Ask a car salesman anything...anything at all.
Discussion
Butter Face said:
Yes it is 'bad form'
TBH any dealer offering extra discount for you paying cash or finance is on to a loser anyway, I give one price, pay how you like.
If you go in messing around and playing games it only complicates the procedure for yourself, if you just set it out nice and straight and easy it will make your life easier, not just the salesman, we're just people doing a job, sell the car, ask for a deal, take it or leave it, don't mess about and you'll be much happier and likely just get a better deal IMO.
Well, you say 'offering extra discount for you paying cash or finance is on to a loser anyway' - but they (the seller) aren't, though, are they?TBH any dealer offering extra discount for you paying cash or finance is on to a loser anyway, I give one price, pay how you like.
If you go in messing around and playing games it only complicates the procedure for yourself, if you just set it out nice and straight and easy it will make your life easier, not just the salesman, we're just people doing a job, sell the car, ask for a deal, take it or leave it, don't mess about and you'll be much happier and likely just get a better deal IMO.
It's an age old trick which has existed in the sales industry for decades, whether its cars or not.. offer a discount on the sticker price (leaves you feeling great!), but then you still end up paying MORE for the car than it actually cost in the first place (the only loser in this situation is the customer, the salesman hasn't lost out here??)
Thats not the salesman trying to make my life easier lol, that is very simply them trying to make more money off me - which i accept is their prerogative, equally, its mine to try and save as much money as i can?
The bottom line in this situation (mine personally i mean), is that the this car salesman is not going to make any extra money off me. Whether its through add-ons, or finance, or whatever - but i'm sure he'll be thinking about how he can. Is there really something so wrong with me doing the same and trying to SAVE myself as much as i can? We're not going to suddenly forget that sales is a very much incentive based industry, where your (the seller's) personal gain is directly effected by how much more you can make me spend? Isn't that the very reason this thread has gone on for so long?
i doubt we'd be at page 300+ if the OP had said 'ask a car dealership receptionist anything, anything at all' lol
For the record Butter Face - If i come across as abrasive, i'm not trying to be lol, but i'm yet to meet a commission based salesman that had my best interests at heart (if thats the way to put it)
Edited by kelevraz on Saturday 18th May 14:27
Our job is to sell you a clean, well prepared, hopefully reliable car, warranted, and make as much profit from it as possible, both for the salesmans sake and our employers sake.
You are correct in stating that looking after YOUR best interests ends there, what about OUR best interests, that is making a profit, which some seem to view as a dirty word.
My concerns end at your finances, thats not our interest.
If we give you the best price that we can for a car that we are selling, how you pay for it, is up to you.
If you wish to finance the whole amount at 50% APR, then how is that our responsibility that you are going to end up paying a lot more for the car, than if you had purchased it outright.
Im pretty sure, that you dont go to work to earn no money, but it is expected that we do?
You are correct in stating that looking after YOUR best interests ends there, what about OUR best interests, that is making a profit, which some seem to view as a dirty word.
My concerns end at your finances, thats not our interest.
If we give you the best price that we can for a car that we are selling, how you pay for it, is up to you.
If you wish to finance the whole amount at 50% APR, then how is that our responsibility that you are going to end up paying a lot more for the car, than if you had purchased it outright.
Im pretty sure, that you dont go to work to earn no money, but it is expected that we do?
Edited by Mexman on Saturday 18th May 15:04
I'm sorry, I don't get your point. You wanted to know if it's a good idea to go along asking for a discount for finance only to flip at the end and say you're paying cash, I said it's not and you'd be better off saying that you're paying cash, you want X, Y or Z and get on with it.
You're overcomplicating the whole situation, just act like a normal person and you'll get treated as such, when someone says 'How are you paying for it', tell them, don't lie (or hide it because that's just odd) and if you're happy with the deal buy it.
Buying or selling cars isn't rocket science, as we've been told, we're not professionals.
You're overcomplicating the whole situation, just act like a normal person and you'll get treated as such, when someone says 'How are you paying for it', tell them, don't lie (or hide it because that's just odd) and if you're happy with the deal buy it.
Buying or selling cars isn't rocket science, as we've been told, we're not professionals.
kelevraz said:
It's an age old trick which has existed in the sales industry for decades, whether its cars or not.. offer a discount on the sticker price (leaves you feeling great!), but then you still end up paying MORE for the car than it actually cost in the first place
Unless you have unconditional access to 0% lending, you're always going to pay more to buy something that you want, using someone else's money to do so, irrespective of discount - because a person who has got the actual cash will benefit. Discount or margin isn't contingent on how you pay. If you've actually got the cash, then fine. If you haven't, then the argument is moot. Most people haven't got it.
Deal commissions aren't what they were either, thanks to low interest rates for a decade plus and relatively easy access for most, unless they're absolute scutters, then the finance company can name their rate anyway - and do. Rendering any discount almost immaterial.
Taking finance, then settling it off only results in a clawback for the dealer anyway. Long gone are the days of finance comms into four figures and salespeople's take of that into several hundred. Most places pay a flat £25-50 per finance case. Which often gets deducted if they settle early (to either take advanatage of a screen price discount or manufacturer deposit contribution - that also gets clawed back by the manufacturer).
People whom you evaluate as a likely candidate to either settle within your clawback period or to potentially default are best treated as cash buyers anyway.
Not to mention that under the guiding principles of "Treating Customers Fairly" it isn't best practice to offer one price for cash and another for finance, because we're not supposed to be seen to be incentiivising consumers to take on any more debt than they strictly need to/or taking it on at all if they have other means available.
That is why current levels of financial pre-qualification exist in the industry. Could be a very sticky wicket for a dealer and the returns aren't worth the risk in most cases.
There's the price, here's what I can do it for, whether you choose to pay outright, use my funding (in which case additional fees and interest are disclosed in line with FCA guidelines and so on, or source your own funding elsewhere. Easiest way to do it by far.
Oh, and in trying to save themselves the most money, customers lie to us far more than we ever are able to lie back, due to consumer laws, customer satisfaction, social media negative press etc. There's not remotely any comparable comeback on a customer who misrepresented their PX or situation to gain an advantage.
A skilled salesperson has to always be aware that is every customer's underlying goal and they have no moral qualms about ripping off a dealer. So we have to be alert and diligent, which means questions and evaluation of resulting answers as either truth, lies or possible lies that could cost us further down the line.
Edited by 4941cc on Saturday 18th May 16:27
4941cc said:
Unless you have unconditional access to 0% lending, you're always going to pay more to buy something that you want, using someone else's money to do so, irrespective of discount - because a person who has got the actual cash will benefit.
Fair, ill give you that. Edited by 4941cc on Saturday 18th May 16:27
4941cc said:
Oh, and in trying to save themselves the most money, customers lie to us far more than we ever are able to lie back, due to consumer laws, customer satisfaction, social media negative press etc. There's not remotely any comparable comeback on a customer who misrepresented their PX or situation to gain an advantage.
Never seen a car dealer that was worried about social media or negative press.. i'm not doubting that they exist, but i imagine its pretty few and far between, considering that most dealerships are actually tiny lolEdited by 4941cc on Saturday 18th May 16:27
Again, i've literally never heard of a consumer getting one over on a dealer by lying about their PX (or their financial situation), so you'll have to enlighten me..., how exactly does someone lying about their PX end up benefitting them?
They describe what the car is like, you value is at X, make an agreement based on this, they show up, you inspect it and the car isn't what they described, they don't get what they were offered. Isn't this basically the life story of WBAC? Or am i missing something when it comes to PX?? Because i'd be extremely shocked to hear you're still forced to pay them what you agreed to. A contract is two ways. A waste of time on the dealers behalf, definitely, but it cant be more than that?
kelevraz said:
Again, i've literally never heard of a consumer getting one over on a dealer by lying about their PX (or their financial situation), so you'll have to enlighten me..., how exactly does someone lying about their PX end up benefitting them?
By finding the lazy sales person that doesn't get off their arse and look at or drive a part exchange. Full service history being one, vehicle condition being another. I don't do part exchanges anymore thankfully, but I've appraised cars that are meant to be 'lovely' and 'only changing because we've outgrown it', but I've found headgaskets gone, f
ked gearboxes, witness marks on the a pillars from where a bonnet has hit them in a shunt, cars that massively pull one way or other when you drive it down the street. I once worked with a lady that rarely looked at a part exchange, her 'highlight' was a Range Rover that didn't have reverse. She only found out when she tried to drive it round to the part ex area...I've also had part exchanges come in after I've appraised them missing the radio that was in it, parcel shelf (who does that?) and in one case steel wheels instead of the alloys it was on when we agreed the deal. And each time they were sent away to get the items or we adjusted the deal accordingly.
I still get customers lying in fleet, we'll be ordering 50 units this year FB. I get discount from the manufacturer based on 50 units, deal for an initial batch of 15 units comes in and er, that's it. Change of plan FB, we're not going to order 50 anymore. Righto, don't expect a big discount next time round then....
Had a chap in this week just looking to change his 2014 focus as he ‘fancied a change’
Er, not because it’s leaking coolant from a crack in the head then?
Didn’t know anything about it apparently.
Not saying that some people who sell cars are economical with the truth, but punters to try it too, thankfully most on both sides are decent normal human beings.
Er, not because it’s leaking coolant from a crack in the head then?
Didn’t know anything about it apparently.
Not saying that some people who sell cars are economical with the truth, but punters to try it too, thankfully most on both sides are decent normal human beings.
kelevraz said:
They describe what the car is like, you value is at X, make an agreement based on this, they show up, you inspect it and the car isn't what they described, they don't get what they were offered. Isn't this basically the life story of WBAC? Or am i missing something when it comes to PX??
In most cases the PX is only cursorily reinspected when the transaction is concluded. If you've swopped the alloys and new PS4's for Linglongs on steelies they're quite unlikely to notice.In the pre-pedestrian-safety days I had a bonnet mascot bolted to a car. Remarked during PX inspection that I'd be removing it, but when the deal was concluded days later the salesman seemed surprised to find this meant two tidy but unsightly holes left in the bonnet...
A friend px-ed a car with an intermittent non-starting fault, and had to get the car AA-Relayed to just round the corner from the dealership...
silentbrown said:
A friend px-ed a car with an intermittent non-starting fault, and had to get the car AA-Relayed to just round the corner from the dealership...
One of the main reasons I got out of the trade years ago.People often lie through their teeth when trying to offload their problem cars onto the dealers.
Anyhow, good thread, been watching for a while.
I take my hat off to our resident sales people for their input.
Over the years I've learn't to be cautious about someone trading a car in, particularly when it comes to the service history:
Me: "so does it have a full service history?"
Them: "errr, ummm, ahhh, errr yeah it does, it's err done by a guy down the road, every year"
Me: "so the service book is in the car and it's all stamped up?"
Them: "errr, ummm, errr, ahhh, yes it's stamped but I think it's at home.... yes it's at home" (why is it always "at home"! )
So no service history then and it's priced as such and they never seem surprised with a low offer, which means.......... they know it hasn't any service history!
Me: "so does it have a full service history?"
Them: "errr, ummm, ahhh, errr yeah it does, it's err done by a guy down the road, every year"
Me: "so the service book is in the car and it's all stamped up?"
Them: "errr, ummm, errr, ahhh, yes it's stamped but I think it's at home.... yes it's at home" (why is it always "at home"! )
So no service history then and it's priced as such and they never seem surprised with a low offer, which means.......... they know it hasn't any service history!
I remember doing a deal over the phone on a Rover 25, with the customer px'ing a rover 220 coupe. Customer was 150 miles away. I got to the destination, cleaned the car for him at the local car hand car wash so that I could present it a well as possible as he hadn't seen the car. I got to his house, he looked at the car he'd bought and said something along the lines of I'll need to test drive it, as I've never bought a car unseen. So ff he went, whilst I appraised his px. He was being a bit of a dick tbh, so I took a look under the bonnet undid the coolant cap to take a look, and thought, hmmm that's fresh coolant I wonder...? Anyway at this point he comes back, we complete the deal and off I go back to the dealership. I got about 3 miles when I got to a round about, and the front tyre almost rolls of the rim..... sending me very nearly into a truck on the outside of the roundabout. Emergency change completed with a rusty jack and wheel brace and I got it home.
Following day the techs say the car needs a head gasket..... which is what I was wondering.
Customers can absolutely be utter cretins, the head gasket I maybe should have mentioned but sending me on my way with a tyre that has lost its beading was just as trick....
Following day the techs say the car needs a head gasket..... which is what I was wondering.
Customers can absolutely be utter cretins, the head gasket I maybe should have mentioned but sending me on my way with a tyre that has lost its beading was just a
s trick....I just took delivery of a new car. The sales person and I talked about PX. He said that if the PX is going to auction then they don't bother doing a detailed assessment, because all they care about is the things that would affect its value in the auction hall. So they care about bodywork, they care that it starts and reverses, they care that the paperwork is in order, but they don't care about much else. It will soon be someone else's problem so why bother?
OTOH, if the PX is going to be retailed as approved used then they care very much.
OTOH, if the PX is going to be retailed as approved used then they care very much.
Jerry Can said:
I remember doing a deal over the phone on a Rover 25, with the customer px'ing a rover 220 coupe. Customer was 150 miles away. I got to the destination, cleaned the car for him at the local car hand car wash so that I could present it a well as possible as he hadn't seen the car. I got to his house, he looked at the car he'd bought and said something along the lines of I'll need to test drive it, as I've never bought a car unseen. So ff he went, whilst I appraised his px. He was being a bit of a dick tbh, so I took a look under the bonnet undid the coolant cap to take a look, and thought, hmmm that's fresh coolant I wonder...? Anyway at this point he comes back, we complete the deal and off I go back to the dealership. I got about 3 miles when I got to a round about, and the front tyre almost rolls of the rim..... sending me very nearly into a truck on the outside of the roundabout. Emergency change completed with a rusty jack and wheel brace and I got it home.
Following day the techs say the car needs a head gasket..... which is what I was wondering.
Customers can absolutely be utter cretins, the head gasket I maybe should have mentioned but sending me on my way with a tyre that has lost its beading was just as trick....
Could be worse, you might have a 100 mile drive in a car stinking of cheese on toast with a sFollowing day the techs say the car needs a head gasket..... which is what I was wondering.
Customers can absolutely be utter cretins, the head gasket I maybe should have mentioned but sending me on my way with a tyre that has lost its beading was just a
s trick....t on the bonnet.....Of the retail dealerships I've worked at, none have had an auction policy. They all had 4 or 5 traders that bought our part exchanges, so getting it wrong was costly. Since going in to fleet I think I've averaged 1 part exchange a year, and they've only been because used have wanted the part exchanges, so again they needed to be appraised properly.
Fast Bug said:
I still get customers lying in fleet, we'll be ordering 50 units this year FB. I get discount from the manufacturer based on 50 units, deal for an initial batch of 15 units comes in and er, that's it. Change of plan FB, we're not going to order 50 anymore. Righto, don't expect a big discount next time round then....
I wondered how that worked for cars - it's absolutely routine in our (industrial sales) business. One customer got pricing for 50Kpcs, (about $1M value) placed a PO for 50K with a delivery schedule of 100pcs now, the balance TBA. Accounting won't let you enter a TBA order, so his order is just 100pcs. Got very upset he couldn't have the 50K price.Sheepshanks said:
I wondered how that worked for cars - it's absolutely routine in our (industrial sales) business. One customer got pricing for 50Kpcs, (about $1M value) placed a PO for 50K with a delivery schedule of 100pcs now, the balance TBA. Accounting won't let you enter a TBA order, so his order is just 100pcs. Got very upset he couldn't have the 50K price.
Using the 50 units spread over the year as an example, the customer will get terms from the manufacturer that will run to the end of the year. So in theory they could just order 1 vehicle at a time. If at the end of the year they haven't ordered anywhere near what they said they'd do, unless they was a very good reason, they wouldn't get terms again. I've never known a manufacturer to claw support back, so the customer could end up with 1 very cheap vehicle. But only once....Fast Bug said:
Using the 50 units spread over the year as an example, the customer will get terms from the manufacturer that will run to the end of the year. So in theory they could just order 1 vehicle at a time. If at the end of the year they haven't ordered anywhere near what they said they'd do, unless they was a very good reason, they wouldn't get terms again. I've never known a manufacturer to claw support back, so the customer could end up with 1 very cheap vehicle. But only once....
Uising your numbers we'd put an MOQ to get the 50 unit pricing that might be something like 15 cars with firm delivery dates in the next 3 months.. I guess a bit different for us as we'd expect reasonably steady demand, but for cars it could be very lumpy.Cars can be difficult to predict if it's a user chooser policy, you could end up with none or lots. I've moved back to vans as I much prefer the lcv side of things, and they're usually in batches and most companies forecast at the start of the year how many they want and when. You do get a few companies that will have a rolling amount each month as they find it easier to process and work out change overs.
I remember once reading a presumably apocryphal story about a man driving to a dealership to buy a new car and PX his existing one. He test drove a car, the dealer checked over his PX and they did a deal, everyone happy. The new car would be ready to go the next day and the buyer said he only lived up the road so he might as well leave his car where he’d left it parked neatly at the garage and walk back home.
Next day the customer picked up his new car and the dealer waved him off before jumping into the PX to move it round the back. He turned the ignition key and nothing happened. He tried again and again but there was no sign of life, so he popped the bonnet to see what the problem was. There was no engine in there. The dealer called his buyer in despair calling him a cheat and threatening legal action only to be politely informed that Mr Customer lived up the hill from the garage, had coasted down having removed the engine to sell on and that the dealer had priced it as seen = tough st.
Next day the customer picked up his new car and the dealer waved him off before jumping into the PX to move it round the back. He turned the ignition key and nothing happened. He tried again and again but there was no sign of life, so he popped the bonnet to see what the problem was. There was no engine in there. The dealer called his buyer in despair calling him a cheat and threatening legal action only to be politely informed that Mr Customer lived up the hill from the garage, had coasted down having removed the engine to sell on and that the dealer had priced it as seen = tough s
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