RE: Preuninger: Porsche is not a hedge fund
Discussion
PorscheGTS said:
Preuninger is not telling the whole story. Yes, Porsche could produce more cars, but the real issue is that they have created a two-tiered customer base that allows those who purchased the 918 Spyder to have first shot at acquiring all other special editions including the 911R. This has created the "hedge" market by allowing a few privileged customers access to all new special editions and excluding long time Porsche devotees the who would actually drive these new special editions. Shame on them! They are alienating the majority of their customer base to play to their wealthier clients. Even though current Porsche prices make them unaffordable to most, I highly doubt this "exclusive club" within a club was the intent of Dr. Porsche when created the company.
Maybe Porsche see it as a reward to those customers who have helped them in the past and who may well be required in the future in leaner times. As others have said, just looking after their best customers. This ideal obviously breaks down when allocations are made based upon 'other' criteria, and people are quite rightly going to get annoyed by this.The 911R has allowed Porsche to confirm the viability of a new model. They can go ahead and build 500 911T models without diluting the UK GT3 market too much. This should go some way to ensuring that more people get an allocation.
isaldiri said:
Mario149 said:
Shorter gearing, more road biased suspension, ride height (although I did have my GT3 raised about 6mm), comfier seats (mine had the Carrera GT buckets) etc.
The 991R has gearing that does maybe 10-12mph less than the 7gt3 depending on gear, it's not that much shorter? Ride height the R is I think the same as the 991gt3 which is even lower than the 7gt3... I grant you the modern iteration of the pasm suspension is much more road friendly but tbh the 991RS (supposedly the track biased car) is remarkably good on the road so it's more a modern development than a particularly road biased one.Suspension is a tricky one agreed. I think all GT3/R suspension is broadly adjustable although I remember being told that +8mm was the max I could go without having to move away from "correct" geo settings. Would be interesting to see if the modern cars PASM fares decently better than the older stuff. I found the 7.1 GT3 a bit harsh for the roads I drove on.
To be clear, I'm not dissing the 7GT3 at all, it just didn't match up to my reqs, and equally I don't think that the 991R is necessarily god's gift. But short of modding an already expensive car to suit my taste and usage, a 991R would be the best way to go. Hence why I personally find it frustrating that they're unavailable. Add to the fact that it's vanishingle unlikely I'll be allowed to buy what is probably the next best thing from new (manual 992 GT3) and that I'm not interested in 911s with turbos, it essentially means there's zero 911 offering for me. For a company that allegedly caters for virtually every permutation of buyer, it seems a bit odd I can't walk into a Porsche dealership and find a new car I want to buy that I'm allowed to buy.
Mario149 said:
For a company that allegedly caters for virtually every permutation of buyer, it seems a bit odd I can't walk into a Porsche dealership and find a new car I want to buy that I'm allowed to buy.
Who alleges this? Where has this been expressly said? Could these allegations also be made about Mercedes Benz for example, who have a much wider range of vehicles to suit every permutation of buyer than Porsche? Why should you or anyone be allowed to buy a(ny) Porsche?sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
For a company that allegedly caters for virtually every permutation of buyer, it seems a bit odd I can't walk into a Porsche dealership and find a new car I want to buy that I'm allowed to buy.
Who alleges this? Where has this been expressly said? 2 seater sportscar - 718 - 4 versions, will be 8+ once the model cycle has finished
2(+2) seater sports/GT car - 911 - 21 versions
Family saloon - Panamera - 10 versions
Small SUV - Macan - 6 versions
Regular SUV - Cayenne - 11 versions
Porsche has deliberately positioned themselves so that they basically cover every part of the premium market.
sidesauce said:
Why should you or anyone be allowed to buy a(ny) Porsche?
Again, seriously? You don't think it's a bit odd that a car enthusiast with not unusual tastes, a history of varied Porsche ownership and other interesting cars, isn't able to walk into a Porsche dealership in the UK (note, specifically the UK) and find a car that a) they would like to order
and
b) be allowed to order?
Look, I know that this is a massive 1st world "problem", and that Porsche is a business, and a successful one at that, so one presumes that somehow this all makes sense to them. But as a potential punter, it's a bit ridiculous.
Just to clarify, it's not that I'm necessarily after a rare/expensive/bleeding edge Porsche. I'd happily take a 991.2 with something like a tuned 3.4 NA lump, a few kg weight removed, some sportier suspension, buckets and a 911R type 6 sp manual for Carrera S money.
egomeister said:
Porsche911R said:
"We are not a hedge fund," shrugs Preuninger with characteristic bluntness.
Hasn't always been that way 
https://priceonomics.com/porsche-the-hedge-fund-th...
Based on my former knowledge of the car industry, I'd wager that Porsche are limiting numbers based on average fleet sales emissions. Basically the average CO2 of the cars sold in any given year. Why else push the new turbo 911, and 4 pot caymen/boxster, and then limit the high power N/A model?
Don't get me wrong, I'd have liked a shot at both the GT4 and the 911 R, but I'll forgive them for not giving me a call, and get on with enjoying the car I already have. At the end of the day the price will go up on anything desirable enough once the volumes become limited, if that happens to be now, or in 20 years time when it's a classic is irrelevant.
Don't get me wrong, I'd have liked a shot at both the GT4 and the 911 R, but I'll forgive them for not giving me a call, and get on with enjoying the car I already have. At the end of the day the price will go up on anything desirable enough once the volumes become limited, if that happens to be now, or in 20 years time when it's a classic is irrelevant.
Mario149 said:
I know that this is a massive 1st world "problem", and that Porsche is a business, and a successful one at that, so one presumes that somehow this all makes sense to them. But as a potential punter, it's a bit ridiculous.
And this is where you and I differ in opinion - people living in the 1st world have a huge (and as far as I'm concerned, entirely unjustified) sense of entitlement in that they feel they have the right to have things they want, simply because they want them.We all know that Porsche's business model has been extremely successful and they have no obligation to anyone to make any more cars than they want to make. For you to say that it's bit ridiculous is simply childish to me. If you don't like their production policy you can either a) take your business elsewhere but in the knowledge it will not make the slightest bit of difference to their bottom line as they have many many more people queuing up to buy their products, b) pay over the odds for something you really want (there ARE 911R's on sale and the market, NOT Porsche, is dictating the price based on demand for the available supply) or c) buy an older Porsche.
They are amongst the best in the world at what they do, both when it comes to creating demand for their premium products and also when it comes to making profits. They are in the business of making money and keeping everyone happy evidently doesn't figure in their plans as they're obviously doing better than pretty much everyone else in the entire car marketplace.
Moaning about it will not change that.
Edited by sidesauce on Wednesday 15th February 23:44
sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
I know that this is a massive 1st world "problem", and that Porsche is a business, and a successful one at that, so one presumes that somehow this all makes sense to them. But as a potential punter, it's a bit ridiculous.
And this is where you and I differ in opinion - people living in the 1st world have a huge (and as far as I'm concerned, entirely unjustified) sense of entitlement in that they feel they have the right to have things they want, simply because they want them.We all know that Porsche's business model has been extremely successful and they have no obligation to anyone to make any more cars than they want to make. For you to say that it's bit ridiculous is simply childish to me. If you don't like their production policy you can either a) take your business elsewhere but in the knowledge it will not make the slightest bit of difference to their bottom line as they have many many more people queuing up to buy their products, b) pay over the odds for something you really want (there ARE 911R's on sale and the market, NOT Porsche, is dictating the price based on demand for the available supply) or c) buy an older Porsche.
They are amongst the best in the world at what they do, both when it comes to creating demand for their premium products and also when it comes to making profits. They are in the business of making money and keeping everyone happy evidently doesn't figure in their plans as they're obviously doing better than pretty much everyone else in the entire car marketplace.
Moaning about it will not change that.
Edited by sidesauce on Wednesday 15th February 23:44
Ironically, I'm not even sure it's Porsche doing it deliberately. Given that this issue affects such a few number of people in the grand scheme of things, it's probably something that's just too low on their agenda to even look at. Or maybe it's a branding/desirability thing. But that doesn't stack up to me as none of this is even on the average Porsche buyers radar. I'm yet to be convinced that not selling an enthusiast a GT3 somehow leads to more Cayenne sales. And I expect that there are vanishingly few people who think "well, I can't have a 911R/GT3/GTRS so I'll just plump for a Carrera S instead". I guess at the end of the day it'd just be nice to know why frankly, we're all adults (despite your accusation of childishness) - if Porsche turned round and said "you know what, we just didn't anticipate the post recession demand and don't have capacity" or "we're re-positioning our brand and want to keep our halo and track models exclusive" a la Ferrari, I'd personally be fine with it.
