A simple calculation for the average PH'er

[Willy Nilly]

Could you have the batteries on the cars put power into the grid at peak times, isn't this what smart meters do? Leave the charger plugged in, it takes power out of the battery at peak times smoothing out spikes and tops itself up over night off peak. I might be talking ball cocks.

[MX7]

Willy Nilly said:

Could you have the batteries on the cars put power into the grid at peak times, isn't this what smart meters do? Leave the charger plugged in, it takes power out of the battery at peak times smoothing out spikes and tops itself up over night off peak. I might be talking ball cocks.

I'm not sure about back into the grid, but it could power your house at times. Also, the chargers would possibly be smart enough to know when to charge by being able to pick up on variable lower rates available when the power is in surplus. Your car could become your power source for your home, and take advantage of lower rates that may vary hour to hour.

I have no idea why PH doesn't have a forum for this. It's the same cynical questions that are asked time and time again with the same tedious responses. With it's own forum, and a few Wikis to explain the situation, a proper debate might open up. Given how abstract some sub-forums are on PH, I feel that there's a hint of Luddism by refusing to acknowledge any future fuels.

[98elise]

Willy Nilly said:

Could you have the batteries on the cars put power into the grid at peak times, isn't this what smart meters do? Leave the charger plugged in, it takes power out of the battery at peak times smoothing out spikes and tops itself up over night off peak. I might be talking ball cocks.

This is not only feasable, it is very much the future.

One problem with power generation is that its not easy to store. This means you have to pretty much generate the power needed in real time. This means we need extra capacity for peak loads, and for a lot of the time we have powerstations idle.

The is no reason why your car battery couldn't supply your household peaks, then recover the charge overnight at cheaper rates when energy companies have excess capacity available.

[98elise]

MX7 said:

Willy Nilly said:

Could you have the batteries on the cars put power into the grid at peak times, isn't this what smart meters do? Leave the charger plugged in, it takes power out of the battery at peak times smoothing out spikes and tops itself up over night off peak. I might be talking ball cocks.

I'm not sure about back into the grid, but it could power your house at times. Also, the chargers would possibly be smart enough to know when to charge by being able to pick up on variable lower rates available when the power is in surplus. Your car could become your power source for your home, and take advantage of lower rates that may vary hour to hour.

I have no idea why PH doesn't have a forum for this. It's the same cynical questions that are asked time and time again with the same tedious responses. With it's own forum, and a few Wikis to explain the situation, a proper debate might open up. Given how abstract some sub-forums are on PH, I feel that there's a hint of Luddism by refusing to acknowledge any future fuels.

There is an EV and Alternative fuels forum.....

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...

HTH

[MX7]

98elise said:

There is an EV and Alternative fuels forum.....

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...

HTH

Thank you. I haven't been around much recently and I missed that. Several people have been suggesting it for a very long time, so I guess my Humble Pie from PH is now served.

Tonight's reading is sorted.

[Mr2Mike]

MX7 said:

So show me where people were asking what will happen when we all convert to diesel.

wker.

What the fk has diesel got to do with anything? I provided links that explain what a hypothetical question is but if you still don't understand maybe PH is just too intellectually advanced for you.

[kazste]

Assuming everyone had the same car and everyone charged it at the same time then the power station output wouldn't really matter as the cable would be in half on quite a few streets. Cables are only capable of carrying a certain degree of current and if everyone was using their maximum power at the same time then the system would certainly struggle. Principles such as diversity exist when designing these system which say for the football match and kettle scenario state that not everyone will be watching the football. But if we are talking about absolutely everyone charging a car there would be no diversity at all meaning cables may go over their ratings leading to the high possibility of fatigue failure or instant failure due to the drawn current being significantly over the design spec of the network.

Coming back to the power station side unless things have changed significantly in the last 5 years then the power stations would struggle to provide the load in the first place, when the consumption draw at the lowest night period was overlayed with a likely draw for a significant number of vehicles charging, not all, then the consumption rose above the UK's capability.

[Impasse]

As the OP suggested we replaced our own cars with an electric equivalent, why are all these fag packet calculations based on a frikkin' Nissan Leaf? Is PH solely inhabited by owners of dull underpowered shopping cars?

[98elise]

Impasse said:

As the OP suggested we replaced our own cars with an electric equivalent, why are all these fag packet calculations based on a frikkin' Nissan Leaf? Is PH solely inhabited by owners of dull underpowered shopping cars?

It doesn't matter what car you use. To move a car around 30 miles uses around 9kWh of electrical power. EV don't suffer heat or pumping losses like an ICE. When a powerful EV is doing say 60mph, it uses the same power as a low power EV (assuming the same rolling resistance and drag).

Of course if you accelerate harder in the more powerful EV then you will consume more energy, but 90% of people drive in similar manner.

[Impasse]

98elise said:

It doesn't matter what car you use. To move a car around 30 miles uses around 9kWh of electrical power. EV don't suffer heat or pumping losses like an ICE. When a powerful EV is doing say 60mph, it uses the same power as a low power EV (assuming the same rolling resistance and drag).

Of course if you accelerate harder in the more powerful EV then you will consume more energy, but 90% of people drive in similar manner.

I'd suggest it takes more energy to move a fully loaded Range Rover towing a 3500kg load thirty miles than it does to move an Elise with just the driver on board, be that stop start urban driving or pressing on down the dual carriageway. Your bracketed phrase of drag and rolling resistance is a massive differentiation to quietly ignore with the OP's initial question in mind.

