RE: INEOS confirms Grenadier for reveal in 2020
Discussion
Ah, Blue people you gotta love 'em. I'm half blue, half red.
You can spot the Blues here. Very engineer. Unless there's a written thesis of 1 million words illustrating, down to the minute, the screw and grommit, how it will work and how it can't fail, it can't succeed.
The greens, they say it seems a bit far fetched, being so new and trying something that seems a bit, well, outlandish. Couldn't Ineos stick to what it knows best?
The yellows and the reds say, get on with it! It's there to conquer! Except the yellow is too busy talking and the red is shouting about why you haven't sold 25,000 units in 10 minutes.
We're all different, but one thing that is constant, is our power to break new ground and do things others thought were foolhardy or impossible.
Go for it Ineos.
You can spot the Blues here. Very engineer. Unless there's a written thesis of 1 million words illustrating, down to the minute, the screw and grommit, how it will work and how it can't fail, it can't succeed.
The greens, they say it seems a bit far fetched, being so new and trying something that seems a bit, well, outlandish. Couldn't Ineos stick to what it knows best?
The yellows and the reds say, get on with it! It's there to conquer! Except the yellow is too busy talking and the red is shouting about why you haven't sold 25,000 units in 10 minutes.
We're all different, but one thing that is constant, is our power to break new ground and do things others thought were foolhardy or impossible.
Go for it Ineos.
Well me and other people in my office are very excited with the prospect and I dare say we'll buy them. It is what a lot of people I know are after. We are all rural etc.. Now it Suzuki can do it and outsell ALL of the Jimny production I really don't see why not..
Infact just put the Jimny on the photocopier. I'd buy that over a Disco 5 any day.
Infact just put the Jimny on the photocopier. I'd buy that over a Disco 5 any day.
Max_Torque said:
ok, answer one question:
"How do you sell an inferior product for a higher price than your competition" ?
Longevity seems to be what they are aiming for as the solution. If a business can get ‘x’ number of additional years use out of a tool then it makes sense for them to pay ‘y’ more in initial outlay. "How do you sell an inferior product for a higher price than your competition" ?
There is also the definition of ‘inferior’ to contemplate. I imagine that in terms of initial comfort, generic practicality that it might be inferior to the mass produced alternatives but I assume they are aiming their product into a slightly non generic space where it would be superior to arguably better built and cheaper alternatives?
JxJ Jr. said:
Jag_NE said:
TWPC said:
Very glad to see that assembly will be taking place at Bridgend.
I'm surprised they are only using 6 cyl engines. I'd have thought the 'simple, cheaper than a Landie' ethos would have required at least the option of a 4 cyl diesel and petrol. Will they be coming at a later date?
I agree with your engine point. If the car is competing with cheap pick ups a 3.0d will add a lot more undesired cost vs a 2.0d. Even though bmw will be selling the engines in lower power ratings I can’t envisage how a 2.0d won’t still be sufficient for its intended market. I'm surprised they are only using 6 cyl engines. I'd have thought the 'simple, cheaper than a Landie' ethos would have required at least the option of a 4 cyl diesel and petrol. Will they be coming at a later date?
blueST said:
Fault finding - Could some sort of stripped down simplified diagnostic software not be run on the head unit?
Absolutely. This is from the article: will you be able to fix it by the side of the road with a hammer? "A 21st century hammer" smiles INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann, including empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own. Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
blueST said:
Body on frame build quality - there are many companies who manage to build vehicles with acceptable quality and panel fit on that type of vehicle. Granted, I don’t know how many you need to do that. But it should be noted that the 200 people in Wales will be supplemented by another facility in Portugal.
The causes for buzz, squak and rattle are determined during the development phase. A good design would not need special skills during assembly. Think of the original Mini: it was a loud, rattling box. The new model is assembled by the same people in the same plant, and it doesn't have anywhere near the unintended noises the old design had.I think that Ineos has taken the right decision to contract 200 experienced automotive engineers with MBtech in Stuttgart to develop the car.
blueST said:
Could BMW not be providing both the engines and the tune, just optimised for Ineos? Would BMW not already have software tunes suitable for low quality fuel for their sales in the developing world?
