Discussion
Slade Alive said:
One, Muller, not Mueller as you keep calling him, will fail in his efforts and you'll say you were right all along. Of course, the truth will be so far from your dumb analysis as to why he failed, but you won't have it any other way and you're the type of person based on your comments here who'll go out of his way championing your dumb 'I told you so's'. There will no gloating from me. If you actually want to read my reply again instead of just typing stuff in a blind rage you will see that I have friends who will be tossed out of work and will not be able to pay their mortgages if Saab go bust. That will not give me any pleasure or cause for gloating.
Two, if Muller does succeed you'll still harp on about how Saab's future is precariously balanced and they'll be lucky to survive with an alleged by you Dutch playboy running the show.
Damn right I will, because once more for the cheap seats, the people at the back and the people who are hard of reading... HE HASN'T GOT THE MONEY. As someone on here mentioned on here a few pages back the figures that he has raised so far are what Audi would call an accounting error and BMW spend on catering each year. You need billions. How many more times, BILLIONS.
As for my observations. My source in China knows a great deal more regarding Chinese business etiquette, in particular automotive, than anything you've read on the Internet and posted here, and he is with some reservation confident Saab will survive with Chinese input. Being that he is in 'the know' both automotive and in dealings with Chinese government I'd rather listen to him than take your best guesses you've strung together because of some apparent dislike I understand not that you have for a person you've never met and could not possibly know to speak of as you do.
My other sources much closer to home share my view, which is it is a tough ask, but none of them have made any reference to Muller not being suitable for the task in hand. Not even when I've asked them. One of my contacts, knows him better than you do I'd wager.
17 pages in and suddenly you know people who know Muller and help run the Chinese motor industry. I know people in motor industry in this country who sell Saabs at main dealers and sell them as used cars and they are bricking themselves & the people I know and how things effect the motor trade in this country is what concerns me. You, a few pages back, claimed to work in the motor trade with Saab, so do you work for the only showroom or used car site that is making any money selling them? Because if you do its a miracle as you clearly have no grasp of how the motor trade works or how even how much costs to manufacturer anything these days.
Even if Muller is a playboy con act taking a wage out of Saab, so what as long as he gets the job done? Do you work for free? Aside from contributing scaremongering and rubbish here that is.
Fair point but there is earning a wage and earning what John Tower was paying himself. As for what I do for living, its motor trade related and I'm guessing I earn a fair bit more than you, judging by the fiscal judgement you have shown on here.
But Toad, with you around I'll just sit back and wish Muller and Saab well. If it goes pear shaped at least we'll have the entertainment value of your slanderous accusations to look forward to. What???
As for my observations, I would not subject myself to your scrutiny for fear of looking stupid whilst you rally up the nay saying troops with your excellent efforts to discredit a Dutch playboy tryer, apparently. I have said before, you really need to lay off the medication before you post.
Two, if Muller does succeed you'll still harp on about how Saab's future is precariously balanced and they'll be lucky to survive with an alleged by you Dutch playboy running the show.
Damn right I will, because once more for the cheap seats, the people at the back and the people who are hard of reading... HE HASN'T GOT THE MONEY. As someone on here mentioned on here a few pages back the figures that he has raised so far are what Audi would call an accounting error and BMW spend on catering each year. You need billions. How many more times, BILLIONS.
As for my observations. My source in China knows a great deal more regarding Chinese business etiquette, in particular automotive, than anything you've read on the Internet and posted here, and he is with some reservation confident Saab will survive with Chinese input. Being that he is in 'the know' both automotive and in dealings with Chinese government I'd rather listen to him than take your best guesses you've strung together because of some apparent dislike I understand not that you have for a person you've never met and could not possibly know to speak of as you do.
My other sources much closer to home share my view, which is it is a tough ask, but none of them have made any reference to Muller not being suitable for the task in hand. Not even when I've asked them. One of my contacts, knows him better than you do I'd wager.
17 pages in and suddenly you know people who know Muller and help run the Chinese motor industry. I know people in motor industry in this country who sell Saabs at main dealers and sell them as used cars and they are bricking themselves & the people I know and how things effect the motor trade in this country is what concerns me. You, a few pages back, claimed to work in the motor trade with Saab, so do you work for the only showroom or used car site that is making any money selling them? Because if you do its a miracle as you clearly have no grasp of how the motor trade works or how even how much costs to manufacturer anything these days.
Even if Muller is a playboy con act taking a wage out of Saab, so what as long as he gets the job done? Do you work for free? Aside from contributing scaremongering and rubbish here that is.
Fair point but there is earning a wage and earning what John Tower was paying himself. As for what I do for living, its motor trade related and I'm guessing I earn a fair bit more than you, judging by the fiscal judgement you have shown on here.
But Toad, with you around I'll just sit back and wish Muller and Saab well. If it goes pear shaped at least we'll have the entertainment value of your slanderous accusations to look forward to. What???
As for my observations, I would not subject myself to your scrutiny for fear of looking stupid whilst you rally up the nay saying troops with your excellent efforts to discredit a Dutch playboy tryer, apparently. I have said before, you really need to lay off the medication before you post.
Slade Alive said:
Most stuff you wrote in bold has no bearing in fact. Pretty much par for the course with you is it? Toad, you might not have realised it yet but I have no reason to boast about who I know, what I know, what I do for a living, or how much I earn. I'm not the one who needs their comments corroborating by such.
Yes you do because you were the one who said that you know people, who know someone, who know Muller and that your wifes cousin's nephew once sold a car to someone who works in China. I have never boasted about what I do for a living, I just told you that like a lot people on this thread I have enough experience in the motor trade to make a informed judgement as to what is going on. I take my information from trusted newspaper and business press websites. You seem to just swallow any propaganda that Muller, who remember has lied about events in the recent past such as the invoicing 'glitch', the money from Hawtai being paid and production re-start dates, at face value.
