Discussion
That video shows a route that is certainly tighter and twistier that the majority of the TT course, and once up to speed with the aero working that car is just awesome, no lifting, just turn the wheel and round you go, (although getting it a little bit wrong would be one heck of an accident)
reminds me of this classic M20 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTjq1s843k
serious speed there, can't see a lot keeping up with that round the IOM!!
reminds me of this classic M20 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTjq1s843k
serious speed there, can't see a lot keeping up with that round the IOM!!
Max_Torque said:
That video shows a route that is certainly tighter and twistier that the majority of the TT course, and once up to speed with the aero working that car is just awesome, no lifting, just turn the wheel and round you go, (although getting it a little bit wrong would be one heck of an accident)
reminds me of this classic M20 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTjq1s843k
serious speed there, can't see a lot keeping up with that round the IOM!!
reminds me of this classic M20 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTjq1s843k
serious speed there, can't see a lot keeping up with that round the IOM!!
Cars, especially ones with downforce, tend to have more of an advantage over cars on faster flowing circuits. For example, the quickest Yamaha R1 lap of the ring is the same as a bog standard Porsche 911 C2S, and I remember Clarkson racing a 996 C2 against a Fireblade around Thruxton and finding the Porsche slightly quicker. That's astonishing, but true, and really illustrates the point. Around Brands, Croft or Cadwell you need a Caterham R500 to beat an R1. With the IOM course though, I feel that a car would have an advantage over a bike in the same way that it does at the Nurburgring; in fact the two tracks are reasonably similar I think.A bit of googling suggests that cars and bikes have drag coeffecicents (Cda) that are very similar (bike has 3x worse Cd, but 3x less frontal area, so overall result is apparently similar).
a 250kg bike with 400 bhp/ton has only say 100bhp.
a 1000kg car with 400 bhp/ton would have 400bhp.
So at say 100mph the aerodrag is probably in the order of 75bhp for both vehicles, that leaves the bike with 25bhp (100bhp/ton) to accelerate, but the car still has 325 (325bhp/ton)left! So generally cars go better than bikes at high speed.
(actually, i suspect that a bikes drag is a bit better than the average car (especially the average race car with wings etc) as typically a 150bhp car does something like 140(ish) mph Vmax, but a 150bhp bike probably will knock on the door of 170 ish ???)
a 250kg bike with 400 bhp/ton has only say 100bhp.
a 1000kg car with 400 bhp/ton would have 400bhp.
So at say 100mph the aerodrag is probably in the order of 75bhp for both vehicles, that leaves the bike with 25bhp (100bhp/ton) to accelerate, but the car still has 325 (325bhp/ton)left! So generally cars go better than bikes at high speed.
(actually, i suspect that a bikes drag is a bit better than the average car (especially the average race car with wings etc) as typically a 150bhp car does something like 140(ish) mph Vmax, but a 150bhp bike probably will knock on the door of 170 ish ???)
Max_Torque said:
reminds me of this classic M20 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTjq1s843k
serious speed there, can't see a lot keeping up with that round the IOM!!
That's the Norma I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Although watching it again, it seems very low-geared suited more for acceleration rather than top speed? I just doubt - with that gearing - it could get anywhere near 200mph without sacrificing stomp out of corners. I still think a ground-effects LM car would best John McGuinness' time over the 37 miles, though.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTjq1s843k
serious speed there, can't see a lot keeping up with that round the IOM!!
WRT that 996 vs R1 lap (Plato in the car, McKenzie on the bike), that was clearly staged: Niall can be seen slowing down at the end of the lap to let Plato through.
Max_Torque said:
A bit of googling suggests that cars and bikes have drag coeffecicents (Cda) that are very similar (bike has 3x worse Cd, but 3x less frontal area, so overall result is apparently similar).
a 250kg bike with 400 bhp/ton has only say 100bhp.
a 1000kg car with 400 bhp/ton would have 400bhp.
So at say 100mph the aerodrag is probably in the order of 75bhp for both vehicles, that leaves the bike with 25bhp (100bhp/ton) to accelerate, but the car still has 325 (325bhp/ton)left! So generally cars go better than bikes at high speed.
(actually, i suspect that a bikes drag is a bit better than the average car (especially the average race car with wings etc) as typically a 150bhp car does something like 140(ish) mph Vmax, but a 150bhp bike probably will knock on the door of 170 ish ???)
That's interesting, I'd never looked that up. That's amazing isn't it, that a tiny little bike can have the same drag as a car!a 250kg bike with 400 bhp/ton has only say 100bhp.
a 1000kg car with 400 bhp/ton would have 400bhp.
So at say 100mph the aerodrag is probably in the order of 75bhp for both vehicles, that leaves the bike with 25bhp (100bhp/ton) to accelerate, but the car still has 325 (325bhp/ton)left! So generally cars go better than bikes at high speed.
(actually, i suspect that a bikes drag is a bit better than the average car (especially the average race car with wings etc) as typically a 150bhp car does something like 140(ish) mph Vmax, but a 150bhp bike probably will knock on the door of 170 ish ???)
Max_Torque said:
RobM77 said:
Don't forget that the sidecar only has one front wheel, so half the braking capacity, and probably less cornering too.
not really true, as with only 1 front wheel it can only generate half the force of say a car braking, but as it only weighs 300kg, it only needs too. The braking limit on a motorbike is set by the height of the CofG and it's wheelbase, only so hard it can brake before you do a stoppie!The sidecar has the CofG of a snake i suspect in comparison!!
Also the side car has a massive cornering advantage throught being able to shift nearly 30% of it's mass to the inside of the corner, well, assumming the passenger is doing the right thing. This will massively reduce lateral weight transfer to it's advantage.
I suspect something like a caterham on slicks will only outstop a sidecar on slicks by a few percent.
Having just watched the Pond Rover video, i can't really see all the "bumps" mentioned earlier, looks damm smooth too me, and compared to some hill climbs/rally stages it's really wide too!
kiteless said:
WRT that 996 vs R1 lap (Plato in the car, McKenzie on the bike), that was clearly staged: Niall can be seen slowing down at the end of the lap to let Plato through.
It wouldn't surprise me. What did surprise me though is the ring times for fast bikes though - it shows what happens on a flowing track. I was brought up on twisty tracks like Brands, so assumed an R1 would take some beating in a car. It's a different matter though on a fast flowing track, which Pond's time obviously shows well, because that car is a shed compared with the bikes that do the same times!This may interest everyone:
1993 F1 car on a hill climb using a section of the IOM TT Course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFyDmal8_4
Sadly he doesn't look like he's really going for it (not surprising, given the few number of people that can really push an F1 car to the limit). One thing that this video does prove though is that the IOM TT course is not totally different to other road based circuits that F1 and F3000 run on - the car copes with the bumps just fine, despite what people repeatedly say.
Guy Martin record lap from 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFUYIH2Ttzk
Guy's one of my favourite riders - I just love his laid back attitude.
A true PHer if ever there was one
If anyone's interested, I timed the car and the bike from a monument type structure before the left hand hairpin (Ramsey Hairpin I think), up to a large signpost about 45 seconds later, where Guy says his sister's doing a pitboard. This section favours the bike because of the hard uphill acceleration zones and lack of fast bends, but nevertheless, it's the best pair of videos we've yet seen on this thread. The car was 3 seconds quicker over this section (46 seconds for the car, 49 seconds for the bike). That means the car does 93.8% of the bike's laptime, so if it keeps that up it would finish the course just over a minute ahead of Guy.
Does that finish this silly debate?
1993 F1 car on a hill climb using a section of the IOM TT Course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFyDmal8_4
Sadly he doesn't look like he's really going for it (not surprising, given the few number of people that can really push an F1 car to the limit). One thing that this video does prove though is that the IOM TT course is not totally different to other road based circuits that F1 and F3000 run on - the car copes with the bumps just fine, despite what people repeatedly say.
Guy Martin record lap from 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFUYIH2Ttzk
Guy's one of my favourite riders - I just love his laid back attitude.
A true PHer if ever there was one If anyone's interested, I timed the car and the bike from a monument type structure before the left hand hairpin (Ramsey Hairpin I think), up to a large signpost about 45 seconds later, where Guy says his sister's doing a pitboard. This section favours the bike because of the hard uphill acceleration zones and lack of fast bends, but nevertheless, it's the best pair of videos we've yet seen on this thread. The car was 3 seconds quicker over this section (46 seconds for the car, 49 seconds for the bike). That means the car does 93.8% of the bike's laptime, so if it keeps that up it would finish the course just over a minute ahead of Guy.
Does that finish this silly debate?
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 19th July 22:55
poo at Paul's said:
Except the F1 there will have fuel for maybe 5 miles, whilst the bike will have enought for 70 miles on board?
Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Hmm.. the average Grand Prix is about 200 miles long, and the lap times at the start of the race with 200 miles of fuel are only a couple of seconds (over 1m30) off those with 1 lap of fuel left near the end of the race. So at worst, 70 laps of fuel in an F1 car will make it a second slower over 45 seconds. So even that bloke in the video (who is clearly not a very fast driver) is still going to finish about 40 seconds ahead of Guy Martin at the end of the lap. And that's assuming that that short section is representative, which given that it plays to the bike's strengths, not the car's, isn't the case. I think in reality we're looking at about two minutes difference at the end of the lap. Get a more recent V10 F1 car out there with Mr Hamilton driving and it'd be an even bigger difference Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 19th July 23:42
hairykrishna said:
Nice. That's a great illustration of how much faster something like that F1 car is than a bike. As you say, it doesn't even seem like the drivers really pushing.
+1There is a lot of speed left in that car, it looked like the driver was being very careful.
Regarding fuel levels, it wouldn't make nearly enough difference to make any bike nearly as fast as that F1 car.
Well done Rob, I think you may have ended the myth.
RobM77 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Except the F1 there will have fuel for maybe 5 miles, whilst the bike will have enought for 70 miles on board?
Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Hmm.. the average Grand Prix is about 200 miles long, and the lap times at the start of the race with 200 miles of fuel are only a couple of seconds (over 1m30) off those with 1 lap of fuel left near the end of the race. So at worst, 70 laps of fuel in an F1 car will make it a second slower over 45 seconds. So even that bloke in the video (who is clearly not a very fast driver) is still going to finish about 40 seconds ahead of Guy Martin at the end of the lap. And that's assuming that that short section is representative, which given that it plays to the bike's strengths, not the car's, isn't the case. I think in reality we're looking at about two minutes difference at the end of the lap. Get a more recent V10 F1 car out there with Mr Hamilton driving and it'd be an even bigger difference Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Collectively we all need to figure out who to contact, surely someone somewhere on here could get the ball rolling for another car to have a hot lap of the entire course, naturally TT week 2011 would be the prime time
Settle the argument once and for all.
SlipStream77 said:
hairykrishna said:
Nice. That's a great illustration of how much faster something like that F1 car is than a bike. As you say, it doesn't even seem like the drivers really pushing.
+1There is a lot of speed left in that car, it looked like the driver was being very careful.
Regarding fuel levels, it wouldn't make nearly enough difference to make any bike nearly as fast as that F1 car.
Well done Rob, I think you may have ended the myth.
Check out these lap time comparisons:
BOSS at Spa a few weeks ago (I was there and it was great!); fastest lap 2:01 - average lap 2:15 http://www.bossgp.com/mediabeheer/download.php?pb=...
Current F1 Lap Record - 1m47s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_de_Spa-Franco...
Note that it's the same layout - 7004m long.
So a decent driver in a modern F1 car is running about 20 seconds quicker than an amateur in a 1993 F1 car over a 2 minute lap, which over our 45 second run is about 8 seconds quicker, or 11 seconds quicker than Guy Martin. Scale that up to the full TT course and you get about 4m15s. If we account for the faster sections, where the car will dominate (our 45 seconds is a slow section with two hairpins), and I think you'd be looking at about 5 minutes difference between modern F1 and modern race bike
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 19th July 23:47
v8will said:
RobM77 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Except the F1 there will have fuel for maybe 5 miles, whilst the bike will have enought for 70 miles on board?
Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Hmm.. the average Grand Prix is about 200 miles long, and the lap times at the start of the race with 200 miles of fuel are only a couple of seconds (over 1m30) off those with 1 lap of fuel left near the end of the race. So at worst, 70 laps of fuel in an F1 car will make it a second slower over 45 seconds. So even that bloke in the video (who is clearly not a very fast driver) is still going to finish about 40 seconds ahead of Guy Martin at the end of the lap. And that's assuming that that short section is representative, which given that it plays to the bike's strengths, not the car's, isn't the case. I think in reality we're looking at about two minutes difference at the end of the lap. Get a more recent V10 F1 car out there with Mr Hamilton driving and it'd be an even bigger difference Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Collectively we all need to figure out who to contact, surely someone somewhere on here could get the ball rolling for another car to have a hot lap of the entire course, naturally TT week 2011 would be the prime time
Settle the argument once and for all.
Nevertheless, the TT on bikes is scary enough I think. If I'm right and an F1 car would be several minutes quicker over the lap, it would simply be too dangerous.
RobM77 said:
v8will said:
RobM77 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Except the F1 there will have fuel for maybe 5 miles, whilst the bike will have enought for 70 miles on board?
Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Hmm.. the average Grand Prix is about 200 miles long, and the lap times at the start of the race with 200 miles of fuel are only a couple of seconds (over 1m30) off those with 1 lap of fuel left near the end of the race. So at worst, 70 laps of fuel in an F1 car will make it a second slower over 45 seconds. So even that bloke in the video (who is clearly not a very fast driver) is still going to finish about 40 seconds ahead of Guy Martin at the end of the lap. And that's assuming that that short section is representative, which given that it plays to the bike's strengths, not the car's, isn't the case. I think in reality we're looking at about two minutes difference at the end of the lap. Get a more recent V10 F1 car out there with Mr Hamilton driving and it'd be an even bigger difference Once adjusted for fuel it may be closer than you think!
Collectively we all need to figure out who to contact, surely someone somewhere on here could get the ball rolling for another car to have a hot lap of the entire course, naturally TT week 2011 would be the prime time
Settle the argument once and for all.
Nevertheless, the TT on bikes is scary enough I think. If I'm right and an F1 car would be several minutes quicker over the lap, it would simply be too dangerous.
Maybe that Mclaren MPC thingy, get Guy to give Hamilton tuition of the course or vice versa. That could work; factory backing, publicity, world class driver etc etc etc. The level wouldn't have to be a 130MPH lap (officially anyway), it'd just be interesting instead of 'another' ring time.
Edited by v8will on Tuesday 20th July 00:00
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