And yes, I had assumed that most of PH enjoys a touch of spirited motoring every now and again. Maybe I was wrong and they all go for max mpg at any given opportunity. Would explain a lot, that can be frustrating process...

[Willy Nilly]

98elise said:

Willy Nilly said:

Could you have the batteries on the cars put power into the grid at peak times, isn't this what smart meters do? Leave the charger plugged in, it takes power out of the battery at peak times smooth out spikes and tops itself up over night off peak. I might be talking ball cocks.

This is not only feasable, it is very much the future.

One problem with power generation is that its not easy to store. This means you have to pretty much generate the power needed in real time. This means we need extra capacity for peak loads, and for a lot of the time we have powerstations idle.

The is no reason why your car battery couldn't supply your household peaks, then recover the charge overnight at cheaper rates when energy companies have excess capacity available.

I got something right on Piston Heads!

[VinceFox]

Twelve.

[croyde]

A lot of us don't have drives or garages so you'll be tripping over all the extension cables trailing across the pavement.

[Nige_GTI]

Aren't there a couple fk off great cables under the channel so we can import electricity from france during peak times? I think the grid is stretched enough.

The diversity on the mains supplies is huge in the uk.

[98elise]

Impasse said:

98elise said:

It doesn't matter what car you use. To move a car around 30 miles uses around 9kWh of electrical power. EV don't suffer heat or pumping losses like an ICE. When a powerful EV is doing say 60mph, it uses the same power as a low power EV (assuming the same rolling resistance and drag).

Of course if you accelerate harder in the more powerful EV then you will consume more energy, but 90% of people drive in similar manner.

I'd suggest it takes more energy to move a fully loaded Range Rover towing a 3500kg load thirty miles than it does to move an Elise with just the driver on board, be that stop start urban driving or pressing on down the dual carriageway. Your bracketed phrase of drag and rolling resistance is a massive differentiation to quietly ignore with the OP's initial question in mind.

And yes, I had assumed that most of PH enjoys a touch of spirited motoring every now and again. Maybe I was wrong and they all go for max mpg at any given opportunity. Would explain a lot, that can be frustrating process...

I was assuming you meant why do people do calculations based on a Leaf, when PH'ers would want something like a Tesla Model S (with Aston like performance). It the Leaf and the Tesla have the same losses through rolling resistance, and drag (which is entirely possible) then it will take the same energy to move them at say 60 mph. At any given speed, power is only consumed to overcome the losses. Its simple physics.

The reason ICE cars use more power at a given speed (say a Mondeo ST vs a Mondeo 1.6) is the losses from running a higher power engine. EV's don't really suffer from this issue as they have very little in the way if heat losses, and obviously don't have any pumping losses.

I'm not sure if all PH'ers drive RR's with 3500kg loads, but clearly that will have a high rolling resistance, and will take more power to accelerate.

Edited by 98elise on Saturday 1st February 10:18

Edited by 98elise on Saturday 1st February 10:52

Edited by 98elise on Saturday 1st February 12:48

[98elise]

Nige_GTI said:

Aren't there a couple fk off great cables under the channel so we can import electricity from france during peak times? I think the grid is stretched enough.

The diversity on the mains supplies is huge in the uk.

The diversity is why we have plenty of capacity. Smart chargers will simply charge your car when the grid wants you to take up the slack, then smooth peak loads by acting as an energy store.

This will only be practical though once Tesla like performance is available on Mondeo priced cars, and they become common.

[kambites]

Impasse said:

As the OP suggested we replaced our own cars with an electric equivalent, why are all these fag packet calculations based on a frikkin' Nissan Leaf? Is PH solely inhabited by owners of dull underpowered shopping cars?

Mine were based on the higher powered Tesla Model-S, which seats seven and does 0-60 in about four seconds despite weighing over two tonnes.

As pointed out above, electric cars have far less variation in energy consumption for a given journey than ICE powered ones. Drag still has a major impact; but weight less so because whilst you burn a lot more energy getting up to speed, you get a fair chunk of it back when you slow down again.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 1st February 11:14

[ArmaghMan]

I had the good fortune to attend a PIG (pipeline industries guild) seminar where one of the top brass at Transo gave a talk on what the future held.
It was an interesting lecture. One thing he was absolutely adamant about was that the UK was totally underprepared in the event that electric cars took of. I'll never forget him saying that the govt. would only start to pay attention when the lights started to go out!!

[98elise]

ArmaghMan said:

I had the good fortune to attend a PIG (pipeline industries guild) seminar where one of the top brass at Transo gave a talk on what the future held.
It was an interesting lecture. One thing he was absolutely adamant about was that the UK was totally underprepared in the event that electric cars took of. I'll never forget him saying that the govt. would only start to pay attention when the lights started to go out!!

Did he have any facts and figure to back that up, and if so has he published them anywhere. I think I already know the answer to the question

[mids]

Max_Torque said:

A typical electric car, has a ~35kWhr battery pack (leaf/i3 etc), so 336GWhr can charge 9.6M of these cars every day

It's actually even more because the i3's battery capacity is only half that (18.8kwh).

Max_Torque said:

The current uk passenger car fleet is around 40M, but of course, not all of those would need to be charged every day!

Yep, and also, most drivers would be arriving home with the battery only partially depleted. The typical commute consumes less than half the battery capacity.