I don't know of any European high-volume engine that would not accept fuel of standards used in South America, Eurasia or Africa. When the article says INEOS will apply its own layer of tuning to end up with a reliable, torquey unit best suited to its workhorse duties, then this doesn't mean that the engine will be fundamentally changed, or any higher cost will occur in the new application; except -maybe- for eg. BMW's engineering to adapt parameters.BMW has demonstrated capability to sell their engines to large- and small-scale car manufacturers. Just as an example, Morgan successfully uses BMW engines for many years, and integrated them with a small budget.
janesmith1950 said:
Ah, Blue people you gotta love 'em. I'm half blue, half red.
You can spot the Blues here. Very engineer. Unless there's a written thesis of 1 million words illustrating, down to the minute, the screw and grommit, how it will work and how it can't fail, it can't succeed.
The greens, they say it seems a bit far fetched, being so new and trying something that seems a bit, well, outlandish. Couldn't Ineos stick to what it knows best?
The yellows and the reds say, get on with it! It's there to conquer! Except the yellow is too busy talking and the red is shouting about why you haven't sold 25,000 units in 10 minutes.
We're all different, but one thing that is constant, is our power to break new ground and do things others thought were foolhardy or impossible.
Go for it Ineos.
I’m far from being risk averse. Plenty of people can shake up and industry but, the automotive one takes literally billions. Musk has reportedly spent $6 billion on Tesla and is yet to return a profit.You can spot the Blues here. Very engineer. Unless there's a written thesis of 1 million words illustrating, down to the minute, the screw and grommit, how it will work and how it can't fail, it can't succeed.
The greens, they say it seems a bit far fetched, being so new and trying something that seems a bit, well, outlandish. Couldn't Ineos stick to what it knows best?
The yellows and the reds say, get on with it! It's there to conquer! Except the yellow is too busy talking and the red is shouting about why you haven't sold 25,000 units in 10 minutes.
We're all different, but one thing that is constant, is our power to break new ground and do things others thought were foolhardy or impossible.
Go for it Ineos.
By all means have a go, but as is ably being demonstrated, even something that sells in huge numbers and is actually groundbreaking technology wise requires almost bottomless pockets. OEMs are spending literally billions a year developing and certifying engines.
I think it comes as a shock to many when they discover that they can’t just bolt stuff in and press go. The legislation is both mind numbing and expensive
Max_Torque said:
How to make a small fortune in the passenger car business? Start with a large one.
He might be rich, but he really has absolutely no idea what on earth he's doing......
He'll be smart enough to make sure it's not any of his money. INEOS automative is whole owned by INEOS group, and...He might be rich, but he really has absolutely no idea what on earth he's doing......
Article said:
...the company is already working on a hydrogen fuel cell feasibility study, jointly funded by the UK government.
Max_Torque said:
ok, answer one question:
"How do you sell an inferior product for a higher price than your competition" ?
Veblen good"How do you sell an inferior product for a higher price than your competition" ?
Max_Torque said:
This is surely doomed! there are so many contradictions in their aspirations it would be funny it it wasn't real:
1) Using BMW 6 cyl engines, but "you can diagnose faults yourself" - really, have a go at that and get back to me. (they are also assuming BMW will release this proprietary info that effectively short circuits their own dealer network....)
2) Using BMW engines (high performance, finely tuned, but "will run on poor fuel" (have a go and sticking some low lubricity, hgih sulphur fuel in your 330d and get back to me on how it pans out (the answer is expensively)
3) Using BMW engines (product of several million euro worth of calibration and certification), but "the engines will run our own tune" (BMW won't warrant anything if you change the cal, and you'll have to completely re-cert the tail pipe emissions and OBD across world wide markets (which is roughly a 20 million quid job and takes 3 years)
4) Costs 10% more than a top of the range competitor, but is more basic (right, who exactly walks into a dealer and say "oh, no, i don;t want that nicely spec'd japanese pick up that does everything i want for less money. oh no, i'd like to spend 10% more on a completely unproven, less specified version that i have to fix myself after spending 10 years reading up on fault codes and buying £3k worth of diagnostic kit"
5) They'll sell 25,000 a year (LR only sold about 15k defenders on average) Without a military market, and competing against the likes of toyota and nissan who can leverage platform sharing, sorry, but no way do those numbers add up.
