Cycling two abreast....agree or not?
Discussion
DoubleD said:
kambites said:
cerb4.5lee said:
When I used to ride on the roads(well over 20 years ago now) I would ride two abreast if it was quiet, but when I heard the traffic I'd drop back into single file.
Now you see I'd consider that to be really inconsiderate because I find it easier to pass cyclists who are riding two abreast than who are single-file. Unless you dropped back several car lengths each time you were going to be overtaken to make space for a car to slot into the gap between you and the bike in front. If the road is narrower but still passable safely, its bonkers to suggest that riding two abreast is sensible as you are reducing the room for any overtake,
It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
However, on a two lane road with noting coming in the opposite lane, its not a problem.
Honestly, I don't know why some people continuously ignore inconsiderate facts when they are actually important.
kambites said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I guess that it boils down to a personal preference. I've always preferred overtaking cyclists in single file. Whereas two abreast I find more difficult and more annoying. With two abreast you have to go all the way across to the other side of the road, with single file you can just nip past quickly without having to go onto the other side of the road.
I generally go all the way to the other side of the road even when passing them in single file, which I suppose is why I prefer two-abreast. If the space is there to create a safety buffer, why not use it? Tommo87 said:
If the road is narrower but still passable safely, its bonkers to suggest that riding two abreast is sensible as you are reducing the room for any overtake,
It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
Yes but how many roads are like that? There's a few, certainly, but the vast majority are not, IME. I'd say 90%+ of the time if I come up behind a pair of cyclists, I'd prefer them to be two abreast. It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
What you need to do is maybe think of cyclists not as one group that all have the same thoughts and values, maybe its just people who use bicycles occasionally. And try and have the brains to not take out any frustration that group of ignorant roadies you encountered last week on some other cyclist, that's just weird.
Those who say they hate cyclists, really ? you actually hate every single human who throws their leg over a bike and rides it ?
I see folk I know on Facebook posting the same old meme of a hand drawn picture of a group of cyclists holding up some motorists, same chap drives a selection of very old cars, including one that has 19 bhp and struggles up hills, causing a bigger tailback than cyclists ever do. Others I know have moaned about cyclists yet have a horsebox .Irony is, a few of the key moaners have taken up cycling....
Try and think when sat in a tailback of cars, which happens on most journeys, why is it a 10 minute delay is met as a minor annoyance and accepted yet the very second you get behind a group of cyclists your blood pressure goes sky high ?
I went out the last two weekends and went past local beauty spots, Alderley Edge for example, the car parking was disgraceful, cars parked blocking the pavement, stuck into the road, churning up grass verges, utter clusterf
k at the car park as people battled to get in or out. At least most of those cars have more than one person in, unlike the rest of the time, 150 square feet of road space taken up by one person that takes up maybe a couple of feet (more at the moment obviously) but cyclists are the problem. Appreciate can use a bike for every journey but you can for some. And, all these absolutely massive SUV's, then you cant get past a bike, two foot wide bike is the problem, not the hulking great behemoth you drive ?
Every town and city center is rammed with cars but cyclists are the problem and need eradicating from the roads apparently ? For so many, the thought of not using a car for absolutely everything is like the NRA reaction when anyone suggests the under 12s shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed Howitzer.
Anyway, may as well stop moaning, its not like cycling is going anywhere, millions more bikes have been sold since Covid and the government are actively sponsoring it, all the argument really is, some groups of club riders need to be a little bit more considerate and some motorists need to chill and stop the bottom lip going at the merest sight of Lycra.
And anyway, everyone is a cyclist, you have a right, enshrined in law to ride a bicycle on the road, maybe give it a try so you have another option, funny seeing my neighbour drive his car less than a quarter of a mile to get a paper, something wrong on a nice day if you do that, like my dads morbidly obese next door neighbour who drives an even shorter distance to get his Chinese takeaway.
I love cars but fk me, we need to change our relationship with them ad how they are used, a few cyclists riding two abreast is pretty low down the list.
Those who say they hate cyclists, really ? you actually hate every single human who throws their leg over a bike and rides it ?