Instead we have this sham whereby they sell some cars, but they don't really sell them which is bizarre. If you can manage to sell a tarted up 997 Carrera branded as "Classic" for double the money or more, then there's nothing stopping you from jacking up the price of GT3s/RSs/Rs by 50%, you'd still sell all you could make in the UK.....although maybe not in Europe/US. Which brings me back round to what I said earlier, I'm not convinced this is even deliberate, Porsche aren't infallible. Maybe they've set the price level and capacity, but can't (or can't be bothered) to adjust it for the UK.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I can't see them ramping up prices by 50% either to be fair as they'd have to broadly mirror it on the continent where demand doesn't seem as high, but I still reckon they hypothetically could and still sell just as many in the UK. There's got to be at least twice as many potential buyers as allocations, and at the £125k+ price point, I'm pretty sure the demand is inelastic enough to handle it, especially as people are now getting used to the concept of things getting more expensive due to the tanked GBP/EUR exchange rate. And anecdotally, it seems the people that are getting offered these cars are the ones that order a new Porsche every year or so, so an extra few £10ks on an asset that isn't likely to depreciate doesn't seem a major problem!Mario149 said:
sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
I know that this is a massive 1st world "problem", and that Porsche is a business, and a successful one at that, so one presumes that somehow this all makes sense to them. But as a potential punter, it's a bit ridiculous.
And this is where you and I differ in opinion - people living in the 1st world have a huge (and as far as I'm concerned, entirely unjustified) sense of entitlement in that they feel they have the right to have things they want, simply because they want them.We all know that Porsche's business model has been extremely successful and they have no obligation to anyone to make any more cars than they want to make. For you to say that it's bit ridiculous is simply childish to me. If you don't like their production policy you can either a) take your business elsewhere but in the knowledge it will not make the slightest bit of difference to their bottom line as they have many many more people queuing up to buy their products, b) pay over the odds for something you really want (there ARE 911R's on sale and the market, NOT Porsche, is dictating the price based on demand for the available supply) or c) buy an older Porsche.
They are amongst the best in the world at what they do, both when it comes to creating demand for their premium products and also when it comes to making profits. They are in the business of making money and keeping everyone happy evidently doesn't figure in their plans as they're obviously doing better than pretty much everyone else in the entire car marketplace.
Moaning about it will not change that.
Edited by sidesauce on Wednesday 15th February 23:44
Ironically, I'm not even sure it's Porsche doing it deliberately. Given that this issue affects such a few number of people in the grand scheme of things, it's probably something that's just too low on their agenda to even look at. Or maybe it's a branding/desirability thing. But that doesn't stack up to me as none of this is even on the average Porsche buyers radar. I'm yet to be convinced that not selling an enthusiast a GT3 somehow leads to more Cayenne sales. And I expect that there are vanishingly few people who think "well, I can't have a 911R/GT3/GTRS so I'll just plump for a Carrera S instead". I guess at the end of the day it'd just be nice to know why frankly, we're all adults (despite your accusation of childishness) - if Porsche turned round and said "you know what, we just didn't anticipate the post recession demand and don't have capacity" or "we're re-positioning our brand and want to keep our halo and track models exclusive" a la Ferrari, I'd personally be fine with it.
Instead we have this sham whereby they sell some cars, but they don't really sell them which is bizarre. If you can manage to sell a tarted up 997 Carrera branded as "Classic" for double the money or more, then there's nothing stopping you from jacking up the price of GT3s/RSs/Rs by 50%, you'd still sell all you could make in the UK.....although maybe not in Europe/US. Which brings me back round to what I said earlier, I'm not convinced this is even deliberate, Porsche aren't infallible. Maybe they've set the price level and capacity, but can't (or can't be bothered) to adjust it for the UK.
Porsche "appears to know what they're doing"? Given what we know of their financial success, there's no "appears" about it; they damned well know what they're doing and have done for a long, long time.