Whilst it's hard for casual observers to be positive about Saab's future, it's dead easy for some to make themselves appear wise to the facts riding the waves of an apparent disaster by posting their negative personal opinions as to what why and how it all went wrong when clearly at best they're relying only on what seems will be the obvious outcome of an unavoidable disaster. Nothing you've shown me tells me you know anymore than me. What you have shown me has nothing to do with Saab's future. If they make it you'll have been wrong. If they don't you'll proclaim to have been right about all the crap you've posted. Either way both scenarios are nauseating to say the least - and say the least is what I'm trying hard to do in this topic given your unfounded rather unnecessary comments which really do require some redress.
See above really, I only comment on information that I'm getting from reliable sources. If I'm wrong & Saab are still a functioning company this time next year, not only will I apologise but I will stand with my feet in a bucket of custard and post the picture on here. If they aren't I expect you to do the same thing. Deal?Yes you do because you were the one who said that you know people, who know someone, who know Muller and that your wifes cousin's nephew once sold a car to someone who works in China. I have never boasted about what I do for a living, I just told you that like a lot people on this thread I have enough experience in the motor trade to make a informed judgement as to what is going on. I take my information from trusted newspaper and business press websites. You seem to just swallow any propaganda that Muller, who remember has lied about events in the recent past such as the invoicing 'glitch', the money from Hawtai being paid and production re-start dates, at face value.
Whilst it's hard for casual observers to be positive about Saab's future, it's dead easy for some to make themselves appear wise to the facts riding the waves of an apparent disaster by posting their negative personal opinions as to what why and how it all went wrong when clearly at best they're relying only on what seems will be the obvious outcome of an unavoidable disaster. Nothing you've shown me tells me you know anymore than me. What you have shown me has nothing to do with Saab's future. If they make it you'll have been wrong. If they don't you'll proclaim to have been right about all the crap you've posted. Either way both scenarios are nauseating to say the least - and say the least is what I'm trying hard to do in this topic given your unfounded rather unnecessary comments which really do require some redress.
And haven't you been to the doctor yet about your stomach yet? I'm concerned, I think the medicine he's giving you is making you paranoid.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 18th May 17:18
And just a quickie. According to the latest accounts published by Saab Spyker AB, Muller paid himself 1.2 million euros last year including a performance bonus of 500000 euros. He has also awarded himself a share bonus of another 500000 euros.
The AGM of Saab Spyker AB is on Thursday, when an attempt will be made to make Muller at least give some of this back. He will also have to answer questions about the 'sale' of the Spyker part of the business to an English coach building company.
This information is fact & is freely available within the public domain. Google ttela.se and it will take you to a page of a major Swedish newspaper whose main story at the moment is the Saab crisis. If you use google it will give you a translate option & all will become clear. Just in case this is just my opinion, eh SladeAlive?
The AGM of Saab Spyker AB is on Thursday, when an attempt will be made to make Muller at least give some of this back. He will also have to answer questions about the 'sale' of the Spyker part of the business to an English coach building company.
This information is fact & is freely available within the public domain. Google ttela.se and it will take you to a page of a major Swedish newspaper whose main story at the moment is the Saab crisis. If you use google it will give you a translate option & all will become clear. Just in case this is just my opinion, eh SladeAlive?
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 18th May 17:53
And we're off again.
In an interview with the chairman ofDa Nang, sorry Khe Shah, Pang Da, a few more things have surfaced about this deal.
If when they company inspects the Saab factory they don't like what they see, they can pull the plug. This being the same factory that the previous partner HowNow were 'aghast' at when they inspected it. Victor Muller has told them that the production line has been switched off for three weeks. Its been switched off for seven. But I'm sure with all the flying backward and forwards he's been doing that's just slipped his mind. I mean, he's never distorted truth before has he?
It is in the MoU that the production line will be up and running within one week of their payment being wired across. Which again, according to factual sources, was Tuesday. If the production line isn't up and running by Tuesday 25th next week, they can pull the plug.
Now what I don't know (see sladealive I don't know everything) is how long it will take a company like Saab to re-start production after nearly two months lay-off, anyone care to make an educated guess? I would but I'm trying not to make guesses, been told off about that.
. However what I will presume, is that judging by the language in the interview, Kung Fu Panda expect their cars to be built straight away. Which will leave the rest of the worlds dealer network where in the queue with regard to supply having already had no producton for any increasingly rare outstanding orders?
Then we come to the question of the suppliers. If you hadn't been paid in two months, you were laying off staff (as Lear who make the seats for Saab did yesterday) and you suddenly hear that Saabs new deal will be null & void if the lines aren't running in a week what would you say to Mr Muller? I'd get all Stewie on his ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUj39TvFOg&fea...
No money, no parts, production line doesn't re-start, deal is cancelled. However unlike the last deal, KungPo have already paid Muller a lot of money. Which would make them probably the biggest creditor at the moment. Which means that if the firm goes into adminstration, they will be at the front of the queue when it comes to all that lovely tooling and IP.
But of course and I would hate to be second guessing here would I sladealive?, the CEO of SumYungGuy wouldn't have let that little nugget of information deliberatly would he? Of course not. I mean, he wouldn't have let slip information that would enable all the suppliers who are owed money to basically blackmail Muller now would he? Because if they make the cars he's quids in, if they don't make the cars he's the biggest creditor? But no, thats probably just me and I know nothing about the motor industry.
sladealive? All the information with regards to the contract is freely available on the internet, especially on ttela.se. The interview itself is from China Car Times.
In an interview with the chairman of
If when they company inspects the Saab factory they don't like what they see, they can pull the plug. This being the same factory that the previous partner HowNow were 'aghast' at when they inspected it. Victor Muller has told them that the production line has been switched off for three weeks. Its been switched off for seven. But I'm sure with all the flying backward and forwards he's been doing that's just slipped his mind. I mean, he's never distorted truth before has he?
It is in the MoU that the production line will be up and running within one week of their payment being wired across. Which again, according to factual sources, was Tuesday. If the production line isn't up and running by Tuesday 25th next week, they can pull the plug.
Now what I don't know (see sladealive I don't know everything) is how long it will take a company like Saab to re-start production after nearly two months lay-off, anyone care to make an educated guess? I would but I'm trying not to make guesses, been told off about that.
. However what I will presume, is that judging by the language in the interview, Kung Fu Panda expect their cars to be built straight away. Which will leave the rest of the worlds dealer network where in the queue with regard to supply having already had no producton for any increasingly rare outstanding orders?Then we come to the question of the suppliers. If you hadn't been paid in two months, you were laying off staff (as Lear who make the seats for Saab did yesterday) and you suddenly hear that Saabs new deal will be null & void if the lines aren't running in a week what would you say to Mr Muller? I'd get all Stewie on his ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUj39TvFOg&fea...
No money, no parts, production line doesn't re-start, deal is cancelled. However unlike the last deal, KungPo have already paid Muller a lot of money. Which would make them probably the biggest creditor at the moment. Which means that if the firm goes into adminstration, they will be at the front of the queue when it comes to all that lovely tooling and IP.
But of course and I would hate to be second guessing here would I sladealive?, the CEO of SumYungGuy wouldn't have let that little nugget of information deliberatly would he? Of course not. I mean, he wouldn't have let slip information that would enable all the suppliers who are owed money to basically blackmail Muller now would he? Because if they make the cars he's quids in, if they don't make the cars he's the biggest creditor? But no, thats probably just me and I know nothing about the motor industry.
sladealive? All the information with regards to the contract is freely available on the internet, especially on ttela.se. The interview itself is from China Car Times.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Thursday 19th May 15:42
Pistachio said:
http://inside.saab.com/saab-9-4x-is-in-production/
http://www.chinacartimes.com/2011/05/19/pangdas-ce...
Not quite sure how the news that the 9-4x is in production is relevent? The important production line, the one from which the cars for China will come, is still gathering cobwebs in Trollhatten. However I suppose in some ways it is. At least it will be something for the dealers to sell while they're waiting for the Chinese to take all the 9-5 production.http://www.chinacartimes.com/2011/05/19/pangdas-ce...
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Thursday 19th May 16:00
Slade Alive said:
Toad, earlier on this year many were invited to the launch of the new 9-5. Seems you were not one of them. If you were you'd know there's a freshly installed production facility put into an empty factory in Trollhattan in a 10 week timescale which spits out new 9-5 at some fair lick. I'm more surprised your mates who work there have missed this little tidbit of info when keeping you up to date.
A very attractive young lady spoke fluent English as she chaperoned many around the facility in an open top train with little rubber wheels. She showed how a flat sheet of steel was picked off its hanger then pressed by another machine into a shape. Several of these different shapes were married together making a bare shell in the shape of a new 9-5. Eventually, and moving along without boring you to death, a whole car was spat out at the end of a production line, of which several models were there to be test driven by those visiting. To say many visiting were impressed with the facility and the 9-5's spat out would be an understatement. But you weren't there. Were your mates? They seem lacking in info it seems.
As for the production line stopped. It was running 3 weeks ago (as mentioned somewhere in this topic) just after the first deal was struck with the Chinese, though stopped again. More of your silly scaremongering.
And you accuse me of not getting my facts right? The production line did not re-start on Monday 9th May as Antonov's cheque did not clear in time before the Chinese deal went belly up. Before this they changed some of the tooling to reflect the changes to the model year 2012. They did not produce any cars.
Dude, what is it with you? You sure do seem to have a very sharp axe to grind
Well 'bro', as I mentioned before because of my history with Saab (which as I have also mentioned before was very enjoyable.) I just find the whole thing very sad. I just wish they could have died with diginity when GM tried to sell them off. A very attractive young lady spoke fluent English as she chaperoned many around the facility in an open top train with little rubber wheels. She showed how a flat sheet of steel was picked off its hanger then pressed by another machine into a shape. Several of these different shapes were married together making a bare shell in the shape of a new 9-5. Eventually, and moving along without boring you to death, a whole car was spat out at the end of a production line, of which several models were there to be test driven by those visiting. To say many visiting were impressed with the facility and the 9-5's spat out would be an understatement. But you weren't there. Were your mates? They seem lacking in info it seems.
As for the production line stopped. It was running 3 weeks ago (as mentioned somewhere in this topic) just after the first deal was struck with the Chinese, though stopped again. More of your silly scaremongering.
And you accuse me of not getting my facts right? The production line did not re-start on Monday 9th May as Antonov's cheque did not clear in time before the Chinese deal went belly up. Before this they changed some of the tooling to reflect the changes to the model year 2012. They did not produce any cars.
Dude, what is it with you? You sure do seem to have a very sharp axe to grind
Edited by Slade Alive on Thursday 19th May 21:23
As for production re-starting, that will only happen when agreement is reached with the suppliers and now they know the deal is dependant on production re-starting on Tuesday of next week, as I mentioned they will be playing hardball. If I hadn't been paid for weeks and Muller had lied to me about a 'glitch in the accounts computer' I would be wanting cash, up front, in my hand, right now. Otherwise he wouldn't get a seat cushion.
In related news at the Saab-Spyker AGM today it was announced that the production would being fired up again a week on Friday (27th). Which is three days later than the agreed date in the MoU. If it would have any bearing as well, I'm guessing it would also be or very close to payroll.
However in my totally unrelated experience, the last two companies that I have had dealings with that have then gone into administration, did so two days before payroll. Possibly because it means that the staff then join the list of creditors and as minions get pushed to the bottom of the pile, giving more pennies in the pound to the bigger boys.
I'm off now to hang ten.
OK I'm back from chillin' in the surf shack.
While you're about sladealive, do you want to have a chat with well informed contacts in China, as to why the Chinese government have said that the Pang Da deal can't go ahead? (This has been reported by both the Shanghai Daily and assorted Dutch & Swedish newspapers.) Maybe the fact that the commerical estate agents were at the factory yesterday valuing the buildings is related, as apparently Muller can no longer wait for the EIB to approve Antonov's lend/lease deal on the factory, so they are looking for another prospective landlord.
Remember Pang Da have already sent Saab a deposit. If the company now does go into adminstration, they will be the principal creditor and have first dibs. Oh wait... I do believe I said that up there ^^^^^^
As for your comment to gawdlpus (who has made some very telling points on this thread.) about the discount level he's having to give customers, it again proves you know very little about the current market for Saab in the UK. The big question now becomes, has Muller got enough funds to pay off the suppliers and has he got enough money to make payroll at the end of this month.
Got your custard ready?
Slade Alive said:
...which is you saying Muller is lying. The truth of Muller's comment perhaps refers to when the line was last run. The first week of May. Some three weeks ago then, which is as Muller told, when the line was switched off. According to Stig Runesson some cars were produced at that time.
So basically you are using a Saab financed website to confirm what I have already said. No production cars have come down the line since the begining of April. Cheers for that!Swade said:
Saab test production as Hawtai tour Saab factory
I’m playing catchup here, having just arrived back in Australia.
While I was in transit, representatives from Hawtai Motor Group arrived in Trollhattan and toured Saab’s factory. At the same time that was happening, Saab were recommencing limited production aimed at making sure that everything was working OK on the production line. Full production should recommence in the next week, though an exact date hasn’t been tied down as far as I know.
It didn't
Yesterday the production staff were on site to get information and to conduct a test run of factory equipment and build a small number of cars. Production manager, Stig Runesson, says that the activities were successful from several perspectives.
“I think most people appreciated getting to work, to get information and to touch materials and cars again. We chose to run a part of the test batch of cars during the Hawtai visit to give our guests a chance to see how things work here and it went very well.”
Again a test batch of cars, not production. There is no way they could have been complete cars as they haven't got a full inventory of parts to finish them. (remember the whole problem here started because they could not pay parts suppliers) Also one of the reasons HowNow rejected the deal was that they were 'aghast' at what they found at the factory, so those cars obviously impressed.
The purpose of the limited production run was primarily to test the equipment. Some maintanence work has been done as well as re-balance work, installations and completions, before the production start of the Saab 9-5 SportCombi and model year 2012. A test run like this is very valuable before the coming production start.
“In the tooling workshop we are now running try-outs and adjustments of certain tools. In the Body Shop we focus on getting the right dimensions and measures of the SportCombi and in the other shops we are have maintenance ongoing, and also improvement activitites with focus on quality. These tasks are handled with a limited number of employees on site,” says Stig Runesson.
Oh these silly cat 'n' mouse games. Here to show the inaccuracies of your finger pointing opinions which continue to litter this topic. Why do I care I’m playing catchup here, having just arrived back in Australia.
While I was in transit, representatives from Hawtai Motor Group arrived in Trollhattan and toured Saab’s factory. At the same time that was happening, Saab were recommencing limited production aimed at making sure that everything was working OK on the production line. Full production should recommence in the next week, though an exact date hasn’t been tied down as far as I know.
It didn't
Yesterday the production staff were on site to get information and to conduct a test run of factory equipment and build a small number of cars. Production manager, Stig Runesson, says that the activities were successful from several perspectives.
“I think most people appreciated getting to work, to get information and to touch materials and cars again. We chose to run a part of the test batch of cars during the Hawtai visit to give our guests a chance to see how things work here and it went very well.”
Again a test batch of cars, not production. There is no way they could have been complete cars as they haven't got a full inventory of parts to finish them. (remember the whole problem here started because they could not pay parts suppliers) Also one of the reasons HowNow rejected the deal was that they were 'aghast' at what they found at the factory, so those cars obviously impressed.
The purpose of the limited production run was primarily to test the equipment. Some maintanence work has been done as well as re-balance work, installations and completions, before the production start of the Saab 9-5 SportCombi and model year 2012. A test run like this is very valuable before the coming production start.
“In the tooling workshop we are now running try-outs and adjustments of certain tools. In the Body Shop we focus on getting the right dimensions and measures of the SportCombi and in the other shops we are have maintenance ongoing, and also improvement activitites with focus on quality. These tasks are handled with a limited number of employees on site,” says Stig Runesson.
While you're about sladealive, do you want to have a chat with well informed contacts in China, as to why the Chinese government have said that the Pang Da deal can't go ahead? (This has been reported by both the Shanghai Daily and assorted Dutch & Swedish newspapers.) Maybe the fact that the commerical estate agents were at the factory yesterday valuing the buildings is related, as apparently Muller can no longer wait for the EIB to approve Antonov's lend/lease deal on the factory, so they are looking for another prospective landlord.
Remember Pang Da have already sent Saab a deposit. If the company now does go into adminstration, they will be the principal creditor and have first dibs. Oh wait... I do believe I said that up there ^^^^^^
As for your comment to gawdlpus (who has made some very telling points on this thread.) about the discount level he's having to give customers, it again proves you know very little about the current market for Saab in the UK. The big question now becomes, has Muller got enough funds to pay off the suppliers and has he got enough money to make payroll at the end of this month.
Got your custard ready?
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Saturday 21st May 11:13
Another update.
The reason for the delay/possible cancellation of the Pang Da deal is that the Youngman Motor Company (crazy name, crazy guys.) have put forward documents that they say prove they had a signed agreement with Muller for a deal before HowNow and Pang Da.
The Chinese Finance ministry has basically frozen all any prospective contracts until it works out who has signed with who. In the meantime, no start of production, no deals with any of the suppliers, no deal with EIB let to let in Antonov, still it drags on.
The reason for the delay/possible cancellation of the Pang Da deal is that the Youngman Motor Company (crazy name, crazy guys.) have put forward documents that they say prove they had a signed agreement with Muller for a deal before HowNow and Pang Da.
The Chinese Finance ministry has basically frozen all any prospective contracts until it works out who has signed with who. In the meantime, no start of production, no deals with any of the suppliers, no deal with EIB let to let in Antonov, still it drags on.
Slade Alive said:
I've wondered if Toad is Swedish media funnily enough 
Thank you for the compliment. I've always thought that you are Swade.Important week yet again. Payday is looming for both Saab and its suppliers. Has either of them got the money? Will the government decide to loan them another 40 million to keep the doors open for another month? (despite last time saying it was the last time.). But more importantly, will a major supplier now decide that after 3 months of not being paid and with the production line still showing no sign of re-starting, its time to call in the heavy mob?
Stay tuned to this channel as the soap opera continues.
Hey Garlick, someone on here thinks I'm a journalist! Gizza a job!
Slade Alive said:
It's not like we know how much Saab require or Muller has / can get. Why bother guessing they'll fail based on what money you've no idea will work for them?
And yet again you prove your complete blind ignorance of the situation. If Muller is only in it for the love of the company and he had serious money to invest in the company do you think he might have done it by now? Even if I do put on some rose tinted specs for a while and say that Antonov has a few hundred million tucked away, do you think that if Muller knew some one else who could save the company, he wouldn't have got them to pump their money in by now? Maybe he's lost Mr Gates and Mr Bransons private numbers but as soon as he finds them again, they will come riding over the horzion on their coal black steeds to save the day.Anyone on this site who has ever picked up a car magazine will know exactly how much money Saab need to develop new models and I'm not going to bother telling you again because you are either hard of reading or more likely you are just sticking your fingers in your ears yelling "La, la, la I can't hear you Toad, la, la, la," to any post that myself or anyone else on here puts up when it disagrees with your blinkered view.
You have asked me to be factual. I have done that, I have quoted Bloomberg, Dow Jones, Ttela, Chinese Car Times, Shanghai Daily and even saabuntied.com. All you have said to back your point of view is that you have a source in China who says that everything is going to be ok but you can't say anything else as you might get Haymarket in trouble. Well Gordon Murray & John Barnard both used to come in to a shop where I worked but that doesn't make me an expert on F1 design.
I can't even be bothered now to say again the reasons why I care about this or to justify myself and my negative outlook again to you or anyone else on this thread. Quite frankly I can't see the point of justifying myself to someone who just regurgitates the latest Saab/Muller propaganda.
But I will just ask you this;
If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
2.) Muller has been caught being 'economical with the truth' again & again.
i.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
Granted if he does turn this around and this time next year I have custard feet, then he deserves the Nobel Prize for Business Skills because will be the best businessman on the entire planet. However I have a sneaking suspicion that my feet will remain custard-free and Mr Muller will still be a millionaire in 12 months time. My friends however (and probably gawdlpus too) could well all be out of a job.
End of the week will be payroll and also when the outstanding overdue from three months ago. invoices arrive from the suppliers who still have not been paid. Let's see how things unfold...
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Monday 23 May 20:52
Negative Creep said:
I'll get my cv in.Slade Alive said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
And yet again you prove your complete blind ignorance of the situation. If Muller is only in it for the love of the company and he had serious money to invest in the company do you think he might have done it by now?
Who said anything about love of the company? He's in business for f
k sake. Not a love fest for car enthusiasts. I believe he's out there now trying to get that serious money you speak of. I'm sure if he'd have made the investment it would have happened by now, yes. Or did you mean his own money? In which case don't be so dumb.Muller has said on numerous occasions that he loves the company and that he is an enthusiast for the product & and in it for the long term, so why I am I being dumb to suggest this? If he is such a fan, surely he would sell Spyker and pour the money into Saab? If he has long term faith in the product and is sure that in the future it will be profitable, why not sell off a sports car company that has never made a bean and has sold an average of 35 cars a year? Surely long term he'll will make much more money out of Saab than he would ever make selling Spykers. Unless of course, he plans to return to Spyker or possibly that as such a shining example of his business acumen nobody wants to buy it?
Toad said:
Even if I do put on some rose tinted specs for a while and say that Antonov has a few hundred million tucked away, do you think that if Muller knew some one else who could save the company, he wouldn't have got them to pump their money in by now? Maybe he's lost Mr Gates and Mr Bransons private numbers but as soon as he finds them again, they will come riding over the horzion on their coal black steeds to save the day.
I don't believe Branson has the facilities on his Island nor Gates on his. Last time I was in Manhattan space was at a premium with no room to build a car plant. But maybe Branson and Gates are not into these types of investment. History proves such. The Chinese though, now there is the largest growing car market in the world right there. Maybe that's why Muller went there. A clue don't ya think Toad?[b]
Are you seriously suggesting that if Gates & Branson were to invest into Saab they would want to move all the production facilities to their own private islands? Who do you think they are, Blofeld? And you talk about dumb?
I would agree that the Chinese market is enormous at the moment but what makes you think that they will like Saab anymore than the Europeans? Especially as Audi, BMW & Mercedes have had manufacturing, distribution, advertising, and dealer networks in place for some considerable time.
[/b]
Toad said:
Anyone on this site who has ever picked up a car magazine will know exactly how much money Saab need to develop new models and I'm not going to bother telling you again because you are either hard of reading or more likely you are just sticking your fingers in your ears yelling "La, la, la I can't hear you Toad, la, la, la," to any post that myself or anyone else on here puts up when it disagrees with your blinkered view.
Utter rubbish. Car magazines my arse. You need to look a lot higher than the newsagent shelf. Ultima Media not for sale to the general public.Right. So just so I'm totally crystal clear on this. You believe that you know better than every single motoring journalist on the planet? That all their experience in the industry over the past 20 years, the fact that they know CEOs of all the major companies, probably had dinners with them, maybe even know their kids names, these people are all wrong and you are right just because you've looked at a few industry magazines? Industry magazines are full of puff pieces, paid for by the people they feature. Most of them would never dream of publishing any negative articles as that way the pieces and therefore the advertising and therefore the money would dry up. If you had any knowledge of the motor trade, you would know that there is nothing CEOs of these companies like doing more than telling everyone how wonderful they are.
Toad said:
You have asked me to be factual. I have done that, I have quoted Bloomberg, Dow Jones, Ttela, Chinese Car Times, Shanghai Daily and even saabuntied.com.
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.This comment is so deliciously insane, I'll deal with it at the bottom.
Toad said:
All you have said to back your point of view is that you have a source in China who says that everything is going to be ok but you can't say anything else as you might get Haymarket in trouble. Well Gordon Murray & John Barnard both used to come in to a shop where I worked but that doesn't make me an expert on F1 design.
I actually said he was 'confident' was all and suggested he might be more aware of automotive production matters in China and Chinese government hurdles, than me listening to you. There was no mention of any conflict of interest with Haymarket. That would have been another source had you read correctly. I don't think there's any need for the facetious comment about Murray and Barnard and your lack of expertise in F1 design. But thank you. Duly noted.
[b]
Ok then, name names. If there is no conflict of interest, name names. Who is this wonderful person in China who knows all? I've told you where I get my information, you tell us where you're getting yours. Name names.
The F1 comment was because this is a motoring forum and I thought it would be obvious who these people are. I could have also said Bobby Davro & Shane Ritchie (because they came into the shop too.) & that they wouldn't have made me a comedian but judging by some of your comments...
[/b]
Toad said:
I can't even be bothered now to say again the reasons why I care about this or to justify myself and my negative outlook again to you or anyone else on this thread. Quite frankly I can't see the point of justifying myself to someone who just regurgitates the latest Saab/Muller propaganda.
Who would that be? I've not read anyone here regurgitating any such persons propaganda. You recite Mullers party line. You won't take the view that anyone else can possibly have another outlook on current events. So what does that make you other than a mouthpiece for Muller?
Toad said:
But I will just ask you this;
If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
Then it would appear you've answered your own question, except for me to say, maybe he's smarter than you give him credit for. If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
If he was that smart, I wouldn't be able to make predictions about what he is about to do. And as I said before, if the oppotunity to make money out of Saab is as big as he preaches then what does he need Spyker for? He could even just let Saab re-badge the car and sell it through selected showrooms.
Toad said:
2.) Muller has been caught being 'economical with the truth' again & again.
i.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
I'd rather have a poker player trying for a rescue attempt than some moralistic do gooder bent on playing by the rules in the cut throat world of big business where every other fi.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
ker's a poker player too.There is a difference between playing poker and deliberatly misleading the very people you need on board, the suppliers and lets face it, the general public who might actually buy the cars. If you remember, there is even some debate as to if he has broken Chinese business law as well. The Youngman corporation certainly seem to think he has.
toad said:
Granted if he does turn this around and this time next year I have custard feet, then he deserves the Nobel Prize for Business Skills because will be the best businessman on the entire planet. However I have a sneaking suspicion that my feet will remain custard-free and Mr Muller will still be a millionaire in 12 months time. My friends however (and probably gawdlpus too) could well all be out of a job.
So you would have Muller skint for trying and failing then? For failing to save Saab Muller can only be worthy in your eyes if he invests all his personal wealth and looses it? I'm sure that would put more than you and gawd out of a job.As I said before, Muller will still be a millionaire at the end of this, he won't be struggling to pay his mortgage. I have another friend who worked for a printing company that went into administration late last year & he was made redundant. He has only just found work, at a wage 15% less than he was before with double the travelling costs. If it wasn't for his parents he would be out on the street. And the boss? Set up and trading again under an almost indentical trading name. No baked beans on toast for dinner for him and it will be the same for Muller. And if you bothered to actually read my posts then you would recall I don't work for Saab and haven't done for 8 years.
sladealive said:
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.
So all these journalists, all over the world, are getting all their information about this, from one source? One evil source, polluting the minds of the public against Saab and brave Mr Muller. It has nothing to do with the product or lack of funding, its one evil source polluting the minds of every motoring journalist on the planet. Who could it be?The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
"I told you I wanted frickin' lasers on my Spyker, Mr Muller. And yet I have no frickin' lasers. You will now learn the punishment for failure. I will ruin you and your pretty little car company too!"
With paranoid comments like that I've changed my mind; you're not Swade, you're hedders.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Tuesday 24th May 22:08
Slade Alive said:
Toad said:
Muller has said on numerous occasions that he loves the company and that he is an enthusiast for the product & and in it for the long term, so why I am I being dumb to suggest this? If he is such a fan, surely he would sell Spyker and pour the money into Saab? If he has long term faith in the product and is su..............................................BORING......
I'm pretty sure whatever BUSINESS Muller is up to he's not going to put his neck in the noose no matter how much he loves a company, any company, this company, and certainly not to appease any dumb suggestion not doing so is immoral. 1.) Won't answer to the logic of my question, just considers it boring. I was inferring that he could make more money from running with only Saab rather than mucking about with Spyker, if he has faith in the product.
Toad said:
Are you seriously suggesting that if Gates & Branson were to invest into Saab they would want to move all the production facilities to their own private islands? Who do you think they are, Blofeld? And you talk about dumb?
No I was being facetious obviously.2.) Ah humour. Sorry missed that. I tend to make my jokes stand out rather than bury them in the middle of considered reply about an important topic.
Toad said:
I would agree that the Chinese market is enormous at the moment
You drew such conclusion all on your own then?3.) Yes
Toad said:
but what makes you think that they will like Saab anymore than the Europeans? Especially as Audi, BMW & Mercedes have had manufacturing, distribution, advertising, and dealer networks in place for some considerable time.
You'd have to take that up with Muller and the Chinese. I'm not the one looking for the answers remember. I'm simply pointing out it is you that seems to have issues following where Muller is going. It is you that is criticising his every move and coming up with negatives as to why YOU think it won't work.
4.) Nope. not just me. Nearly everyone on here and in the motoring press thinks that it won't work.
Toad said:
Right. So just so I'm totally crystal clear on this. You believe that you know better than every single motoring journalist on the planet?
You can be as clear as you like though I never gave such an impression. 5.) Yes you did. You inferred that one website and the information that it gave you supplied more accurate information than the rest of the motoring press put together.
Toad said:
That all their experience in the industry over the past 20 years, the fact that they know CEOs of all the major companies, probably had dinners with them, maybe even know their kids names, these people are all wrong and you are right just because you've looked at a few industry magazines? Industry magazines are full of puff pieces, paid for by the people they feature. Most of them would never dream of publishing any negative articles as that way the pieces and therefore the advertising and therefore the money would dry up. If you had any knowledge of the motor trade, you would know that there is nothing CEOs of these companies like doing more than telling everyone how wonderful they are.
Unfortunate you take such a cynical view. I did try to point out there are more intellectual sources, my opinion, of information available was all. Unfortunately you seem to have a rather corrupt view of how such sources gather their information. Few journalists from your fancied high street brands ever get to sit down with industry exec's. And I'm pretty sure the publications I pointed you toward don't actually sell copy to most if any CEO's and industry exec's but rather give them free subscription. What is printed is certainly not CEO's telling how wonderful they or the companies they represent are. That Toad is a rather clouded and pretty immature view if that's what you really believe.6.) Better to be immatue than to be totally naive as to how the world of business, manufacturering and commerce actual work. But unless those magazines are a registered charity then they have to sell copies to someone.
Toad said:
Ok then, name names. If there is no conflict of interest, name names. Who is this wonderful person in China who knows all? I've told you where I get my information, you tell us where you're getting yours. Name names.
Gathering second hand information off the web then putting your spin on it here, your spin being the main bone of contention I have with your commentary all through this topic. My information is private to me thank you. My source is confident is all I have said. You can spin that up any way you wish. If it pleases, you can exaggerate by suggesting my source is wonderful and knows all. I didn't say such though. You did.[b]7.) Again you claimed back in the thread that you knew someone who said that what was happening was all standard Chinese business practice and that everything with the deal was fine. As you aren't prepared to
name names or even give a vague clue as to who they might be your source is irrelevent. It could be your mothers brothers sisters boyfriend for all we know, where as I'm quoting respected business websites and even a Saab fan site. I would suspect that it is mearly an article from one of those specialist trade magazines you are so keen on.[/b]
Toad said:
You recite Mullers party line.
Where? I don't know the guy. He could be the biggest jerk walking for all I care.
8.) At least you are now admiting that he might not the worlds best business brain. Good. You're making progress.
Toad said:
You won't take the view that anyone else can possibly have another outlook on current events. So what does that make you other than a mouthpiece for Muller?
Someone who doesn't rehash web news with personal spin?9.) So if, as you claim you have no link to Saab or Muller and therefore no extra information aren't you doing exactly the same thing? Your opinion, my opinion, we both don't have all the facts. Its just that my information would appear to come from more reliable sources than my uncles nephews aunt once went to Shanghai or a magazine group that exists to print ego stroking stories for motor trade CEOs.
Toad said:
If he was that smart, I wouldn't be able to make predictions about what he is about to do.
You really are full of self belief aren't you. Unbelievable. 10.) On this topic? Yep.
Toad said:
There is a difference between playing poker and deliberatly misleading the very people you need on board, the suppliers and lets face it, the general public who might actually buy the cars. If you remember, there is even some debate as to if he has broken Chinese business law as well. The Youngman corporation certainly seem to think he has.
You really have no idea what Muller has said, told, explained, organised with anybody. Have you a direct quote from these Saab supplying companies? Can you show Muller mislead the public, or was it just the spin you're spinning after reading it on the web? Where is this debate regarding broken Chinese business law? Or is that something you also read on the web?11.) All news websites that I have quoted from are just electronic versions of newpapers or magazines. As has been proved by the superjunction issue in the UK at the moment, they can't just print rubbish. They are printing checked and verified stories which previously you would have picked up at the newsagents. You seem to believe that everything on the web is just gossip but only when it applies to information that disagrees with your view. Again, all the information is either out there on the web or even linked back in this thread with named sources.
toad said:
As I said before, Muller will still be a millionaire at the end of this, he won't be struggling to pay his mortgage.
So what?12.) The reason why I'm annoyed about this, is that Muller is just playing. He hasn't got enough money to run Saab properly but thought by borrowing European taxpayers money he could become a major player. Saab have always needed a major player to take them over, not just to become a play thing of people who won't be affected when it all goes wrong.
Toad said:
I have another friend who worked for a printing company that went into administration late last year & he was made redundant. He has only just found work, at a wage 15% less than he was before with double the travelling costs. If it wasn't for his parents he would be out on the street. And the boss? Set up and trading again under an almost indentical trading name. No baked beans on toast for dinner for him and it will be the same for Muller.
Has your friends ex boss committed a crime? Interesting you lump Muller in with your friends ex boss as if what they're doing is corrupt. Maybe your friends ex boss figured a legal way to take care of their own needs first, as they did when setting up in business, at some stage giving your friend a job during better times presumably paying your friend a wage so he wasn't at that time out on the street. It's called life.
13.) No of course he hasn't and my friend has accepted his fate. But my friends ex-boss didn't borrow huge amounts of money from the European taxpayer to play at trying to run a car company which employs many thousands of people worldwide and if it goes belly up will rid Europe of another major manufacturering companies.
Toad said:
And if you bothered to actually read my posts then you would recall I don't work for Saab and haven't done for 8 years.
Thank fk. I mean, sorry yes I overlooked that in my haste to reply to your dumb q&a's.14.) And as we can see from the quality of some your replies perhaps thats something you want to think about in the future.
Toad said:
Finally, lets come back to this.
sladealive said:
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.
I'm sure you do but the reality is they're all quoting from one source by and large. One source picked up by a news agency, to another news agency, and another, and another, and another, which is why Chinese whispers might be more appropriate in the case of Muller and Saab. But hey what do I know.Toad said:
So all these journalists, all over the world, are getting all their information about this, from one source? One evil source, polluting the minds of the public against Saab and brave Mr Muller. It has nothing to do with the product or lack of funding, its one evil source polluting the minds of every motoring journalist on the planet. Who could it be?
The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
15.) Well not enough to see a joke but enough to do some selected editing.
Now if you don't mind Toad I've wasted far too much time being considerate to your contributions despite me finding them pretty immature and not really worthy of a response. So if you will, I've made it pretty clear. Crystal clear. As to where I am. Please, no more. Whilst it was fun to a point, I'm bored now.
Edited by Slade Alive on Wednesday 25th May 01:33
At the moment it all boils down to a simple statement.
Saab aren't selling enough cars & haven't been for the last 20 years. The general public prefer other makes of car as the worldwide sales figures prove and no longer feel Saab are revelent to the market place. Saab have no money left in the bank to either advertise their existence or launch any new models that might sell. A retail business basically works by people buying your product, you take a profit to develop new product and pay yourself a wage, you introduce new product, it sells etc. Saab is not performing to that model at the moment or even getting anywhere near. They need investment running into billions to help get them out of this mess. Muller has been trying to find this investment since he took over the company. This he hasn't been able to do and his actions in running round offering it anyone who has any money except wonga.com, has not helped the companies already damaged image.
If you seriously believe that this isn't the case then you are drifting into the realms of pure delusion.
However, again as I mentioned before if I am wrong in a years time & Saab are still here, I will apolgise, I'm still waiting to hear if you will do the same thing if Saab does fail. But I'm guessing if that does happen, you will think its just the internets fault and nothing to do with Mullers desperate and embarassing efforts or a product that has been neglected, badly managed & appallingly marketed for the last 20 years.
Bye Swade I'd like to say its been fun. I'd like to say that.... but I can't.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 25th May 10:13
Slade Alive said:
gawdlpus said:
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
Spouting a lot of crap here isn't going to help is it. Which is why I've not!Hello again son, dude, mate, friend (Sorry what are we calling each other today?)
That period in exile lasted a long time!!
What you did say is that you wouldn't be bothered answering anymore of my replies. Obviously you are so worried about the strength of your arguements you feel the need to come back on here to defend your position, which by yet again by not making any attempt to back up your opinions or posting any facts again about the issue you've singulary failed to do.
As you just seem to ignore the evidence I will just draw you up on one point. gawdlpus is a SAAB SALESMAN (or was.), he was selling the cars, he says its a disaster area out there. For the 100th time its not just me who has these opinions and I really can't be bothered to explain to you yet again the situation regarding SALES & REGISTRATIONS. Its all back in the thread. As gawdlpus has just said the niche market for Saab is shrinking rapidly because people are really having to reign in the pennies and unless they can get rock solid residuals (Audi, Merc, BMW.) are down sizing to something fuel efficent, reliable, with a good warrenty and reputation that will last so that you know you have no hidden costs coming over the next 5 years. (which is the amount of time that some manufacturers are giving as part of their warrenty package.)
Again with reference to "son", "grown up" and "business for as long as I have" comments, what sort of person are you? One minute you make out like you're a surfer dude, the next minute you are patronising old guffer who has seen it all and done it all. I have made a very nice living out of the motor trade, thanks. Hopefully, in the near future, you won't be shown some harsh realities of just how hard it will be trading in a brand that no longer exists and that no one except for 1500 people on a website, care about.
Slade Alive said:
Toad I said yesterday "I've wasted far too much time being considerate to your contributions despite finding them pretty immature and not really worthy of a response".
Don't try pulling the reverse psychology babble. I replied again out of courtesy was all. I still think you're a fking idiot when it comes to recent Saab matters. You go get 'em son.
Oh No. Someone on the internet doesn't like me. I must write to my mother & tell her what a terrible job she did bringing me up.Don't try pulling the reverse psychology babble. I replied again out of courtesy was all. I still think you're a f
king idiot when it comes to recent Saab matters. You go get 'em son. Pistachio said:
Many Thanks I think we will all need it
http://www.thelocal.se/33990/20110525/#
basically Swedish Government sitting on the fence at the moment despite well meaning billionaires offering shed loads of cash……crazy blaming it on GM and EIB delay
Its a shame you want to close the thread Pistachio because having got the juvenile playground name calling out of the way, I've had time to read that article that you've posted & I think its very interesting.http://www.thelocal.se/33990/20110525/#
basically Swedish Government sitting on the fence at the moment despite well meaning billionaires offering shed loads of cash……crazy blaming it on GM and EIB delay
It is a shame some of the translation is so vague but it would appear to show an issue that we haven't really discussed on this thread, which is do the Swedish government want Saab to fail? From that piece I'd say that the Swedish government has learned some lessons from Gordon Brown and is just waiting to see what everyone else does before jumping on the bandwagon.
If they get approval for Antonov from elsewhere;
"We now agree to let him in, always wanted to, good for Saab. Vote for us for saving all those jobs,"
If they don't agree,
"Never liked him anyway and what did we want to save Saab for? Here's a massive dole cheque. Vote for us"
And another question raised is why are GM taking so long in appoving Antonov? Could it be with the massive discounts you can now get on mid to lower range 9-5s it puts them right in the price band of top of the range Insignias? So in a way, it could be like asking Audi to approve a rescue deal?
Slade Alive said:
Right Saab. I was told by a 'friend' (let's not go there, lol) GM have been the problem all along. Still are, with $326m worth of preferred shares.
What, in the case of this deal, do GM's preferred shares mean? I have tried to read through the gobble-gook on the net and it would seem to infer that they could have been given power of veto over any takeover deal which involved any of their IP.If that is the case then Saab's future would appear to be out of Muller's hands, let alone Antonov or Pang Da.
confused_buyer said:
Amazing...I go away for 10 days and the same arguments are still going back and forth between the same people...!
Amyway, it appears Saab actually made a few cars today. Not many, and it remains to be seen whether they can keep it going but some postive concrete news for once. I still don't think the fundamental structure of Saab as a small independent has much future but rather than being totally dead it is still twitching.
As for the 9-4X it is, of course, hopeless for Europe but it under all the financial disaster news it has actually got some very postive reviews so who knows, maybe it will sell where it was designed to.
Yep, just seen this myself. Saab management admit that there still will be problems with parts and possible further interuptions but they have made payday and are up & running with what are claimed to be full production cars. They are also saying that the Youngmans group deal expired in March, so there should be no worries there. However, there still seems to be no definite news about full approval for the PangDa deal and no news about the Antonov investment getting clearance. I'm now beginning to think that in the short term, the whole thing hinges on what GM & EIB have to say.Amyway, it appears Saab actually made a few cars today. Not many, and it remains to be seen whether they can keep it going but some postive concrete news for once. I still don't think the fundamental structure of Saab as a small independent has much future but rather than being totally dead it is still twitching.
As for the 9-4X it is, of course, hopeless for Europe but it under all the financial disaster news it has actually got some very postive reviews so who knows, maybe it will sell where it was designed to.
But cautiously some good news....
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