I see folk I know on Facebook posting the same old meme of a hand drawn picture of a group of cyclists holding up some motorists, same chap drives a selection of very old cars, including one that has 19 bhp and struggles up hills, causing a bigger tailback than cyclists ever do. Others I know have moaned about cyclists yet have a horsebox .Irony is, a few of the key moaners have taken up cycling....
Try and think when sat in a tailback of cars, which happens on most journeys, why is it a 10 minute delay is met as a minor annoyance and accepted yet the very second you get behind a group of cyclists your blood pressure goes sky high ?
I went out the last two weekends and went past local beauty spots, Alderley Edge for example, the car parking was disgraceful, cars parked blocking the pavement, stuck into the road, churning up grass verges, utter clusterf
k at the car park as people battled to get in or out. At least most of those cars have more than one person in, unlike the rest of the time, 150 square feet of road space taken up by one person that takes up maybe a couple of feet (more at the moment obviously) but cyclists are the problem. Appreciate can use a bike for every journey but you can for some. And, all these absolutely massive SUV's, then you cant get past a bike, two foot wide bike is the problem, not the hulking great behemoth you drive ?Every town and city center is rammed with cars but cyclists are the problem and need eradicating from the roads apparently ? For so many, the thought of not using a car for absolutely everything is like the NRA reaction when anyone suggests the under 12s shouldn't be allowed to carry a concealed Howitzer.
Anyway, may as well stop moaning, its not like cycling is going anywhere, millions more bikes have been sold since Covid and the government are actively sponsoring it, all the argument really is, some groups of club riders need to be a little bit more considerate and some motorists need to chill and stop the bottom lip going at the merest sight of Lycra.
And anyway, everyone is a cyclist, you have a right, enshrined in law to ride a bicycle on the road, maybe give it a try so you have another option, funny seeing my neighbour drive his car less than a quarter of a mile to get a paper, something wrong on a nice day if you do that, like my dads morbidly obese next door neighbour who drives an even shorter distance to get his Chinese takeaway.
I love cars but f
k me, we need to change our relationship with them ad how they are used, a few cyclists riding two abreast is pretty low down the list.kambites said:
Tommo87 said:
If the road is narrower but still passable safely, its bonkers to suggest that riding two abreast is sensible as you are reducing the room for any overtake,
It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
Yes but how many roads are like that? There's a few, certainly, but the vast majority are not, IME. I'd say 90%+ of the time if I come up behind a pair of cyclists, I'd prefer them to be two abreast. It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
kambites said:
Yup, I was just curious as to why the previous post didn't mention them.
Although I'm absolutely certain there's a positive statistical correlation between the number of different modes of transport someone has experience of using on the road and their levels of courtesy to other road users so I'm sure that people who only drive cars are amongst the worst on the road, on average. Most cyclists are also drivers, most drivers are not also cyclists.
ETA: Note that I'm only a car driver, so I'm not trying to defend other road users out of any sort of self-interest!
As a sample of one, my wife only started driving a few years ago and has the classic lack of patience of an Italian along with the quite typical lack of empathy. This resulted in her never giving enough space to cyclists and constantly bemoaning me for sitting behind them until it was clear to pass. Although I'm absolutely certain there's a positive statistical correlation between the number of different modes of transport someone has experience of using on the road and their levels of courtesy to other road users so I'm sure that people who only drive cars are amongst the worst on the road, on average. Most cyclists are also drivers, most drivers are not also cyclists.
ETA: Note that I'm only a car driver, so I'm not trying to defend other road users out of any sort of self-interest!
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 27th October 09:01
Lockdown is looming and she decides to join me in procuring a bicycle as the gyms will be shut, the roads quiet and her a full time health and fitness addict, this seemed very prudent.
The long and the short of it is that when cars began to reappear she witnessed first hand why you give cyclists space and is a far better driver than she ever was as a result, making her look further ahead and start reacting ahead of something that may happen as opposed to do nothing until it does. Some people genuinely can’t learn or refuse to learn until they are physically on the receiving end of the education.
If more people cycled before they drove then there would be better cyclists and motorists out there and the extremist bellends of both camps wouldn’t be able to hide so easily as they would have fewer supporters due to the greater levels of education.