6) Body on frame with beam axles, but will be robust and reliable and put together by only 200 people. Have to sat in a Defender? panel gaps you can put your had through, the crashworthyness of a eggbox, and more rattles, squeaks and leaks than an, er, rattly, squeeky, colander....
7) Revealed in 2021. Hurray, 2 years till we get to see it, then what, when can we buy it. Because i'm not sure if you've noticed, but polluting, high CO2 vehicles are already looking a bit anti-social today, and EVs are taking over fast. Companies like Rivian are re-writing the rules faster than the existing OEs can pedal......
8) It's designed to encourage aftermarket development: Pull the other one mate. No OE who wants to stay in business is going to let people bolt completely untested, unproved and critically un-homologated bits to their vehicle, and even more certainly not whilst honouring the warranty..
and
9) 300 is going to have to buy one of these, it's his perfect car, and after months of claiming the new defender is sh*t, if he doesn't he's a two faced liar!
;-)
Haha! Very funny post. I agree, it's as if they haven't a clue. 1) Using BMW 6 cyl engines, but "you can diagnose faults yourself" - really, have a go at that and get back to me. (they are also assuming BMW will release this proprietary info that effectively short circuits their own dealer network....)
2) Using BMW engines (high performance, finely tuned, but "will run on poor fuel" (have a go and sticking some low lubricity, hgih sulphur fuel in your 330d and get back to me on how it pans out (the answer is expensively)
3) Using BMW engines (product of several million euro worth of calibration and certification), but "the engines will run our own tune" (BMW won't warrant anything if you change the cal, and you'll have to completely re-cert the tail pipe emissions and OBD across world wide markets (which is roughly a 20 million quid job and takes 3 years)
4) Costs 10% more than a top of the range competitor, but is more basic (right, who exactly walks into a dealer and say "oh, no, i don;t want that nicely spec'd japanese pick up that does everything i want for less money. oh no, i'd like to spend 10% more on a completely unproven, less specified version that i have to fix myself after spending 10 years reading up on fault codes and buying £3k worth of diagnostic kit"
5) They'll sell 25,000 a year (LR only sold about 15k defenders on average) Without a military market, and competing against the likes of toyota and nissan who can leverage platform sharing, sorry, but no way do those numbers add up.
6) Body on frame with beam axles, but will be robust and reliable and put together by only 200 people. Have to sat in a Defender? panel gaps you can put your had through, the crashworthyness of a eggbox, and more rattles, squeaks and leaks than an, er, rattly, squeeky, colander....
7) Revealed in 2021. Hurray, 2 years till we get to see it, then what, when can we buy it. Because i'm not sure if you've noticed, but polluting, high CO2 vehicles are already looking a bit anti-social today, and EVs are taking over fast. Companies like Rivian are re-writing the rules faster than the existing OEs can pedal......
8) It's designed to encourage aftermarket development: Pull the other one mate. No OE who wants to stay in business is going to let people bolt completely untested, unproved and critically un-homologated bits to their vehicle, and even more certainly not whilst honouring the warranty..
and
9) 300 is going to have to buy one of these, it's his perfect car, and after months of claiming the new defender is sh*t, if he doesn't he's a two faced liar!
;-)
Edited by Max_Torque on Wednesday 18th September 18:56
Bodo said:
This is from the article: will you be able to fix it by the side of the road with a hammer? "A 21st century hammer" smiles INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann, including empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own.
Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
If this is purely in terms of the engine, aren't the majority of the fault codes mandated by the OBD standard? My experience is that I've always been able to find those codes with a generic code reader, it's things like airbag ones etc that are a bit of a bugger without the correct proprietary diagnostics.Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
Grey area with things like, say, variable valve control - I've never gone looking for issues with such systems, but it's areas like that where I'd imagine you encounter the information you can get to being locked down, and thus the issues mentioned about BMW (or other mainstream manufacturer supplying engines) not being thrilled about enabling people to poke around in there too much. Entirely understandably in my opinion.
My suspicion is some form of tweaked system such that the interface for diagnostics is Ineos only, no connectivity to standard BMW offerings.
Overall, I want this thing to work out/be successful, but I'm dubious.
Lord Marylebone said:
You are extremely strange.
What on earth do you deem acceptable clothing for a man?
I often wear jeans, shoes, a shirt and a jacket/blazer, as do many people who like to put a tiny bit of effort into casual attire.
