RE: PH Investigates: Trouble At The 'Ring

[havoc]

George Bolton said:

havoc said:

I've been once, in '08. Went for a weekend, spectated the

- First lap some twit in a bright-green heavily modded Supra (UK reg and apparently 'well known') nearly takes me out by undertaking despite me indicating - life-saver did exactly that.
- Second lap was sublime - found a Scooby to follow who knew the track better - perfect!
- Third lap had 3 accidents which ruined the flow.
- Fourth lap was also pretty good...equal to a good B-road blat, certainly.

Now let me think first lap ever so travelling very slow because you don't know the way around, not looking in your mirrors because your concentrating on the road ahead, driving on the wrong side of the road because you are a we bit confused.

Yep been there

Well well well...

If I recall (and I do because you nearly totalled me and my car by your driving - emotion is very good at embedding memories**) I was right-of-centre already, doing a fair pace* on the run down to Flugplatz (I'd been through all the twists of Hatzenbach and Hocheichen, can't recall which side of the bridge we were when you passed though). And I was checking my mirrors thoroughly so as not to 'get in the way' of those who knew their way around. You were being overtaken by a 996 GT3 (which proceeded up my left-hand-side with plenty of space), and you couldn't be arsed to slow-down for me, instead squeezing between me and the grass on the right, despite my indicating right as I saw you both bearing down on me. If I'd not done a life-saver I'd have moved left straight into your path with you doing ~40+mph more than me!

MattOz was passengering with me at the time, co-piloting me through the corners, and if I recall he (another ring veteran) swore at your idiotic driving. Not saying I was perfect, but I WAS paying attention and I wasn't on the wrong side of the road...




* Yes, your car is almost certainly much quicker and grippier than most machines on there, but it's not a race, and you've no more right to the road than anyone else. If you feel you're somehow superior, then I'd take a real hard look at why you're trying to prove something...

** The Scooby was a late-model classic shape - v.4 or v.5, not an STi, and was blue. There was a red 996 which followed me following the Scooby for the last 1/3 of the lap.


Edit: Flathead (below) - I was 33 when I went and had done ~10 or a dozen trackdays in the UK. Hardly a 'novice', even if new to the 'ring...

Edited by havoc on Tuesday 18th January 19:15

[ellisd82]

WMP said:

I've been to the Ring every year since 2005 but won't be going again in a hurry.

In 2005 it was distilled petrol head nirvana with great cars and great people, almost all of whom were quick, safe and courteous drivers. It also wasn't too busy.

Over the years it has got so busy that you will never get a lap that isn't interrupted by a crash/near miss and the driving standards have slipped to a level that means what used to be a controlled risk is now an accident waiting to happen. For me this is because of the 'touristification' (for want of a better phrase) of the place meaning that Joe Bloggs who has never done a trackday in his/her life and has no experience of a performance car can fly in having played on his/her playstation for a day and hire a track car and do his worst.

It is a shame. But when Top Gear let the cat out of the bag years ago it started a series of events which has brought us to where we are today.

I hope it will one day return to being a destination for what I can only describe as pure petrol heads as the place has such a romantic mystique and history it is a shame to see things as they are at present with the place resembling Blackpool.

Anyway, I'll sign off now. Next thing you know Porsche will be moving production to China.......

Tourism can bring much needed facilities to a place with none, but it can also strangle the reason people went there in the first place.

Never been to the Ring but can completely agree with you because of your point of 'touristification'. It happens everywhere, thanks to media publicity. have you seen the video of the '7 second ring king', some dense chav who crashes as soon as he gets on the track!
Great biking roads have been published too and now they are a traffic nightmare amd dangerous due to out-of-town 'Tourists' trying their look on roads they do not know.
The TT has become to commercial for me, I now go to the Manx GP, quieter and just as good!
I am planning a stop off at the Ring on a tour of Germany next year.

[Lord Flathead]

George Bolton said:

havoc said:

I've been once, in '08. Went for a weekend, spectated the

- First lap some twit in a bright-green heavily modded Supra (UK reg and apparently 'well known') nearly takes me out by undertaking despite me indicating - life-saver did exactly that.
- Second lap was sublime - found a Scooby to follow who knew the track better - perfect!
- Third lap had 3 accidents which ruined the flow.
- Fourth lap was also pretty good...equal to a good B-road blat, certainly.




Now let me think first lap ever so travelling very slow because you don't know the way around, not looking in your mirrors because your concentrating on the road ahead, driving on the wrong side of the road because you are a we bit confused.

Yep been there

There should be some kind of basic test or age criteria IMO. That would help reduce the risks.

BTW, Top Lurking

[TAHodgson]

I do hope the 'ring is still operating for years to come, as a life-long petrolhead (or should that be pistonhead? ) but only a year of legal road driving under my belt, it's going to be a couple of years more experience (and NCB) before I've got chance to get a warm hatch or even slightly "PH" car and I would truly LOVE to take a roadtrip with some others down the the 'ring, which I think would probably be as much fun as the lapping itself!

[Pip1968]

It's not just her though, it's these 50 year old wkers who think they're Walter Rorhl in their GT 3 RSs. Well done, you have a fast car and know the circuit. Go to an organised track day if you don't want to be inconvienced by people like my brother in a 1.1 Saxo on his first ever lap.

I think this poster misses the point. These "50 year old wkers" are just people of all ages that go to the track regularly and get fed up of coming across numpties who are all over the track and do not use their mirrors and hence prevent others from making progress. It is no different from the idiots you see every day in England on their mobiles in the outside lane of the motorway when the inner lanes are 'empty'. England is saturated with unaware and poor drivers who know nothing of lane discipline. Go abroad and you see how much better and aware drivers are compared to the UK.

Mirror, signal manoeuvre and be aware of dangers coming up and what is going on behind you. Myopia and tunnel vision are not assets on track. On the upside I think most go there for the experience as a whole, track, cars, scenery, ticking engines, hot brakes beers and steak. At least if the prices go up it will stop the spotty inexperienced drivers with baked bean tins on their cars from puting others at risk.

As has been said hopefully the company will go bust and the state will take over and things will return to normal.

Pip

[George Bolton]

havoc said:

George Bolton said:

havoc said:

I've been once, in '08. Went for a weekend, spectated the

- First lap some twit in a bright-green heavily modded Supra (UK reg and apparently 'well known') nearly takes me out by undertaking despite me indicating - life-saver did exactly that.
- Second lap was sublime - found a Scooby to follow who knew the track better - perfect!
- Third lap had 3 accidents which ruined the flow.
- Fourth lap was also pretty good...equal to a good B-road blat, certainly.

Now let me think first lap ever so travelling very slow because you don't know the way around, not looking in your mirrors because your concentrating on the road ahead, driving on the wrong side of the road because you are a we bit confused.

Yep been there

Well well well...

If I recall (and I do because you nearly totalled me and my car by your driving - emotion is very good at embedding memories**) I was right-of-centre already, doing a fair pace* on the run down to Flugplatz (I'd been through all the twists of Hatzenbach and Hocheichen, can't recall which side of the bridge we were when you passed though). And I was checking my mirrors thoroughly so as not to 'get in the way' of those who knew their way around. You were being overtaken by a 996 GT3 (which proceeded up my left-hand-side with plenty of space), and you couldn't be arsed to slow-down for me, instead squeezing between me and the grass on the right, despite my indicating right as I saw you both bearing down on me. If I'd not done a life-saver I'd have moved left straight into your path with you doing ~40+mph more than me!

MattOz was passengering with me at the time, co-piloting me through the corners, and if I recall he (another ring veteran) swore at your idiotic driving. Not saying I was perfect, but I WAS paying attention and I wasn't on the wrong side of the road...




* Yes, your car is almost certainly much quicker and grippier than most machines on there, but it's not a race, and you've no more right to the road than anyone else. If you feel you're somehow superior, then I'd take a real hard look at why you're trying to prove something...

** The Scooby was a late-model classic shape - v.4 or v.5, not an STi, and was blue. There was a red 996 which followed me following the Scooby for the last 1/3 of the lap.