Of course, what you will never change is the fact that there are men out there who genuinely hate what your typical cyclist represents as a man in society and will take any opportunity to stick it to them whatever they are doing. I’ve seen them for decades in London deliberately targeting cyclists the same way some deliberately target other groups they irrationally despise. The flip side with cyclists, unlike ethnic groups, women et al is that an awful lot seem to go out of their way to provoke reactions like those litrle playground weiners of old.
My wife has stopped riding in club groups on the grounds of there being too many very weird men operating in them and it not being a nice environment.
kambites said:
Tommo87 said:
If the road is narrower but still passable safely, its bonkers to suggest that riding two abreast is sensible as you are reducing the room for any overtake,
It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
Yes but how many roads are like that? There's a few, certainly, but the vast majority are not, IME. I'd say 90%+ of the time if I come up behind a pair of cyclists, I'd prefer them to be two abreast. It such situations, its far safer for everyone to ride single file.
cerb4.5lee said:
Yes and that is a fair point. I think that I've always associated being on the other side of the road as being a risk of oncoming traffic, so I've generally always tried to get past cyclists quickly by staying on my side of the road as much as I can.
The fact there's clearly no concensus amongst drivers as to which is the more considerate way to cycle does make it somewhat ridiculous to berate cyclists for being inconsiderate because they don't follow the approach you pesonally prefer. Unless you think the ability to read the mind of the driver behind them should be a prerequisit of cycling on the road? 
I was taught to treat a cyclist as the same size as a car. Idea being, single file is more dangerous, as it encourages unsafe overtaking without leaving the lane properly ...
No idea of the reality of whats safer, but that's what i was taught so it stuck
edit, seems odd that there is such variance in opinion. What does the highway code say?
No idea of the reality of whats safer, but that's what i was taught so it stuck
edit, seems odd that there is such variance in opinion. What does the highway code say?
Edited by lothianJim on Tuesday 27th October 09:37
cerb4.5lee said:
J4CKO said:
I am a bit of a Billy No Mates when I cycle, but when I do ride with someone else its not hard to ride two abreast when its quiet, and then if cars approach fall back into single file.
If nothing else it shows some consideration even if it doesnt make it massively easier to pass.
You hit the nail on the head for me when you mention consideration. Nowadays all the cyclists I see ride with a "I'm alright Jack" attitude. If nothing else it shows some consideration even if it doesnt make it massively easier to pass.
When I used to ride on the roads(well over 20 years ago now) I would ride two abreast if it was quiet, but when I heard the traffic I'd drop back into single file. Cyclists now seem to get a kick out of pissing off the other road users.
Honestly, I cannot think of any logical argument against it.
DonkeyApple said:
This is part of the absence of manners or civility when in a group. There is no logic or fair reasoning to begrudge anyone at all from using the roads for whatever legal purpose they wish. To dislike a cyclist for simply being a cyclist is exactly the same brain function as disliking a woman for being a woman or a non white person for being non white etc. We certainly see bafflingly large numbers of those broken minds on PH and no doubt they have already surfaced on this thread if there isn’t currently a topical thread about women in SUVs to distract them. But all road users must convert respect for each other whether that be drivers being more patient when negotiating fellow and more vulnerable road users and slower road users ensuring they minimise their inconveniencing of their fellows.
The problem with gangs of blokes is that the true nature of the individual human tends to be revealed because that person suddenly has the confidence they lack themselves from their gang to be what they really are. It’s probably the same process where a meek little man who wouldn’t say boo to a goose becomes an unpleasant little turd when cocooned in the safety of their car or the charming man who when no one is looking is a filthy litrle sex pest.
A peleton can be near impossible to pass on certain roads because you don’t really want to be vmaxing it past such vulnerable road users. It only takes one cyclist to have a wobble and they are all having to veer. You want to try and pass with enough speed as to be safe but not too much to then lose that safety and with oncoming traffic you can end up with no safe overtake for miles. The intelligent groups will split into smaller blocks and that’s quite common but the ones who don’t on roads where their speed is abnormally slow and overtakes limited are just showing very poor roadcraft and etiquette.
+1The problem with gangs of blokes is that the true nature of the individual human tends to be revealed because that person suddenly has the confidence they lack themselves from their gang to be what they really are. It’s probably the same process where a meek little man who wouldn’t say boo to a goose becomes an unpleasant little turd when cocooned in the safety of their car or the charming man who when no one is looking is a filthy litrle sex pest.
