Stupid things non petrolheads say....
Discussion
tfin said:
Speaking to a car salesman earlier today:
The salesman -"Oh no no no, they dont make the M3 anymore. I was speaking to a BMW salesman the other day and he said they dont make them"
Me - "nope, they do."
Him - "A BMW salesman man said so, and if anybody knows, its him."
Me - *walks away*
The m3, or THAT M3 as in (Older model no longer in production)The salesman -"Oh no no no, they dont make the M3 anymore. I was speaking to a BMW salesman the other day and he said they dont make them"
Me - "nope, they do."
Him - "A BMW salesman man said so, and if anybody knows, its him."
Me - *walks away*
walm said:
Pan Pan said:
If the rather ridiculous statement, that we must not build more roads, because they will only fill up with more vehicles is true, then equally we must not build more prisons because they will only fill up with more criminals.
You just don't get it.Your logic is utterly flawed.
Do yourself a favour and read the link I posted.
Building more roads, induces demand for road travel. That is a simple and obvious fact.
There is nothing in that statement which says anything about prisons, schools or hospitals.
Do you honestly believe that if you added four lanes to the M25 no more people might take their car rather than the train because all the congestion has gone??
Pan Pan said:
Do you seriously believe we build more roads, just for the sake of building more roads???
I never said or implied that. You are attempting to build a strawman and failing.More roads will ease congestion but not at a 1:1 ratio because as you improve travel times, more people choose to drive over other travel options or not making the journey at all.
I am not saying that 100% of that extra road space will be eaten by this extra demand hence all road building is pointless. I am simply saying that UNLIKE schools and prisons (with FIXED demand - short/medium term) you have to take into account the flexibility of travel demand when easing congestion with a new bit of road space.
It's not rocket science!
If you are going to look at the issue of supply and demand, you really must make an accurate assessment of demand, otherwise your comments are in fact quite meaningless.
It would seem that it is your view, or your logic which is utterly flawed, that or you are able to put your head in the sand and avoid the reality of a situation completely.
Whilst people who come to Pistonheads might be expected to go out for a drive, just for the sake of driving, the overwhelming majority of UK road users do not, therefore their use of roads is on a need to, rather than want to, basis. Rail travel has increased massively in the last few years, and yet the demand for new roads is also increasing.
Demand for hospital beds has increased massively, the demand for housing has increased massively. Do you deny this?
Do you believe that if we don't build hospitals, sick people will think, they are not building enough hospitals so I wont be sick as I wont get treated? Or perhaps you believe that because demand for hospitals / roads etc will peak at some undefined point. there is no point in building more hospitals or roads now. The demand for more road space is caused by EXACTLY the same increasing demand, that applies to housing, hospitals, schools, prisons etc. If you cannot see that, I suggest you go away and study the dynamics of supply and demand.
Pan Pan said:
Schools and hospitals with FIXED demand!!?? what planet are you on? The demand for these facilities AND ROADS and many more, is increasing because the UK is increasing its population at a rate it has NEVER seen in its entire history.
I haven't worked out if you don't know what you're talking about, or just don't know what you're saying. Demand for schools and prisons is independent of the provisions to satisfy that demand; road usage is not.It's not a difficult concept.
Pan Pan said:
walm said:
Pan Pan said:
If the rather ridiculous statement, that we must not build more roads, because they will only fill up with more vehicles is true, then equally we must not build more prisons because they will only fill up with more criminals.
You just don't get it.Your logic is utterly flawed.
Do yourself a favour and read the link I posted.
Building more roads, induces demand for road travel. That is a simple and obvious fact.
There is nothing in that statement which says anything about prisons, schools or hospitals.
Do you honestly believe that if you added four lanes to the M25 no more people might take their car rather than the train because all the congestion has gone??
Pan Pan said:
Do you seriously believe we build more roads, just for the sake of building more roads???
I never said or implied that. You are attempting to build a strawman and failing.More roads will ease congestion but not at a 1:1 ratio because as you improve travel times, more people choose to drive over other travel options or not making the journey at all.
I am not saying that 100% of that extra road space will be eaten by this extra demand hence all road building is pointless. I am simply saying that UNLIKE schools and prisons (with FIXED demand - short/medium term) you have to take into account the flexibility of travel demand when easing congestion with a new bit of road space.
It's not rocket science!
If you are going to look at the issue of supply and demand, you really must make an accurate assessment of demand, otherwise your comments are in fact quite meaningless.