Edit: Flathead (below) - I was 33 when I went and had done ~10 or a dozen trackdays in the UK. Hardly a 'novice', even if new to the 'ring...

Edited by havoc on Tuesday 18th January 19:15

`


Oops sorry, If you are over again and see me introduce yourself and I'll buy you a beer no offence intended,

must stop chasing GT3'3s can never catch them anyway

[tertius]

PaulMoor said:

I think seeing that on top gear was what finaly put me off wanting to go, Sabine Schmitz shouting and waving at other drivers for getting in her way. If I go on a circuit I want to be able to drive at my only ability, not what the person behind thinks I should be doing. (I took her driving at typical as she was happy to do that on TV)

I believe Top Gear to be an entertainment program, so its just possible that what you see on the screen has been slightly exaggerated for effect. Or even, whisper it ... staged ...

I'll tell you something else as well, you know that sequence of her driving the van round the circuit .. where exterior shots of the track are interspersed with interior shots of Sabine ... they aren't in the right order! I kid you not.

Bl**dy useless for learning the circuit I can tell you ...

[K50 DEL]

Harry Monk said:

There's also the experience curve effect. My first trip was in 1997 in a Honda Accord on the way to the Frankfurt Show and yes, I did drive straight across Adenauer Forst. Since then I've noticed that drivers were getting quicker simply because they'd logged a huge number of laps. After many hundreds of laps, I can now drive an 8 minute BTG(cue driving god taunts) but wouldn't want a beginner to try to imitate my driving. I remember being scared witless many years ago by a guy who did a 9m30s BTG in an Audi TT, thinking it was the most incredible piece of driving I'd ever seen. Noob. Experienced Ringers have logged the hours. There's no fast track to that experience. Hours spent on GT5 don't help. Buying horsepower often doesn't help. The flipside of this is that the faster you get, the more frustrating and unfulfilling TF driving becomes. I've spoken to a number of experienced TF drivers who reach a stage where they grow out of it. The challenge for the Ring management will be to bring through a new generation of TF drivers without pricing them out of the market.

Enough rambling from this old fart.

This is what happened with Ben Lovejoy if I remember correctly.
I used to follow the trip reports on his oracle of a website avidly, despite never having been to the Ring and currently not having a suitable vehicle.

I was disappointed when he stopped going, but I guess after that many trips over that many years you've kind of done all you can and it's time to move on.... as you say, replacing those old-timers is what will keep the place operational, albeit changed somewhat from the sounds of it.

[Mr_B]

If you think Top Gear has much to do with it, you have no idea about the 'Ring. Firstly they were probably 15 years or so behind the motoring mags that made the Ring popular in this country after more and more features started appearing in the pages of every type of car mag. That meant everyone from Max Power chavs in Nova's to people who thought it would be a good jolly to take their city bonus paid for 911 for the weekend.
If you thought TG, who's majority viewers are dads, housewifes and kids meant an explosion in people going to the Ring, you can't have ever been there before.

I used to go, but it got too busy, too expensive and now it looks like the prices will never ever be sensible again. Oh to have lived there when there was one old guy selling tickets like a bus conductor in what looked like a sentry post.

[ringweekends]

havoc said:

You were being overtaken by a 996 GT3 (which proceeded up my left-hand-side with plenty of space), and you couldn't be arsed to slow-down for me, instead squeezing between me and the grass on the right, despite my indicating right as I saw you both bearing down on me. If I'd not done a life-saver I'd have moved left straight into your path

I'm sorry - I've read that a few times and I'm still confused.

I've been out with George more than a few times and he's a gentleman not prone to driving like a cock. You're on your first ever lap. I appreciate it must have been a bit intense for you but reading the above respectfully suggest you may have been a little confused as to which side you needed to be.

Still - I see your experience repeated often on the Ring, but the great mix of abilities and vehicles are what makes TF so special, and why each lap is still interesting for me.

[havoc]

ringweekends said:

havoc said:

You were being overtaken by a 996 GT3 (which proceeded up my left-hand-side with plenty of space), and you couldn't be arsed to slow-down for me, instead squeezing between me and the grass on the right, despite my indicating right as I saw you both bearing down on me. If I'd not done a life-saver I'd have moved left straight into your path

I'm sorry - I've read that a few times and I'm still confused.

I've been out with George more than a few times and he's a gentleman not prone to driving like a cock. You're on your first ever lap. I appreciate it must have been a bit intense for you but reading the above respectfully suggest you may have been a little confused as to which side you needed to be.

Still - I see your experience repeated often on the Ring, but the great mix of abilities and vehicles are what makes TF so special, and why each lap is still interesting for me.

I needed to be on the RHS of the road so people could pass me on the left - as is the law in Germany. I wasn't on the right, but I was centre-right and started moving over when I saw faster cars behind me. And then got passed on both sides! As I said above - I may have been a 'ring novice but I wasn't a trackday novice and had someone with a lot of 'ring experience sat next to me.
(You are right though - the 'ring is a very different environment to a UK trackday - feels a lot more 'free for all', and there's armco right THERE!)

Maybe it wasn't George (his ready apology above supports your comment about his character - if it was someone else driving then I'll retract my comments), but it certainly was George's car - George, was anyone else with you driving your car in Oct-08?


As for TF - maybe my experience that day (repeated closures, 1 fatality, 1 near-miss for me) has clouded my judgement, but I'll only be back on a trackday - both for insurance and personal safety reasons.
And part of that IS the great mix of abilities and vehicles - in my experience the most dangerous people are the complete novices and those who think they've seen/done it all, and get blase/casual. As an example, I'd never go on a novice trackday and I'd never go on a test-day at a UK circuit, because I see both of those as higher-risk. And on the N'schliefe you've also got such large speed-differentials between cars (due to either car or driver ability), reducing observation/reaction times.

[Philman123]

First trip was Easter 2005, stayed at Eddies and been every year since. Enevitable maybe that the corporates take over but in 6 years prices have more doubled and a clear lap on a public day is wishful thinking. Sad but maybe they need to introduce a queing system to give a decent gap between each car / bike.

Spa is the new ring, fantastic experiance

[flemke]

There is zero risk that they will cease to offer public lapping at the NS. For one thing, it's entitled in German law. For another thing, the whole issue concerns servicing debt, either the state's or the CRH's, and the only way to do that is to produce revenue by renting out the circuit.
There is also zero chance that prices won't go to the ceiling. When it was run by the state, they could justify operating at a loss because the tax revenue generated via local businesses more than made up for it. Now that a private operator has the CR, that holder couldn't care less what happens to the local economy, so long as he is maximising his own income.

In one area, the PH investigation is a little light. There is no mention of the serious charges that have been brought against Kafitz and his pals, who have been accused of taking 6-7m euros out for themselves, via kickbacks and other forms of fraud.
Kafitz and his co-conspirators did enough that was worthy of investigation that Wilhelm Hahne (brother of former Formula One driver Hubert) wrote a 600-page book on the subject:
http://www.amazon.de/N%C3%BCrburgring-2009-Skandal...

[4lf4-155]

jimbobs said:

While we're all wallowing in nostalgia, here's a photo of the main straight, taken on a Saturday afternoon in May 2003:



The whole lap had been like that - two of us in convoy and not another car to be seen. We'd parked in the main car park, right next to the cafe. There was the three of us, some crazy Dutch Morgan drivers, a couple of Brit TVRs, a handful of bikers and that was about it. Not a closure all day. Definitely "The right crowd, and no crowding".

The last time I went was in 2007 & there were no-necked brit teenagers driving Corsas with exhausts I could fit my head in.

The biggest block for me these days is insurance - I am not willing to put my car, house and therefore my marriage on the line for the sake of a few laps.

My only hope is that in 10 years everyone will have forgotten about it & I can sneak over again. As mentioned above, it's not just the laps but the cameraderie of the whole trip that I miss...

Those were the days.

[Mr Whippy]

havoc said:

I needed to be on the RHS of the road so people could pass me on the left - as is the law in Germany. I wasn't on the right, but I was centre-right and started moving over when I saw faster cars behind me. And then got passed on both sides! As I said above - I may have been a 'ring novice but I wasn't a trackday novice and had someone with a lot of 'ring experience sat next to me.

You really don't need to explain yourself.

Imagine this on a UK motorway.

"Yes officer, I undertook at +40mph in L1 on a motorway. There was an inexperienced noob in L2 at 50mph, and L3 had a Porsche in it going at about 80mph holding me up, so the only option for my faster car was to go past them both in L1"

Ummmmm...


But it's all ok to get away with what is essentially the same on the one way delimited toll road it seems

Dave

[k-ink]

Philman123 said:

Spa is the new ring, fantastic experiance

When that gets too busy in future we'll blame it on your first post

[Motorrad]

motor mad said:

to see people blaming Top Gear for the Rings demise is crazy.

While it's correct to say that it used to get busy at peak times before TG and the car mags started REALLY publicising the place since that I really do think things went downhill.
Loads more Brits, with delusions of driving god-hood crashing their cars and generally being obnoxious. Before TG many of these oiks had never heard of the place.

It's now become a right of passage and almost on the stag-do, holiday-to-spain brit boy piss up circuit and believe me it wasn't before TG. At least not in my experience.

I do accept though that with the huge increase in the availability of information courtesy of the web that the word was going to get out sooner or later. After all some of us even joined together there and became 'ringers'

[Aused]

Great when governments get involved in the private market isn't it? Things were going along nicely until they picked a 'winner' to receive the taxpayers money. now the whole thing may go end up and we all pay the price. Does any of this sound familiar?

[flemke]

Motorrad said:

motor mad said:

to see people blaming Top Gear for the Rings demise is crazy.

While it's correct to say that it used to get busy at peak times before TG and the car mags started REALLY publicising the place since that I really do think things went downhill.
Loads more Brits, with delusions of driving god-hood crashing their cars and generally being obnoxious. Before TG many of these oiks had never heard of the place.

It's now become a right of passage and almost on the stag-do, holiday-to-spain brit boy piss up circuit and believe me it wasn't before TG. At least not in my experience.

I do accept though that with the huge increase in the availability of information courtesy of the web that the word was going to get out sooner or later. After all some of us even joined together there and became 'ringers'

As you say, for any of us who had "discovered" it before the publicity got ramped up, things were always going to get worse, but the same is true for him or her who discovered it only last year and is looking forward to many happy returns - it's going to get worse in future for them, too. The financial ambitions of the new CRHs will compel them to raise fees or worsen the experience, or both. The idea that now one has to pay 50c to take a pi55 is a joke. The idea that you have to carry around one of their absurd prepaid cards just to buy a candy bar is a joke. There is now no chance that they will do what they have needed for years to do - split the TF sessions into bikes-only and cars-only.
How long before they start to charge admission to people who want to watch a Saturday afternoon VLN race from the public land at Breidscheid or Brunnchen (as they do for the 24)? Track day organisers have already been informed that their circuit fees will be much higher in '11. It has already started to happen that local hoteliers and restauranters are losing custom. As time passes, and today's experienced visitors attend less but are naturally replaced by newcomers who have little knowledge of the traditional hosts, the locals will lose much more of their hard-won trade. Just a simple fact illustrates the problem: if you've got a 200-room hotel, and spend, say, 4,000 euros on an ad in evo, you're spending less than half of one day's takings for that ad. For an ad of exactly the same size and impact, the owner of the peaceful 10-room hotel would have to sacrifice a fortnight's revenue. They could never afford that - it couldn't pay for itself - so they won't advertise, Lindner will, and the situation will only worsen.
It's a terrible shame that so much long-term damage could be done by just a few crooks and idiots, but there we are.

[flemke]

Aused said:

Great when governments get involved in the private market isn't it? Things were going along nicely until they picked a 'winner' to receive the taxpayers money. now the whole thing may go end up and we all pay the price. Does any of this sound familiar?

It wasn't only a case of nanny-state interference and believing one's own bull5hit. Crimes were committed, and substantial sums of money went to undeserving pockets.