A peleton can be near impossible to pass on certain roads because you don’t really want to be vmaxing it past such vulnerable road users. It only takes one cyclist to have a wobble and they are all having to veer. You want to try and pass with enough speed as to be safe but not too much to then lose that safety and with oncoming traffic you can end up with no safe overtake for miles. The intelligent groups will split into smaller blocks and that’s quite common but the ones who don’t on roads where their speed is abnormally slow and overtakes limited are just showing very poor roadcraft and etiquette.
There are so many road users (driver, riders etc) who act and think like entitled selfish knobs. A bit of consideration, calm engagement of brain and tolerance all round will make the roads a safer and more pleasant user experience. A thumbs up given to a considerate driver or rider costs nothing.
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
Most roads are wide, but not where I live and these narrow roads are the ones that cyclists ride on around here.
Yes, obviously riding two abread on an A-road with four meter lanes would be daft, but I don't think I've ever actually seen a cyclist do it. Tommo87 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
J4CKO said:
I am a bit of a Billy No Mates when I cycle, but when I do ride with someone else its not hard to ride two abreast when its quiet, and then if cars approach fall back into single file.
If nothing else it shows some consideration even if it doesnt make it massively easier to pass.
You hit the nail on the head for me when you mention consideration. Nowadays all the cyclists I see ride with a "I'm alright Jack" attitude. If nothing else it shows some consideration even if it doesnt make it massively easier to pass.
When I used to ride on the roads(well over 20 years ago now) I would ride two abreast if it was quiet, but when I heard the traffic I'd drop back into single file. Cyclists now seem to get a kick out of pissing off the other road users.
Honestly, I cannot think of any logical argument against it.
When I used to be in the local cycling club when in a group we again would do the same.
I think it's fine when there are no cars behind.
any time I have met cyclists cycling two abreast they have moved into single file to let me overtake safely so never has been an issue to be fair.
and it the road is quiet/empty then why not.
I do know that there are some pricks who continue sitting two abreast and block the road but you get the same kind of idiot in every form of transport sadly.
any time I have met cyclists cycling two abreast they have moved into single file to let me overtake safely so never has been an issue to be fair.
and it the road is quiet/empty then why not.
I do know that there are some pricks who continue sitting two abreast and block the road but you get the same kind of idiot in every form of transport sadly.
DoubleD said:
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
Most roads are wide, but not where I live and these narrow roads are the ones that cyclists ride on around here.
Yes, obviously riding two abread on an A-road with four meter lanes would be daft, but I don't think I've ever actually seen a cyclist do it. Foss62 said:
So what about all the inconsiderate tw*ts who overtake cyclists when it is clear that they will be holding those cyclists up a few yards down the road? If it is obvious that someone is travelling faster than you, then why insist on trying to get past them?
I have a neighbour who will hold up cyclists as that's what they do to him. Keeps him happy. He figures cyclists will do anything to get in front of him - to only hold him up down the road. So he does that to them.DonkeyApple said:
Of course, what you will never change is the fact that there are men out there who genuinely hate what your typical cyclist represents as a man in society and will take any opportunity to stick it to them whatever they are doing. I’ve seen them for decades in London deliberately targeting cyclists the same way some deliberately target other groups they irrationally despise. The flip side with cyclists, unlike ethnic groups, women et al is that an awful lot seem to go out of their way to provoke reactions like those litrle playground weiners of old.
Think you are getting to the core of it, beyond some delay being a bit annoying it seems to go deeper than that.There are socio economic issues, cycling is, in a lot of cases a leisure pursuit and tends to be a bit white, male and middle class. Not exclusively but a big percentage of leisure cyclists and commuters are white and middle class. Various reasons for this but you do seem to get some animosity based on this, A lot cant comprehend why anyone would ride a bike if you have a car. Maybe if you are better off, you dont care if anyone sees it as a lower status activity, in fact enjoy that, where if you arent as well off you dont want people thinking you ride a bike as you cant afford a car.