I can only assume you don't get invited anywhere that requires shoes or a blazer.
It’s not strange. It’s a half arsed attitude this guy is showing. Is he formal? Is he smart? Is he casual? Is he trying all three at once? I believe if you’re advertising yourself, and your business, and your aptitude, and your progressiveness dressing like that doesn’t make you look like a business man going for a carvery, it makes you look a tit. Would I dress like going for an interview? No I wouldn’t: actually I would dress like that at all. I have no problem with any of those clothes. I make an exception for them in combination. Not casual enough to be careless, not smart enough to be formal. It’s lazy. If it looks like Clarkson would wear it, then it’s sWhat on earth do you deem acceptable clothing for a man?
I often wear jeans, shoes, a shirt and a jacket/blazer, as do many people who like to put a tiny bit of effort into casual attire.
I can only assume you don't get invited anywhere that requires shoes or a blazer.
t. The retired man who doesn’t know how to dress so aims for something that will cover all the bases. Simonium said:
It’s not strange. It’s a half arsed attitude this guy is showing. Is he formal? Is he smart? Is he casual? Is he trying all three at once? I believe if you’re advertising yourself, and your business, and your aptitude, and your progressiveness dressing like that doesn’t make you look like a business man going for a carvery, it makes you look a tit. Would I dress like going for an interview? No I wouldn’t: actually I would dress like that at all. I have no problem with any of those clothes. I make an exception for them in combination. Not casual enough to be careless, not smart enough to be formal. It’s lazy. If it looks like Clarkson would wear it, then it’s st. The retired man who doesn’t know how to dress so aims for something that will cover all the bases.
Multi Billionaires don't tend to be as insecure about their attire as you are. t. The retired man who doesn’t know how to dress so aims for something that will cover all the bases. InitialDave said:
Bodo said:
This is from the article: will you be able to fix it by the side of the road with a hammer? "A 21st century hammer" smiles INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann, including empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own.
Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
If this is purely in terms of the engine, aren't the majority of the fault codes mandated by the OBD standard? My experience is that I've always been able to find those codes with a generic code reader, it's things like airbag ones etc that are a bit of a bugger without the correct proprietary diagnostics.Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
Grey area with things like, say, variable valve control - I've never gone looking for issues with such systems, but it's areas like that where I'd imagine you encounter the information you can get to being locked down, and thus the issues mentioned about BMW (or other mainstream manufacturer supplying engines) not being thrilled about enabling people to poke around in there too much. Entirely understandably in my opinion.
My suspicion is some form of tweaked system such that the interface for diagnostics is Ineos only, no connectivity to standard BMW offerings.
Overall, I want this thing to work out/be successful, but I'm dubious.
And i'm sorry, but if you can fix a BMW 6 cyl engine by the side of the road with a hammer, you're pretty lucky. I'm trying to think of a single fault on that (or in fact any other modern engine) that can be fixed with basic tools?
InitialDave said:
Bodo said:
This is from the article: will you be able to fix it by the side of the road with a hammer? "A 21st century hammer" smiles INEOS Automotive CEO, Dirk Heilmann, including empowering owners to understand diagnostic fault codes on their own.
Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
If this is purely in terms of the engine, aren't the majority of the fault codes mandated by the OBD standard? My experience is that I've always been able to find those codes with a generic code reader, it's things like airbag ones etc that are a bit of a bugger without the correct proprietary diagnostics.Empowering owners to understand fault codes - this could mean everything to provide this in an online documentation, as well as having features in the car directly to narrow down possible sources. I read from that, that they will not be secretive, and offer options for drivers to decide if they have the car fixed, or investigate themselves. State of the art for interested people today is to just google the fault codes, and find the text or even forum comments. I don't think Ineos is trying to make more people look into this than there are right now.
Grey area with things like, say, variable valve control - I've never gone looking for issues with such systems, but it's areas like that where I'd imagine you encounter the information you can get to being locked down, and thus the issues mentioned about BMW (or other mainstream manufacturer supplying engines) not being thrilled about enabling people to poke around in there too much. Entirely understandably in my opinion.
My suspicion is some form of tweaked system such that the interface for diagnostics is Ineos only, no connectivity to standard BMW offerings.
Overall, I want this thing to work out/be successful, but I'm dubious.
janesmith1950 said:
You can spot the Blues here. Very engineer. Unless there's a written thesis of 1 million words illustrating, down to the minute, the screw and grommit, how it will work and how it can't fail, it can't succeed.
And yet, each and every major OE employees literally thousands of these people. People like me, with a proven track record of delivering viable product.You might not like it, but it takes an engineer to enable a modern car. Yes it's generally very dull,, involves spreadsheets, calculations, simulations, test work both virtual and real, hours writing reports, collating, processing and analysing literally thousands of Gigabytes of data, and at the end of it, you have a saleable product.
At the end of the day, whilst the Blue sky thinkers can come up with an idea, it's us engineers that deliver that idea.
Max_Torque said:
What most people tend to miss, and what gives rise to hugely expensive repair bills and garages replacing stuff on a whim is that having a fault code is less than half the story. Anyone can get a fault code, but understanding why that code and the others were set, and what precise failure causes that requires specialist skills and knowledge well outside the scope of most people (and in fact,most garages too...) "How many times have your read on here of people saying "had to change my ecu because it was broken"? When ECU pretty much never break, they are solid state and well protected these days. No the "we had to change the ecu mate" is pretty much generally shorthand for "well we don't what the frack is wrong with your car so were blaming the bit we don't understand"...
And i'm sorry, but if you can fix a BMW 6 cyl engine by the side of the road with a hammer, you're pretty lucky. I'm trying to think of a single fault on that (or in fact any other modern engine) that can be fixed with basic tools?
While I've had pretty much that exact conversation with people on several occasions (people don't understand that a fault code just tells you what the car thinks is wrong), I took the "fix at the roadside with a hammer" thing to be a bit of hyperbole, and more meant to be interpreted as "fix independent of a dealer network anywhere in the world, with (relatively) basic tools/skills".And i'm sorry, but if you can fix a BMW 6 cyl engine by the side of the road with a hammer, you're pretty lucky. I'm trying to think of a single fault on that (or in fact any other modern engine) that can be fixed with basic tools?
Sure, you can't fix emissions control with a hammer, but you can avoid things like what should be fungible components having to be coded/authorised via dealer-only software to fix what is, frankly, a minor fault.
InitialDave said:
, but you can avoid things like what should be fungible components having to be coded/authorised via dealer-only software to fix what is, frankly, a minor fault.
Actually, if you want to sell a car in the US or Europe you can't! The certification standard requires you to be able to ensure that a vehicle is only fitted with electronic control units containing the same code (or an approved later release of the code) that the car was homologated with. This is to ensure in-use emissions compliance. As a result, all modern control units are coded to the cars VIN, and generally will be automatically updated by the manufacturers dealer network diagnostics systems automatically (or via over-air updates for very modern cars like Teslas etc).Max_Torque said:
What most people tend to miss, and what gives rise to hugely expensive repair bills and garages replacing stuff on a whim is that having a fault code is less than half the story. Anyone can get a fault code, but understanding why that code and the others were set, and what precise failure causes that requires specialist skills and knowledge well outside the scope of most people (and in fact,most garages too...) "How many times have your read on here of people saying "had to change my ecu because it was broken"? When ECU pretty much never break, they are solid state and well protected these days. No the "we had to change the ecu mate" is pretty much generally shorthand for "well we don't what the frack is wrong with your car so were blaming the bit we don't understand"...
And i'm sorry, but if you can fix a BMW 6 cyl engine by the side of the road with a hammer, you're pretty lucky. I'm trying to think of a single fault on that (or in fact any other modern engine) that can be fixed with basic tools?
The thing is its not the engine that's modern its the electronics and the bits that make it comply with emission laws And i'm sorry, but if you can fix a BMW 6 cyl engine by the side of the road with a hammer, you're pretty lucky. I'm trying to think of a single fault on that (or in fact any other modern engine) that can be fixed with basic tools?
strip off the DPF EGR SCR VNT its the same as it was in the early 2000's so engineering it to make it simple is
quite straight forward if you are selling to a market requiring simplicity provided the emissions requirement is also simple !!
if it's going to Europe ,north america ,Australia it needs the full job lot of emissions junk and the high tech ECU and associated sensors... mind I'm sure the ECU could be made more user friendly if they wanted too , so maybe Ineos OBD could work .
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff