British Leyland -They were crap and they knew they were.
Discussion
Were the much-talked-about union and quality troubles specific to BL? How did Ford compare?
My (dodgy) memory has escorts hanging on here in Australia after BL / BMC products had largely disappeared.
ps My father bought a Triumph Dolomite new - not the sprint - and the only failure I recall was a broken throttle cable, so they weren't all lemons.
My (dodgy) memory has escorts hanging on here in Australia after BL / BMC products had largely disappeared.
ps My father bought a Triumph Dolomite new - not the sprint - and the only failure I recall was a broken throttle cable, so they weren't all lemons.
900T-R said:
Hmmm, let's say I wouldn't want to try and run either without the benefit of a 'comfortable' bank balance nowadays. As much as a good few Brits want to build shrines for their worship of German engineering, it's often needlessly complicated for completing its designed task and ^)(*&^%$ expensive when it goes wrong.
The Germans suffered from the same problem with their tanks in the 2nd World war. Fabulously engineered and well designed but very complicated and expensive to produce, making mass production difficult. Compare this to the technically inferior Sherman that was produced in much greater numbers and the T34 that in manufacturing terms was made to a standard that no German engineer would accept. In the end which strategy worked...
BorkFactor said:
MJK 24 said:
They're designed, engineered and manufactured in the UK.
Thats at least something! I wonder how much of the money from them actually stays in the UK though. I assume it is the same story with Land Rover? The important thing is the employment that they bring.
MGJohn said:
V8 Fettler said:
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Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
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EXACTLY. The UK's priorities have been all a'cock where class, status and white-blue collars are concerned. Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
.
At all levels, this Nation over-rewards the parasitical rather than the productive. Time and again, remuneration packages are all too frequently paid rather than actually earned or merited.
In other countries like Germany the term engineer is protected. The bloke who comes to fit your central heating cannot call himself and engineer because he isn't one. They respect their engineers and it is seen as a prestigeous profession.
In the UK we only seem to respect money.
Devil2575 said:
MGJohn said:
V8 Fettler said:
.
Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
.
EXACTLY. The UK's priorities have been all a'cock where class, status and white-blue collars are concerned. Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
.
At all levels, this Nation over-rewards the parasitical rather than the productive. Time and again, remuneration packages are all too frequently paid rather than actually earned or merited.
In other countries like Germany the term engineer is protected. The bloke who comes to fit your central heating cannot call himself and engineer because he isn't one. They respect their engineers and it is seen as a prestigeous profession.
In the UK we only seem to respect money.
t. Whenever 'managing' the creation of value gets rewarded completely out of proportion with the actual creation of value in countries where higher education is widely accessible (and dare I say, manageable even for the averagely talented and not very passionate) you can't really be surprised that corporate (and governmental) organisations have evolved towards the way they are now, with few people who know what to do overseen by many who only know what they think someone else should do. The result is a largely parasitic class dreaming up ever more regulations and 'new directions' for the workfloor, and not enough money being made to sustain it all.
Living in Birmingham, my school sent me to do work experience in longbridge when I was a teenager in the mid 90s. I dont know where that film was made but it looked very similar to the plant/track I visited. Dark and gloomy as opposed to all those clinical places you see on the tv nowadays.
I remember when one of the guys who was supervising us school kids set up a machine incorrectly and he got a right bking for it. Turns out that said machine dented 300 car doors. I asked him, "what will happen to you?"
His reply, "nothing, just management making a song and dance about nothing as usual."
As a a kid and not knowing anything about business/manufacturing (I think I was 15 ) even I sensed there was something wrong when you heard statements like that, and the place just seemed to be in a general malaise.
When the plant eventually closed I was sad but unsurprised. Just how could you motivate the workforce. My mum works in cadburys in bournville and tells me similar tales all the time. I just think of all the well paid jobs that disappeared, and the effect on our balance of payments/exports e.t.c.
I remember when one of the guys who was supervising us school kids set up a machine incorrectly and he got a right b
king for it. Turns out that said machine dented 300 car doors. I asked him, "what will happen to you?" His reply, "nothing, just management making a song and dance about nothing as usual."
As a a kid and not knowing anything about business/manufacturing (I think I was 15 ) even I sensed there was something wrong when you heard statements like that, and the place just seemed to be in a general malaise.
When the plant eventually closed I was sad but unsurprised. Just how could you motivate the workforce. My mum works in cadburys in bournville and tells me similar tales all the time. I just think of all the well paid jobs that disappeared, and the effect on our balance of payments/exports e.t.c.
MGJohn said:
So those vast numbers of Brits with the Yonex "mindset", I shall be extremely delighted to be proven wrong by you all. I really would but the only thing I really fear is that it will never happen.
True to form chips on both shoulders, balanced 
The difference is instead of moaning all the time about how s
t the country is I actually quite like it, save for the old farts who think it was better in the good old days when it took five people and three tea breaks to fix a lightbulb.Devil2575 said:
I'd agree with this.
In other countries like Germany the term engineer is protected. The bloke who comes to fit your central heating cannot call himself and engineer because he isn't one. They respect their engineers and it is seen as a prestigeous profession.
In the UK we only seem to respect money.
And yet the Mini was an innovative piece of engineering, sold all over the world, that reputedly made a loss on every one sold.In other countries like Germany the term engineer is protected. The bloke who comes to fit your central heating cannot call himself and engineer because he isn't one. They respect their engineers and it is seen as a prestigeous profession.
In the UK we only seem to respect money.
Engineering wasn't BL's failing, design was the one thing they got right. It was poor quality control even by the standards of the time that was the main problem.
fatboy69 said:
BL 'quality control' was a joke.
Including one Austin Princess that was delivered, fully built, unpainted......
It got through all of the so called quality control processes in its bare primer wit not a drop of paint applied to the shell of the car.
A minor fault that could happen to anyone! It's nitpicking like this that did for BL. Including one Austin Princess that was delivered, fully built, unpainted......
It got through all of the so called quality control processes in its bare primer wit not a drop of paint applied to the shell of the car.
There's the famous story of the new Marina that pulled violently to one side under braking. The customer brought it back, and the dealership soon found the fault, the front brakes had 1 disc and 1 drum.
How could you motivate the workforce?
Interesting question that and subject matter for a great many books and studies.
Perhaps when respect for the company, respect for the customer and personal values sail out the door, that's when it's time to close... and that applies at all levels of the organisation from the board down to the chap polishing the toilet taps.
It's interesting watching the Pathe movies from the late 50's and 60's - there was much talk of progress and improvements but within ten years something profoud happened to the UK that beached all of that for a decade and more.
Perhaps BL's demise is no more than it deserved. Perhaps though, its passing came at a time when people were so sick of the grim misery of the 70s and early 80s that when something shiny was offered, they grabbed at it. Cars, being the most visible manifestation of wealth, were the first to see that change in mindset. The Germans and the Japanese offered us choice and quality. Brand loyalty is not an infinite slinky and it only takes one critical morning of not starting to put you off a brand for life. BL had more than its fair share of the market back when here was limitted choice. As soon as we had choice we jumped. Now, who is that down to? us, the consumer, or the company?
Interesting question that and subject matter for a great many books and studies.
Perhaps when respect for the company, respect for the customer and personal values sail out the door, that's when it's time to close... and that applies at all levels of the organisation from the board down to the chap polishing the toilet taps.
It's interesting watching the Pathe movies from the late 50's and 60's - there was much talk of progress and improvements but within ten years something profoud happened to the UK that beached all of that for a decade and more.
Perhaps BL's demise is no more than it deserved. Perhaps though, its passing came at a time when people were so sick of the grim misery of the 70s and early 80s that when something shiny was offered, they grabbed at it. Cars, being the most visible manifestation of wealth, were the first to see that change in mindset. The Germans and the Japanese offered us choice and quality. Brand loyalty is not an infinite slinky and it only takes one critical morning of not starting to put you off a brand for life. BL had more than its fair share of the market back when here was limitted choice. As soon as we had choice we jumped. Now, who is that down to? us, the consumer, or the company?
Ah well, the late Robert Sinclair who headed Volvo Cars USA through most of the 1970s once was called out of the office when a shipload of new Volvos had arrived in the docks - 'You have to see this to believe it!' They had found one of the brand new Volvo 142/144 cars they had just offloaded was in fact a 143 - the body was a four-door saloon on one side and a two door saloon on the other.
On the other had, when Hyundai had a similar thing a year or two ago they decided to market it as a new model.
On the other had, when Hyundai had a similar thing a year or two ago they decided to market it as a new model.
Devil2575 said:
The Germans suffered from the same problem with their tanks in the 2nd World war. Fabulously engineered and well designed but very complicated and expensive to produce, making mass production difficult.
Compare this to the technically inferior Sherman that was produced in much greater numbers and the T34 that in manufacturing terms was made to a standard that no German engineer would accept. In the end which strategy worked...
Lets not just look at one aspect. Lets even the playing field.Compare this to the technically inferior Sherman that was produced in much greater numbers and the T34 that in manufacturing terms was made to a standard that no German engineer would accept. In the end which strategy worked...
Imagine Germany had the manufacturing capability and the raw material resources of your quoted countries, still think the result would be the same?
Chainguy said:
Devil2575 said:
The Germans suffered from the same problem with their tanks in the 2nd World war. Fabulously engineered and well designed but very complicated and expensive to produce, making mass production difficult.
Compare this to the technically inferior Sherman that was produced in much greater numbers and the T34 that in manufacturing terms was made to a standard that no German engineer would accept. In the end which strategy worked...
Lets not just look at one aspect. Lets even the playing field.Compare this to the technically inferior Sherman that was produced in much greater numbers and the T34 that in manufacturing terms was made to a standard that no German engineer would accept. In the end which strategy worked...
Imagine Germany had the manufacturing capability and the raw material resources of your quoted countries, still think the result would be the same?
However look at the whole picture. Despite having a lower manufacturing capability and less resources they still opted for expensive to produce and difficult to manufacture vehicles. A quality over quantity approach. Both the US and the USSR went for a quantity over quality and it paid off.
The fact is a level playing field is almost always a hypothetical situation, in reality you have to play the hand you are dealt.
What is also interesting about the T34 is that while the quality of the finishing is poor, e.g. rough welds etc, in terms of an effective vehicle it had many superior qualities such as off road performance, sloping armour and a more powerful gun than it's German counterparts (at least at the timne of it's introduction in 1941).
There was nothing wrong with the engineering design of BL cars, infact, many of them were brilliant. Unfortunately, the complete useless management flatly refused to invest in decent production lines, and the rot set in. Car assembly workers saw this, as well as being treated as slave labour. So the rot set in. Loud mouth commie type bullies got into power in the unions, and we all know the rest. JCB saw all this, and invested well, treated their workers as human beings. When the unions arrived to unionise the factory, JCB let them loose. They came back with their tails between their legs when the workers told them to fk off.
k off.Twincam16 said:
PH lurker said:
Is this acted by actors, not BL workers? If so could that be 'Denzil' from Only Fools and Horses part way through?
I'm pretty sure one of those designers was a young(ish) David Suchet.Someone I know used to work as a spot welder on the Marina line in Cowley.
He was 1 of 8 people on a shift. Each was responsible for a set number of welds in specific places on each car.
They quickly worked out that 1 of them could, for a short time, run up and down their section of line, doing the work of all 8. It was taxing and tiring, but it was possible. So they came up with a scheme where they would work on a rota basis. One would bust their backsides for an hour, then hand over to the next, and so on. At the end of a shift, each had worked like crazy for one hour. and spent the other seven either asleep, or on the many personal manufacturing industries that fluorished at the time, of course run with company tools, materials and time.
The supervisor's attitude was that as long as the line was running and their bit of it wasn't holding anything up, it was none of his business.
He was 1 of 8 people on a shift. Each was responsible for a set number of welds in specific places on each car.
They quickly worked out that 1 of them could, for a short time, run up and down their section of line, doing the work of all 8. It was taxing and tiring, but it was possible. So they came up with a scheme where they would work on a rota basis. One would bust their backsides for an hour, then hand over to the next, and so on. At the end of a shift, each had worked like crazy for one hour. and spent the other seven either asleep, or on the many personal manufacturing industries that fluorished at the time, of course run with company tools, materials and time.
The supervisor's attitude was that as long as the line was running and their bit of it wasn't holding anything up, it was none of his business.
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