Sense of entitlement doesn't just apply to people wanting freebies. A company like Porsche is under no obligation to sell any more cars to punters than it wishes to make. They have no legal obligation neither do they have any moral obligation whatsoever. Furthermore, they have no obligation to tell you as a punter, or anyone else for that matter, their reasons why - this is what I mean about peoples sense of entitlement. You're not owed that from them, at all - anyone that thinks so is being childish and I continue to stand by my statement in that regard.
Sham? What sham? This car was known to a limited production model; the 991 cars were made, they were sold and some are now available secondhand (with the remaining warranties etc), like I said before if you want one you can in fact buy one at the price dictated by the market.
sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
I know that this is a massive 1st world "problem", and that Porsche is a business, and a successful one at that, so one presumes that somehow this all makes sense to them. But as a potential punter, it's a bit ridiculous.
And this is where you and I differ in opinion - people living in the 1st world have a huge (and as far as I'm concerned, entirely unjustified) sense of entitlement in that they feel they have the right to have things they want, simply because they want them.We all know that Porsche's business model has been extremely successful and they have no obligation to anyone to make any more cars than they want to make. For you to say that it's bit ridiculous is simply childish to me. If you don't like their production policy you can either a) take your business elsewhere but in the knowledge it will not make the slightest bit of difference to their bottom line as they have many many more people queuing up to buy their products, b) pay over the odds for something you really want (there ARE 911R's on sale and the market, NOT Porsche, is dictating the price based on demand for the available supply) or c) buy an older Porsche.
They are amongst the best in the world at what they do, both when it comes to creating demand for their premium products and also when it comes to making profits. They are in the business of making money and keeping everyone happy evidently doesn't figure in their plans as they're obviously doing better than pretty much everyone else in the entire car marketplace.
Moaning about it will not change that.
Edited by sidesauce on Wednesday 15th February 23:44
Ironically, I'm not even sure it's Porsche doing it deliberately. Given that this issue affects such a few number of people in the grand scheme of things, it's probably something that's just too low on their agenda to even look at. Or maybe it's a branding/desirability thing. But that doesn't stack up to me as none of this is even on the average Porsche buyers radar. I'm yet to be convinced that not selling an enthusiast a GT3 somehow leads to more Cayenne sales. And I expect that there are vanishingly few people who think "well, I can't have a 911R/GT3/GTRS so I'll just plump for a Carrera S instead". I guess at the end of the day it'd just be nice to know why frankly, we're all adults (despite your accusation of childishness) - if Porsche turned round and said "you know what, we just didn't anticipate the post recession demand and don't have capacity" or "we're re-positioning our brand and want to keep our halo and track models exclusive" a la Ferrari, I'd personally be fine with it.
Instead we have this sham whereby they sell some cars, but they don't really sell them which is bizarre. If you can manage to sell a tarted up 997 Carrera branded as "Classic" for double the money or more, then there's nothing stopping you from jacking up the price of GT3s/RSs/Rs by 50%, you'd still sell all you could make in the UK.....although maybe not in Europe/US. Which brings me back round to what I said earlier, I'm not convinced this is even deliberate, Porsche aren't infallible. Maybe they've set the price level and capacity, but can't (or can't be bothered) to adjust it for the UK.
Porsche "appears to know what they're doing"? Given what we know of their financial success, there's no "appears" about it; they damned well know what they're doing and have done for a long, long time.
Sense of entitlement doesn't just apply to people wanting freebies. A company like Porsche is under no obligation to sell any more cars to punters than it wishes to make. They have no legal obligation neither do they have any moral obligation whatsoever. Furthermore, they have no obligation to tell you as a punter, or anyone else for that matter, their reasons why - this is what I mean about peoples sense of entitlement. You're not owed that from them, at all - anyone that thinks so is being childish and I continue to stand by my statement in that regard.
Sham? What sham? This car was known to a limited production model; the 991 cars were made, they were sold and some are now available secondhand (with the remaining warranties etc), like I said before if you want one you can in fact buy one at the price dictated by the market.
Are they under an obligation to sell us anything? Of course not. But if you're a company that does the bare minimum by your customers, or doesn't listen to their feedback, or ignores it, or even worse say you've listened and then give a vocal proportion of your customers the metaphorical finger, it's not particularly controversial to suggest that that is a bad idea. Especially when the ones you're ignoring are probably your most vocal supporters when you do good. You only have to visit the Cayman GTS thread here for an example of how customers support you when you get it right.
It was a sham, especially from a company that largely sells itself on making great drivers cars and manages to make models of cars that are still great to drive given their class when arguably they don't need to. There's no earthly reason for the average Cayenne punter why a Cayenne needs to go round corners so much better than a Disco to Rangie but they made it that way deliberately. So add to that the interviews AP did where, from memory, he came out touting the 911R as a true driver's car, they'd listened to what people wanted and were delivering etc etc. And then only proceeded to sell it to a tiny fraction of Porsche customers at a price that appears to be designed to deliberately shove it in the face of other people who'd like to buy it and could, and we're not talking millionaire entitled Trump-a-likes here.
In that sense the Sport Classic was more honest: if you're going to take the piss, do it properly. Give the standard model a coat of primer, change the roof and the wheels, charge double+ for it and make it a reeeally limited run. But back to the 996R let's be clear, this wasn't some bleeding edge bespoke motorcar with virtually zero common parts like the Carrera GT (which they made what, nearly 1200 of?). The only major individual "new" parts specific for the 911R I can think of off hand are the gearbox, LWFW and the rear spoiler which popped up a bit more than usual.
What you call sense of entitlement, I and many others call constructively criticising a company/brand that Porsche owners generally love for appearing to take the piss out of a core group of supporters by accident or by design. So I go back to a point I made earlier that you also made: they're completely entitled to do it, they're completely entitled to not say anything on the subject, they're completely entitled to carry on as they see fit. I'm just not so sure it's such a great idea. And as you or someone else here said, people will take their money elsewhere. I can't be the only serial Porsche owner who has chatted to an OPC and said that the only way they'd get my business for a new model is by selling me a NA one now. So let's end on a positive note and hope the 911T makes an appearance and in sensible numbers
Like I said, 1st world issue, but since that's where Porsche operates, a relevant one.
Edited for speelung
Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 21st February 10:14
I want(ed) a 911R because I want(ed) a 911R. I think it is the perfect Porsche. Had I been able to purchase one I would have used it exactly like my current car. Not as a DD but as a fun weekend toy in the local mountains and for C&C, AX and track days. Exactly like it was intended.
With rumors of a GT4RS running rampant I have repeatedly spoken with my SA and he has repeatedly assured me that I will be able to get an allocation IF this car is produced. He has also "warned" me that IF the GT4RS is produced they will most likely sell for over MSRP and that any miles I put on it will really kill re-sale. Don't care. IF it is produced and IF it is not too much over MSRP I will get one and use it as intended and enjoy it.
With rumors of a GT4RS running rampant I have repeatedly spoken with my SA and he has repeatedly assured me that I will be able to get an allocation IF this car is produced. He has also "warned" me that IF the GT4RS is produced they will most likely sell for over MSRP and that any miles I put on it will really kill re-sale. Don't care. IF it is produced and IF it is not too much over MSRP I will get one and use it as intended and enjoy it.
rkwfxd said:
I have repeatedly spoken with my SA and he has repeatedly assured me that I will be able to get an allocation IF this car is produced.
Don't post that quote in the Porsche forum mate you will get scoffed at The GT4 threads in the Porsche forum here have been a river of sorrow at times. Some of the posters threatened legal action at the time, I don't know if they did.
Posted for humour:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/pensioner-get...
Edited by Carl_Manchester on Wednesday 22 February 19:36
Mario149 said:
sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
sidesauce said:
Mario149 said:
I know that this is a massive 1st world "problem", and that Porsche is a business, and a successful one at that, so one presumes that somehow this all makes sense to them. But as a potential punter, it's a bit ridiculous.
And this is where you and I differ in opinion - people living in the 1st world have a huge (and as far as I'm concerned, entirely unjustified) sense of entitlement in that they feel they have the right to have things they want, simply because they want them.We all know that Porsche's business model has been extremely successful and they have no obligation to anyone to make any more cars than they want to make. For you to say that it's bit ridiculous is simply childish to me. If you don't like their production policy you can either a) take your business elsewhere but in the knowledge it will not make the slightest bit of difference to their bottom line as they have many many more people queuing up to buy their products, b) pay over the odds for something you really want (there ARE 911R's on sale and the market, NOT Porsche, is dictating the price based on demand for the available supply) or c) buy an older Porsche.
They are amongst the best in the world at what they do, both when it comes to creating demand for their premium products and also when it comes to making profits. They are in the business of making money and keeping everyone happy evidently doesn't figure in their plans as they're obviously doing better than pretty much everyone else in the entire car marketplace.
Moaning about it will not change that.
Edited by sidesauce on Wednesday 15th February 23:44
Ironically, I'm not even sure it's Porsche doing it deliberately. Given that this issue affects such a few number of people in the grand scheme of things, it's probably something that's just too low on their agenda to even look at. Or maybe it's a branding/desirability thing. But that doesn't stack up to me as none of this is even on the average Porsche buyers radar. I'm yet to be convinced that not selling an enthusiast a GT3 somehow leads to more Cayenne sales. And I expect that there are vanishingly few people who think "well, I can't have a 911R/GT3/GTRS so I'll just plump for a Carrera S instead". I guess at the end of the day it'd just be nice to know why frankly, we're all adults (despite your accusation of childishness) - if Porsche turned round and said "you know what, we just didn't anticipate the post recession demand and don't have capacity" or "we're re-positioning our brand and want to keep our halo and track models exclusive" a la Ferrari, I'd personally be fine with it.
Instead we have this sham whereby they sell some cars, but they don't really sell them which is bizarre. If you can manage to sell a tarted up 997 Carrera branded as "Classic" for double the money or more, then there's nothing stopping you from jacking up the price of GT3s/RSs/Rs by 50%, you'd still sell all you could make in the UK.....although maybe not in Europe/US. Which brings me back round to what I said earlier, I'm not convinced this is even deliberate, Porsche aren't infallible. Maybe they've set the price level and capacity, but can't (or can't be bothered) to adjust it for the UK.
Porsche "appears to know what they're doing"? Given what we know of their financial success, there's no "appears" about it; they damned well know what they're doing and have done for a long, long time.
Sense of entitlement doesn't just apply to people wanting freebies. A company like Porsche is under no obligation to sell any more cars to punters than it wishes to make. They have no legal obligation neither do they have any moral obligation whatsoever. Furthermore, they have no obligation to tell you as a punter, or anyone else for that matter, their reasons why - this is what I mean about peoples sense of entitlement. You're not owed that from them, at all - anyone that thinks so is being childish and I continue to stand by my statement in that regard.
Sham? What sham? This car was known to a limited production model; the 991 cars were made, they were sold and some are now available secondhand (with the remaining warranties etc), like I said before if you want one you can in fact buy one at the price dictated by the market.
Are they under an obligation to sell us anything? Of course not. But if you're a company that does the bare minimum by your customers, or doesn't listen to their feedback, or ignores it, or even worse say you've listened and then give a vocal proportion of your customers the metaphorical finger, it's not particularly controversial to suggest that that is a bad idea. Especially when the ones you're ignoring are probably your most vocal supporters when you do good. You only have to visit the Cayman GTS thread here for an example of how customers support you when you get it right.
It was a sham, especially from a company that largely sells itself on making great drivers cars and manages to make models of cars that are still great to drive given their class when arguably they don't need to. There's no earthly reason for the average Cayenne punter why a Cayenne needs to go round corners so much better than a Disco to Rangie but they made it that way deliberately. So add to that the interviews AP did where, from memory, he came out touting the 911R as a true driver's car, they'd listened to what people wanted and were delivering etc etc. And then only proceeded to sell it to a tiny fraction of Porsche customers at a price that appears to be designed to deliberately shove it in the face of other people who'd like to buy it and could, and we're not talking millionaire entitled Trump-a-likes here.
In that sense the Sport Classic was more honest: if you're going to take the piss, do it properly. Give the standard model a coat of primer, change the roof and the wheels, charge double+ for it and make it a reeeally limited run. But back to the 996R let's be clear, this wasn't some bleeding edge bespoke motorcar with virtually zero common parts like the Carrera GT (which they made what, nearly 1200 of?). The only major individual "new" parts specific for the 911R I can think of off hand are the gearbox, LWFW and the rear spoiler which popped up a bit more than usual.
What you call sense of entitlement, I and many others call constructively criticising a company/brand that Porsche owners generally love for appearing to take the piss out of a core group of supporters by accident or by design. So I go back to a point I made earlier that you also made: they're completely entitled to do it, they're completely entitled to not say anything on the subject, they're completely entitled to carry on as they see fit. I'm just not so sure it's such a great idea. And as you or someone else here said, people will take their money elsewhere. I can't be the only serial Porsche owner who has chatted to an OPC and said that the only way they'd get my business for a new model is by selling me a NA one now. So let's end on a positive note and hope the 911T makes an appearance and in sensible numbers
Like I said, 1st world issue, but since that's where Porsche operates, a relevant one.
Edited for speelung
Yes, Porsche can do what they like and choose to sell/make as much or as little as they like of any particular product as the people who are pissed off with them do not make up the majority of their customer base. They're not doing the 'bare minimum' by their customers at all. They are limiting production of a few models of a car that isn't the most popular nor would it ever be given its function and potential market size. If a few pissed off people want to take their money elsewhere, that's fine - I don't think they'll be losing any sleep from the year-on-year profit increases they've consistently been having since the introduction of the Cayenne.
You assert that enthusiasts on forums praise Porsche for the Cayman GTS while conveniently ignoring the fact that Porsches main revenue now comes from SUVs and large saloons. They are not the company they once were, their focus has shifted to the mass market, NOT specialist sports cars. Even if the 996 and 986 saved them, so what? That was then, this is now. I don't believe in luck when it comes to sustained success and in particular, profit per unit sold; it's a known fact that Porsche is among the most profitable manufacturers in the world, mass market or otherwise, and has been for many years despite their once precarious financial position (a position that was changed more by the Cayenne and Macan than any 911 or Boxster).
Also, to blame Preuninger for the current situation is completely disingenuous as, like I said before, he is an engineer, not a sales/marketing/production bod so to bring his name into it is actually pointless - it's like blaming James Murray, the deputy Mayor of housing for London, for Sadiq Khan's decision on introducing the T-charge; they're on the same team but that guy doesn't have any control over London's Transport policy!
And finally, I agree with you - this issue of over-demand and lack of supply regarding this particular model IS a first world issue but not one that Porsche has any problem with, neither does the vast majority of their customer base.
"Andreas Preuninger has little sympathy. "We are not a hedge fund"
This says it all, the fact he would even utter these words shows a large disconnect between their aspirations and the business of selling cars
However the paradox here is who is currently doing a better job of selling cars than Porsche??
This says it all, the fact he would even utter these words shows a large disconnect between their aspirations and the business of selling cars
However the paradox here is who is currently doing a better job of selling cars than Porsche??
sidesauce said:
We'll have to agree to disagree - I see no 'constructive' criticism on here, I just see whining and moaning.
Yes, Porsche can do what they like and choose to sell/make as much or as little as they like of any particular product as the people who are pissed off with them do not make up the majority of their customer base. They're not doing the 'bare minimum' by their customers at all. They are limiting production of a few models of a car that isn't the most popular nor would it ever be given its function and potential market size.
Except one of their lead spokesmen then goes on record to say that they are not happy with the obvious corollary of that limitation. As you say, if the limitation was NOT there, the production numbers would probably not change much.Yes, Porsche can do what they like and choose to sell/make as much or as little as they like of any particular product as the people who are pissed off with them do not make up the majority of their customer base. They're not doing the 'bare minimum' by their customers at all. They are limiting production of a few models of a car that isn't the most popular nor would it ever be given its function and potential market size.
People who buy 911Rs are probably not buying them because they want a 911R, but because they want an investment that looks pretty. Take that investment return away, those build slots will be available to those who WANT a 911R... Which may, actually, be fewer people than want them as a pretty investment...
sidesauce said:
And finally, I agree with you - this issue of over-demand and lack of supply regarding this particular model IS a first world issue but not one that Porsche has any problem with, neither does the vast majority of their customer base.
And yet the man from Porsche says "he" DOES have a problem with it... Just not, apparently, enough of a problem to do anything about.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Again, AP is NOT in charge of production numbers of any car he and his team oversee and develop; he doesn't have a seat on the Porsche board therefore it matters not how outspoken he is, other people have the final say. What is so hard for people to understand about this?
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