Car > Bicycle, a pecking order based on the idea a car is a more expensive item and its driver is therefore more important and wealthy than a cyclist, which was perhaps a throwback to the fifties when only wealthy people had cars and everyone else walked or cycled. Might be just because cars are bigger and heavier ? Might be the perception that the roads are for cars and drivers pay VED but it doesn't work like that.
A little bit of jealousy, if you are a big fat knacker huffing on a vape in a worth of shagged out Vectra and a slim, lithe cyclist (not me then....) goes past and you catch your missus checking out the buff lycra dude....
Some of it may be cyclists being a pain in the arse of course, never had much in the way of deliberate reaction provocation. There was one once on my
commute (in full gimpy commuter regalia) when this kid swaggered across the road and deliberately made me slow with a stupid smirk on his face looking at his mates, I just slowed, smiled and said "After you mate", he was wearing some kind of plastic gangster attire including a really big gold chain over a black sweater. I stopped and let him cross and he goes "Oh er, cheers mate", I pedaled across when he had moved and said "You look a right
with that chain on"Krikkit said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Depends. If I'm out with 1 or two others then single file when other traffic is about.
If you're in bigger group say 5+ then side by side would be better and safer.
Just split the group up? You can leave a 50 yard gap and still enjoy yourselves.If you're in bigger group say 5+ then side by side would be better and safer.
2 abreast is not an issue for me I say this as a keen cyclist years ago, one that occasionally commuted to work despite having a fully functioning car! I've seen all sorts on my bike, blasting car horns and screaming passengers trying to scare you, water washers squirting you for 'fun' etc, as they say you get dicks in all walks of life and they use all forms of transport. To counter this I was exhausted one day and lay by a tree at the side of the road and a couple of drivers stopped to ask if I was alright! I would always know what was behind me and often you'd get cars going by fine with some room and then you'd be aware of a artic behind you and I'd often hop up the pavement or pull over else they'd be in my view unreasonably delayed.
Awareness/consideration is key for me, the tractor (or caravan) in Wales moving miles between fields if he sees a train of cars behind him he usually pulls in and lets them go. Peoples view is "thanks mate he's only doing his job and it's nice of him to let us on his way" if he never pulled over after a certain amount of time (which varies for individuals) he becomes "an inconsiderate prick"!. The Artic in my story would give a thank you wave or hazard flash, it's just an awareness that perhaps you can do something that negatively impacts you a tiny bit but positively impacts someone else more.
The cyclist groups have massive antagonist potential because they rarely display considerate behaviour, do they legally have to no, but the perception of them can suffer for not doing so. If I had never stopped to give a lorry an easy way past then I would have had a percentage of close overtakes from a 30 ton vehicle, it's not right perhaps but I know it would have happened on occasion due to frustration/time pressures/misjudgement.
The groups, know they are slower than the general traffic, they know due to their size they are almost impossible to overtake but they just don't care (some definitely take pleasure in the situation). Combine this with everyone being held up knowing that they've got no purpose other than fitness, so they could pull over and have a chit chat if they weren't so concerned with heart rate ranges and average speeds etc and you have a recipe for resentment and resentment can build to hatred.
Awareness/consideration is key for me, the tractor (or caravan) in Wales moving miles between fields if he sees a train of cars behind him he usually pulls in and lets them go. Peoples view is "thanks mate he's only doing his job and it's nice of him to let us on his way" if he never pulled over after a certain amount of time (which varies for individuals) he becomes "an inconsiderate prick"!. The Artic in my story would give a thank you wave or hazard flash, it's just an awareness that perhaps you can do something that negatively impacts you a tiny bit but positively impacts someone else more.
The cyclist groups have massive antagonist potential because they rarely display considerate behaviour, do they legally have to no, but the perception of them can suffer for not doing so. If I had never stopped to give a lorry an easy way past then I would have had a percentage of close overtakes from a 30 ton vehicle, it's not right perhaps but I know it would have happened on occasion due to frustration/time pressures/misjudgement.
The groups, know they are slower than the general traffic, they know due to their size they are almost impossible to overtake but they just don't care (some definitely take pleasure in the situation). Combine this with everyone being held up knowing that they've got no purpose other than fitness, so they could pull over and have a chit chat if they weren't so concerned with heart rate ranges and average speeds etc and you have a recipe for resentment and resentment can build to hatred.
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