasons than availability which dissuade people from converting to LPG though - loss of boot/spare wheel space, voiding of warranty, if the car is new/nearly new it's quite likely to be leased (so LPG isn't an option then).

I'm guessing the majority of your customers are those who drive well in excess of the average annual mileage - after all, they're the only ones likely to benefit much from an LPG conversion financially. Hence you're probably exposed to a distorted view of car usage.

No one's claiming they'll suit everyone, but the simple fact is the typical EV now (Leaf or similar) has more than sufficient range to cope with the average daily mileage in this country.

I don't think anyone other than yourself believes that EV vehicles will be taxed equally with ICE any time soon, as you suggest. Remove the duty and tax from ICE fuel and the cost putting 300 miles-worth of petrol in my car is about £20 (based on Shell's figure that 66% of the cost of fuel is tax/duty).
Putting 100kW into a Tesla at home would cost under £12 before tax (based on unit pricing from bulb.co.uk for my postcode) - assuming peak rate and no off peak charging.

So when you suggest EVs will cost as much to run as an ICE car, you're suggesting the government will actually be taxing EVs more heavily than ICE?

Right, so I (who talk to the general public who own the full range of ice cars with the full range of ways people use vehicles) about alternative fuels have a distorted view of what people want from a car while you who might only potter around Colchester and don't often venture out along the main roads in and out of Colchester and don't generally talk to the public on the subject has a very good grasp of what people want from a car, even though EV uptake is only 0.3% even though they offer 'free' fuel?

Everyone who does 20 miles per day on average would be happy if their car only had 21 miles range?

I don't think EVs will be taxed equally to ices anytime soon because I think EVs will remain a niche for a long time and while they're a niche government won't need to address taxation.

Based on your own figures an EV offers a real world fuel saving of about 60%. Except your own figures implied a Tesla's consumption rate that will allow the Tesla to achieve it's maximum range, which will probably be at a speed of something like 20mph. At 60mph you would see that real world saving diminish dramatically, and then you'd be asking an ice owner who's car might be worth £(I'll let you fill in this blank) to shell out £100k for the Tesla. Your own kwh consumption rate in your Leaf would go up dramatically (and your range diminish) if you took your Leaf out of the motorway, then you'd soon be hoping to pass the 50kw charger for a 45 minute charge and not have to stop at one of the usual 7kw chargers for a 4+ hour charge.

[babatunde]

SimonYorkshire said:

Right, so I (who talk to the general public who own the full range of ice cars with the full range of ways people use vehicles) about alternative fuels have a distorted view of what people want from a car while you who might only potter around Colchester and don't often venture out along the main roads in and out of Colchester and don't generally talk to the public on the subject has a very good grasp of what people want from a car, even though EV uptake is only 0.3% even though they offer 'free' fuel?

Everyone who does 20 miles per day on average would be happy if their car only had 21 miles range?

I don't think EVs will be taxed equally to ices anytime soon because I think EVs will remain a niche for a long time and while they're a niche government won't need to address taxation.

Based on your own figures an EV offers a real world fuel saving of about 60%. Except your own figures implied a Tesla's consumption rate that will allow the Tesla to achieve it's maximum range, which will probably be at a speed of something like 20mph. At 60mph you would see that real world saving diminish dramatically, and then you'd be asking an ice owner who's car might be worth £(I'll let you fill in this blank) to shell out £100k for the Tesla. Your own kwh consumption rate in your Leaf would go up dramatically (and your range diminish) if you took your Leaf out of the motorway, then you'd soon be hoping to pass the 50kw charger for a 45 minute charge and not have to stop at one of the usual 7kw chargers for a 4+ hour charge.

If I can get all the EV advocates on here to agree that LPG is the future will you shut up and stop sprouting lines and lines of rubbish?

P.S if when in the pub every other person tells you you are wrong then walks away, it's not usually because you have a superior argument.

[anonymous-user]

SimonYorkshire said:

because I think EVs will remain a niche for a long time

Can we make sure we capture this ^^ and revisit it in, oh, say, 2 years time......... ;-)