It would seem that it is your view, or your logic which is utterly flawed, that or you are able to put your head in the sand and avoid the reality of a situation completely.
Whilst people who come to Pistonheads might be expected to go out for a drive, just for the sake of driving, the overwhelming majority of UK road users do not, therefore their use of roads is on a need to, rather than want to, basis. Rail travel has increased massively in the last few years, and yet the demand for new roads is also increasing.
Demand for hospital beds has increased massively, the demand for housing has increased massively. Do you deny this?
Do you believe that if we don't build hospitals, sick people will think, they are not building enough hospitals so I wont be sick as I wont get treated? Or perhaps you believe that because demand for hospitals / roads etc will peak at some undefined point. there is no point in building more hospitals or roads now. The demand for more road space is caused by EXACTLY the same increasing demand, that applies to housing, hospitals, schools, prisons etc. If you cannot see that, I suggest you go away and study the dynamics of supply and demand.
Pan Pan said:
The demand for more road space is caused by EXACTLY the same increasing demand, that applies to housing, hospitals, schools, prisons etc. If you cannot see that, I suggest you go away and study the dynamics of supply and demand.
I am sorry but you are completely wrong.You are the one who simply needs to read the link I posted on "induced demand".
It really isn't hard!
From the link which you can't be arsed to educate yourself with:
"Induced demand, or latent demand, is the phenomenon that after supply increases, more of a good is consumed. This is entirely consistent with the economic theory of supply and demand.
Latent demand has been recognised by road traffic professionals for many decades.
Motorways and bypasses generate traffic, that is, produce extra traffic, partly by inducing people to travel who would not otherwise have done so by making the new route more convenient than the old."
You are completely ignoring the simple fact that people have a CHOICE about whether to use the road or not.
They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
Obviously population growth will increase demand for all these things but I am absolutely not talking about that.
Consider my commute.
I take the train for an hour having driven to the station.
I would FAR rather take the car all the way to the office.
But I don't because congestion is too bad and it would take longer than taking the train.
If you build more roads to ease that congestion then I might very well take the car instead.
So my CHOICE to go by car has increased demand for the road ABOVE demand increase from population growth.
Likewise, I would certainly visit the father-in-law on the other side of the M25 more often if it wasn't always jammed.
More lanes on the M25 solves the jam problem and so I would CHOOSE to go on a journey rather than stay at home. That increases demand.
walm said:
You are completely ignoring the simple fact that people have a CHOICE about whether to use the road or not.
They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
OK, I'll pile on. I've had instances where I've injured myself. Twisted ankle playing football, possible broken toe, again playing football. I didn't go to hospital because I couldn't be arsed sitting around for hours. If I knew I could have turned up and been seen immediately, then I probably would have gone. So, if they built more hospitals, demand could also rise as a result.They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
walm said:
Pan Pan said:
The demand for more road space is caused by EXACTLY the same increasing demand, that applies to housing, hospitals, schools, prisons etc. If you cannot see that, I suggest you go away and study the dynamics of supply and demand.
I am sorry but you are completely wrong.You are the one who simply needs to read the link I posted on "induced demand".
It really isn't hard!
From the link which you can't be arsed to educate yourself with:
"Induced demand, or latent demand, is the phenomenon that after supply increases, more of a good is consumed. This is entirely consistent with the economic theory of supply and demand.
Latent demand has been recognised by road traffic professionals for many decades.
Motorways and bypasses generate traffic, that is, produce extra traffic, partly by inducing people to travel who would not otherwise have done so by making the new route more convenient than the old."
You are completely ignoring the simple fact that people have a CHOICE about whether to use the road or not.
They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
Obviously population growth will increase demand for all these things but I am absolutely not talking about that.
Consider my commute.
I take the train for an hour having driven to the station.
I would FAR rather take the car all the way to the office.
But I don't because congestion is too bad and it would take longer than taking the train.
If you build more roads to ease that congestion then I might very well take the car instead.
So my CHOICE to go by car has increased demand for the road ABOVE demand increase from population growth.
Likewise, I would certainly visit the father-in-law on the other side of the M25 more often if it wasn't always jammed.
More lanes on the M25 solves the jam problem and so I would CHOOSE to go on a journey rather than stay at home. That increases demand.
