0-60, where will it end?

[nickfrog]

McSam said:

Eski1991 said:

I guess as lighter materials become more usable and BHP per tonne increases then so will 0-60

It just won't, it's traction-limited..

Yes and the lighter, the less traction.

[AdeTuono]

nyxster said:

I would have thought the F1 cars with their colossal rear wheels and slick tyres, light weight and huge power would be a reference for what the limits of physics are.

Never been drag racing then?

[robinessex]

I reckon a max acceleration of 1g is the practical level for a 'normal' road car on standard tyres. That's about 0-60 in 2.73 seconds. However, and I'm sure a few here will confirm, the 0-60 run isn't something a sympathetic car owner does too often. Exploding transmissions/fried clutches, shredded tyres aren't unknown. I suggested to some of the car mags a while ago a 5-65 acceleration run. The car would have to be rolling at a steady 5mph, clutch fully engage, appropriate lower gear, and then the throttle buried to the carpet. Something any car owner would be happy to do, and doesn't rely on the skill of the driver as a 0-60 run does. And it would be a more realistic test of the cars grunt in everyday situations.

[Scuffers]

don't agree with the idea that ~2.5 sec's in the limit...

yes, it's initially all about traction, however, tyres can generate more than 1G

[McSam]

Scuffers said:

don't agree with the idea that ~2.5 sec's in the limit...

yes, it's initially all about traction, however, tyres can generate more than 1G

They can, although as I said in the very first reply (which astoundingly few people seem to read, not just directed at you Scuffers!), 2.5 seconds is a 1.13g average, and that is very, very close to the maximum you can expect from road tyres. Also said that of course tyres are improving, but very slowly compared to the rate of power increase, so at the ultimate performance end, they're the limit.

Since the OP was talking about original-spec road cars, slicks are out, and realistically so are things like AD08s or Federal semi-slicks and the like. Proper road tyres, we're already at the ceiling in all but front-wheel-drive (where I presume nobody can be bothered to make a car that's traction-limited all the way to 60mph because it would be such a massive dog in other capacities).

[Scuffers]

even with road tyres, I am not sure that 1.1G is actually the limit?

Not sure how to work it out, but what's 0-64 feet in 1.81 seconds work out at?

[McSam]

By my sums, that's 1.186g average, and you're doing 47.11mph by the end of it.

Edited to correct awesome daft error, then show working:

s = u.t + 1/2.a.t^2

so a = 2.s/t^2

s = 64ft = 768in = 1950.72cm = 19.5072m, and t=1.81

a = 2*19.5072 / 1.81^2

a = 11.634m/s^2, g=9.81m/s^2 so acceleration is 1.186g

11.634m/s^2 over 1.81s = 21.057m/s at end = 75.807kph = 47.11mph

Edited by McSam on Tuesday 30th July 09:26

[Panda P]

0-60 in a production car is something relatively exclusive still but not when modifications are considered. Does anyone remember the Repsol liveried Escort Cosworth road car, modified but its owner? That was a 0-60 in 2.4secs as far as I remember but it met its end during a Gumball Rally..lost it on some gravel or something apprently.

Edited by Panda P on Tuesday 30th July 09:31

[Ari]

Shadows said:

They already have , AMG A45 ring a bell? Even that car is a prime example of what a fast car in the wrong hands can be potentially very dangerous, all it takes is for it to become in the hands of many. Give it 10 years 200 HP more and sparks will happen.

If we were to give everyone on the UK roads a Nissan GTR, do you think it would be a good idea or not?

A Nissan Micra in the wrong hands is potentially very dangerous.

I don't buy the theory that at some point in the future, cars faster and more powerful than we're currently used to will suddenly become a dangerous situation. People won't drive them flat out any more than they do in the current crop of 200-300hp hot hatches because it's not possible to do so without immediately crashing.

I'm sure when Golf GTI's were pushing out 112hp for a top speed of 115mph back in the eighties there were people saying "200hp 150mph hot hatches are coming, once they get in the hands of many it will suddenly become very dangerous". It hasn't has it?

[TheJimi]

Panda P said:

0-60 in a production car is something relatively exclusive still but not when modifications are considered. Does anyone remember the Repsol liveried Escort Cosworth road car, modified but its owner? That was a 0-60 in 2.4secs as far as I remember but it met its end during a Gumball Rally..lost it on some gravel or something apprently.

Edited by Panda P on Tuesday 30th July 09:31

The Reyland Escort Cosworth, aye and it was a fairly spectacular off!

IIRC, PH'er Porkie was the passenger at the time.

[Henry Fiddleton]

0-60 has already ended, its all about Ring times now

[CraigyMc]

DaveCWK said:

Serious question: Isn't sub 3 seconds 0-60 a fairly uncontrolable experience? Could you even do that without sitting down and preparing yourself beforehand to avoid neck pain?

For road cars? No, it's a piece of piss, and it's getting easier all the time because the cars are getting better.
(another way to put this is: if you're only driving for 3s, you only have 3s of time in which to make a mistake).

How hard is it to hold a wheel straight?

Pretty much the only thing that's taxing are drag cars which are either so well developed that they flex the chassis and/or have different torque at each wheel, or are so poorly developed that they have the same problems. It's quite interesting watching the 4wd drag classes try to cope with 4 wheel torque steer, for example.

Either way you're talking about cars that are in the 2s to 60 class, where you'll be wearing a nomex suit.

C

[wombat172a]

If the limiting factor is rubber, isn't the answer then more rubber?

4 wheel drive systems have improved launch speeds/times, so would a 6 wheel drive system improve it again? I know it would look silly and probably handle like crap, but maybe someone could make it work.

[Scuffers]

McSam said:

By my sums, that's 1.186g average, and you're doing 47.11mph by the end of it.

Edited to correct awesome daft error, then show working:

s = u.t + 1/2.a.t^2

so a = 2.s/t^2

s = 64ft = 768in = 1950.72cm = 19.5072m, and t=1.81*

a = 2*19.5072 / 1.81^2

a = 11.634m/s^2, g=9.81m/s^2 so acceleration is 1.186g

11.634m/s^2 over 1.81s = 21.057m/s at end = 75.807kph = 47.11mph

Edited by McSam on Tuesday 30th July 09:26

Ok, that's a S1 elise on Pzeros and 118bhp

No 4wd, stick tyres, etc.

[NAS]

DaveCWK said:

Serious question: Isn't sub 3 seconds 0-60 a fairly uncontrolable experience? Could you even do that without sitting down and preparing yourself beforehand to avoid neck pain?

Try doing it on a bike.

Loads will crack the 3 seconds barrier for years now, but it's damn difficult to achieve nonetheless.

[Ari]

wombat172a said:

If the limiting factor is rubber, isn't the answer then more rubber?

4 wheel drive systems have improved launch speeds/times, so would a 6 wheel drive system improve it again? I know it would look silly and probably handle like crap, but maybe someone could make it work.

[McSam]

wombat172a said:

If the limiting factor is rubber, isn't the answer then more rubber?

4 wheel drive systems have improved launch speeds/times, so would a 6 wheel drive system improve it again? I know it would look silly and probably handle like crap, but maybe someone could make it work.

Sadly not! We dealt with this one somewhere else the other week, but the simple answer is that rubber doesn't help, because rubber alone doesn't do anything. You need rubber with weight on it, and the product of the rubber's stickiness and the weight pressing it into the road is what gives you the maximum sustainable drive force. Because of this, adding more rubber just spreads the same weight over a wider area, so the net available "grip" is the same.

The reason 4WD helps is because, without it, you have two tyres that are taking some of the vertical load, but not using the grip that gives them to drive the car. Four-wheel-drive means you use all of the car's weight to press the driven tyres down, thus maximising the available traction. Adding more tyres would still only use the same 100% of vehicle weight to give grip. See what I mean?


Scuffers - that's bloody quick for an Elise, I'd project it on to 0-60mph in low threes..

[Kozy]

It will stop when practically every performance car can reach it's limit. Say 2.3 seconds for AWD, 3.5 seconds for RWD and 4.5 seconds for FWD.

Then people will realise it is meaningless as it has nothing to do with the car and (rightly) start using things like 1/4 mile speeds (not times), 30-70, 40-80 etc.

[RobinSherwood]

Ari said:

I'm about a third of the way through, still in the seventies tests, and reading about the supercars of the day, Lamborghini Countach, Ferrari BB512, Maserati Bora etc.

Some of these were the real big hitters of their day, V8 and V12 monsters. But what's interesting is reading the performance stats from a viewpoint forty years into the future. The Bora for instance, a lightweight mid engined supercar with a V8 4.7 litre engine and a manual gearbox recorded a 0-60 of 6.4 seconds. It cost an astonishing £12,000 too! The really extreme stuff of the day was just about cracking 5 seconds.

Thing is, my 3.0 litre Mercedes will best that Bora to 60 now (just), and that's with a slushmatic autobox. And hot hatches are now cracking 5.0 to 60!

You need to put the Bora into context, it wasn't designed to be an all out sports supercar it was designed to be a GT Supercar, fast, refined and comfortable for long distances. For example the window in the bulkhead between the passenger compartment and the engine bay is double glazed to aid refinement.

Also the 0-60 time is compromised by the gearbox which has a dog leg first and it not a gearbox that likes to be hurried, it requires a certain delibrate, firm technique if that makes sense.

The Bora therefore feels much faster than the figures suggest once under way and I suspect you would think it faster than your Mercedes if you were in the Bora it certainly never feels slow in modern traffic, quite the opposite in fact.

Then of course it has other qualities more ordinairy, modern cars can never match. The looks, though of course I am biased on this one and the EPIC noise a Bora (can) make......

[McSam]

There's only so long a fantastically rare and obscure sports car can be mentioned on PH before an actual owner arrives. Amazing! Looks like a gorgeous car to own and use properly, top man