Most people hardly consider traffic levels, and road space, when they want and do buy a car. They just buy the car, and worry about having the room to use it, or getting stuck in traffic when they get on the road (or stuck in traffic)
The construction of new roads is based on forecasts of future traffic levels, as well as current congestion. If people want to travel by car, they will do so. Only in isolated cases, wlll they let road space, and traffic levels affect whether or not they buy or use a car.
So the demand for more road space is more to do with the increasing demands of a rapidly increasing population, which is EXACTLY the same reason for the increasing demand for more hospitals / houses / schools / prisons / trains etc.
If the population was decreasing, why we we need to build more of ANY of these items. The answer is we would simply not need to. What we have now would be adequate. As posted earlier you seem to ignore the fact that demand for ALL these items including roads is increasing. therefore to not build more roads would result in even greater congestion.
VladD said:
walm said:
You are completely ignoring the simple fact that people have a CHOICE about whether to use the road or not.
They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
OK, I'll pile on. I've had instances where I've injured myself. Twisted ankle playing football, possible broken toe, again playing football. I didn't go to hospital because I couldn't be arsed sitting around for hours. If I knew I could have turned up and been seen immediately, then I probably would have gone. So, if they built more hospitals, demand could also rise as a result.They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
The fact that induced demand holds for A&E was a nuance about 1 mile too far for Pan Pan so I simplified.
walm said:
VladD said:
walm said:
You are completely ignoring the simple fact that people have a CHOICE about whether to use the road or not.
They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
OK, I'll pile on. I've had instances where I've injured myself. Twisted ankle playing football, possible broken toe, again playing football. I didn't go to hospital because I couldn't be arsed sitting around for hours. If I knew I could have turned up and been seen immediately, then I probably would have gone. So, if they built more hospitals, demand could also rise as a result.They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
The fact that induced demand holds for A&E was a nuance about 1 mile too far for Pan Pan so I simplified.
1. Is the UK population increasing?
2. Is it increasing at a rate the UK has not seen before?
3. If we increase the population, will we need more houses / schools / hospitals/ prisons / trains / roads, or less?
4 If we have an increasing population how will not increasing facilities. houses / schools / hospitals /prisons / trains / roads improve the manner of meeting demand?
Are you absolutely sure you understand the concept of supply and demand. The demand for new roads amogst other things, is ALREADY there, (and increasing) This is the REALITY of the situation. whether your semantics, like it or not. What you seem to be saying is that demand should be ignored, because trying to meet it, will just create more demand. That can be applied to hospitals schools, prisons etc.
walm said:
VladD said:
walm said:
You are completely ignoring the simple fact that people have a CHOICE about whether to use the road or not.
They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
OK, I'll pile on. I've had instances where I've injured myself. Twisted ankle playing football, possible broken toe, again playing football. I didn't go to hospital because I couldn't be arsed sitting around for hours. If I knew I could have turned up and been seen immediately, then I probably would have gone. So, if they built more hospitals, demand could also rise as a result.They don't have a choice about whether to go to school or to get ill.
The fact that induced demand holds for A&E was a nuance about 1 mile too far for Pan Pan so I simplified.
Pan Pan said:
People do not think there is a road out there with not much traffic on it , so I must go out and buy a car so that I can fill it up with more cars.
That is exactly what they do - or more likely they just use the car they already own more because it is now quicker than using the train.I give up. For the last time: READ THE LINK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
Sorry Vlad - I will shut up now.
walm said:
That is exactly what they do - or more likely they just use the car they already own more because it is now quicker than using the train.
I give up. For the last time: READ THE LINK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
Sorry Vlad - I will shut up now.
I give up. For the last time: READ THE LINK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
Sorry Vlad - I will shut up now.
Nice car collection by the way.
walm said:
Pan Pan said:
People do not think there is a road out there with not much traffic on it , so I must go out and buy a car so that I can fill it up with more cars.
That is exactly what they do - or more likely they just use the car they already own more because it is now quicker than using the train.I give up. For the last time: READ THE LINK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
Sorry Vlad - I will shut up now.
Sorry but the link to the idea of induced demand is utter cobblers, because it is based on a fallacy. The demand for a facility such as a road, does NOT go away if the demand is not met, it simply builds up further.
This is what I have been trying to make you understand. Do you believe that because there are not enough houses, roads, hospitals etc in the UK, that the `demand' for them in this country will just simply go away?
The reality is, it does not, it simply builds to even greater levels of demand. Prices will / might rise, but the demand itself does not go away. The demand only starts to dissipate when enough of a particular facility has been built /provided to meet that demand. That does not appear to be the case for UK roads.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff