RE: PH Footnote: Aussie car industry demise
Discussion
Jader1973 said:
big_rob_sydney said:
And another thing not mentioned in the article. ADR's... What a load of s
t these are. (Australian Design Rules). Where do the muppets in government get the big idea that, a car which is designed for safe use in, say, Japan, needs a different set of rules for them to be okay for use in Australia???
What about European regs? Or North American regs? Or Japanese regs? There is no global standard.t these are. (Australian Design Rules). Where do the muppets in government get the big idea that, a car which is designed for safe use in, say, Japan, needs a different set of rules for them to be okay for use in Australia???Let me try again.
Car maker. Makes cars.
Europe. 500 million buyers.
North America. 400 million buyers.
Australia. 24 million.
Aus is a minnow in trade terms, and manufacturers won't spend a lot of money to cater to such a tiny market. As such, the imposition of ADR's only serve to marginalise, rather than enhance.
A side effect, is the higher cost of cars, beyond just the initial difficulty of having to add market specific changes, and what this means to supply, logistics, and production line process changes.
Simple example. Check the price of a car here in the UK (say on Autotrader), then have a look at the same car on the Carsales Australia website.
You will be shocked at the price difference, which largely comes down to government intervention through a variety of mechanism. Taxes, duty, currency, transportation, all play a part.
But its clear that, if the governmental interference was stripped away, makers would ship their products anywhere they could sell them without hassles.
And nothing of value was lost.
The Australian car industry was a huge money sink and produced very few exports (and 90% of those were selling Toyota Camry's to the Middle East).
They might post impressive 1/4 mile times, but they cornered like a river barge. Performance was never great for the engine capacities, at one point Holden took the crown for the worlds slowest 400 HP car off of the Americans. They had cheap interiors and were utterly uninspiring to drive. Nothing like a modern German saloon at all.
Worse yet, they couldn't be exported. Holden tried (Ford barely made a token effort) but you've got something that is priced like a 3 Series, doesn't perform like a 3 series and drinks fuel. It was a car that Europeans didn't want and was too expensive for Americans. Australia is just too small a market to support two mediocre saloon cars unique to that market.
I got a 240i for less than £36,000, in AUD that $62,000, however a 240i in Australia starts at AU$75,000 or £45,000 at today's exchange rate? What is so expensive that it costs the equivalent of a Citroen C1 to get it from Germany to Australia?
The kicker is, in taxation terms we pay more here in the UK, 20% VAT compared to Australia's 10% GST. As the taxable value of the car is less than AU$65,000 it doesn't even qualify for the LCT (Luxury Car Tax, 33% on ever $ over $65,000). I cant honestly believe it costs £9,000 to ship to and comply a car for Australia when you can get a German made VW Golf for A$25,000 list price (£15,000)
Manufacturers get to take the piss with Australians because we've been a captive audience for so long. Sadly even with the requirement for import restrictions now gone, dead and buried, the govt wont relax import restrictions.
The Australian car industry was a huge money sink and produced very few exports (and 90% of those were selling Toyota Camry's to the Middle East).
big_rob_sydney said:
If the cars were any good, they'd be selling in sufficient numbers to warrant their continued existence.
They aren't. So they don't. Good riddance to these buckets of crap.
This. They aren't. So they don't. Good riddance to these buckets of crap.
They might post impressive 1/4 mile times, but they cornered like a river barge. Performance was never great for the engine capacities, at one point Holden took the crown for the worlds slowest 400 HP car off of the Americans. They had cheap interiors and were utterly uninspiring to drive. Nothing like a modern German saloon at all.
Worse yet, they couldn't be exported. Holden tried (Ford barely made a token effort) but you've got something that is priced like a 3 Series, doesn't perform like a 3 series and drinks fuel. It was a car that Europeans didn't want and was too expensive for Americans. Australia is just too small a market to support two mediocre saloon cars unique to that market.
big_rob_sydney said:
You will be shocked at the price difference, which largely comes down to government intervention through a variety of mechanism. Taxes, duty, currency, transportation, all play a part.
But its clear that, if the governmental interference was stripped away, makers would ship their products anywhere they could sell them without hassles.
As much as I dislike the Australian Governments attitude to car imports and taxation, they are not entirely or even primarily to blame. Manufacturers are jacking up prices.But its clear that, if the governmental interference was stripped away, makers would ship their products anywhere they could sell them without hassles.
I got a 240i for less than £36,000, in AUD that $62,000, however a 240i in Australia starts at AU$75,000 or £45,000 at today's exchange rate? What is so expensive that it costs the equivalent of a Citroen C1 to get it from Germany to Australia?
The kicker is, in taxation terms we pay more here in the UK, 20% VAT compared to Australia's 10% GST. As the taxable value of the car is less than AU$65,000 it doesn't even qualify for the LCT (Luxury Car Tax, 33% on ever $ over $65,000). I cant honestly believe it costs £9,000 to ship to and comply a car for Australia when you can get a German made VW Golf for A$25,000 list price (£15,000)
Manufacturers get to take the piss with Australians because we've been a captive audience for so long. Sadly even with the requirement for import restrictions now gone, dead and buried, the govt wont relax import restrictions.
Wayoftheflower said:
Subsidies can be a range of measures often subtly done so as not to violate free trade agreements. It would almost never be as explicit as "have some cash", research grants, tax rebates, low interest loans, infrastructure investment etc.
"have some cash" 
Put a smile on my face. And, actually, there are probably a couple of governments, in a handful of countries, which chronically cast subtlety aside -- notorious revolving door and all that.On a more serious note, and in consideration of the subtle giving that you mention, it would be helpful to get a handle on the details. I appreciate that much is hidden from view. Nevertheless, if we are talking about Germany giving five times per capita (as Australia) and the US giving 20 times per capita, a bit more insight would not be a bad thing.
Jader1973 said:
The Chev SS was volume limited because of CAFE regs - one Chev SS = one huge Chev pick up. Guess which one makes more $ and is therefore the one they'd rather sell.
The Chevrolet SS from Holden was a petrolhead's dream. Detroit had listened to the aspirations of US enthusiasts, and Detroit, courtesy of Holden, had delivered. The web and enthusiast media lit up with joy. But after all the excitement had settled... nobody purchased these cars. And these cars languished on dealer lots for many weeks longer than average.
People shopping niche vehicles such as the Chevrolet SS are not cross shopping with pickup trucks (General Motors sells 750,000+ of the latter per annum).
Is there information about how the US government restricted the supply side of the Chevrolet SS via CAFE or other?
Wayoftheflower said:
Bit of a brief history on some of Ford Australia's attempts to get approval from Detroit to export into America Article
Cheers. Welp, it looks like the Americans at Ford were notably less internationalist than the Americans at General Motors, doesn't it.
If I may distill the article:
- Over the last 10 years, Ford Australia attempted to offer the Falcon as a police car in the US; these efforts were tabled by Ford US.
- Over at Holden, the Australians were given the green light (by General Motors US) to export to the US market. Holden produced LHD police cars for police and law enforcement departments across the entire US. Despite this success, Holden still managed to be unsustainable as a manufacturing entity.
- In the 1980s, Ford Australia asked to produce LHD Falcons for the US market -- and Ford US agreed. Later, Ford Australia withdrew its proposal. Ford Australia chose instead to enhance the efficiency of the six-cylinder engine used in its domestic market.
- During the planning phase of the preceding, in the 1980s, Ford US warned Ford Australia that Ford Australia was struggling to be a profitable enterprise.
Jader1973 said:
The global playing field is far from level. US states actively bidding for car plants is an example.
US states compete for all businesses, not just those in manufacturing. They are competing now for the HQ2 from Amazon. They compete for foreign-owned brands just as much for US-owned brands. Germans build cars and components in a number of southern US states. Toyota has decided to move its North American headquarters from California to Texas. Mercedes-Benz and Porsche decided to move their North American headquarters from New Jersey to Georgia.
How does the competitiveness of US states constitute unfair trade or abuse toward Australia?
unsprung said:
US states compete for all businesses, not just those in manufacturing. They are competing now for the HQ2 from Amazon. They compete for foreign-owned brands just as much for US-owned brands.
Germans build cars and components in a number of southern US states. Toyota has decided to move its North American headquarters from California to Texas. Mercedes-Benz and Porsche decided to move their North American headquarters from New Jersey to Georgia.
How does the competitiveness of US states constitute unfair trade or abuse toward Australia?
I suspect the answer is in the soft subsidies.Germans build cars and components in a number of southern US states. Toyota has decided to move its North American headquarters from California to Texas. Mercedes-Benz and Porsche decided to move their North American headquarters from New Jersey to Georgia.
How does the competitiveness of US states constitute unfair trade or abuse toward Australia?
Any assistance firm A is given, when firm A competes with firm B and B may not receive the same benefits, then this means its not a level playing field.
One might argue that is unfair.
Also, I don't know if you've read about competitive advantage or absolute advantage? Its an interesting discussion.
big_rob_sydney said:
Also, I don't know if you've read about competitive advantage or absolute advantage? Its an interesting discussion.
The term is "comparative advantage" (and not competitive advantage). Are you asserting that the Holden plant in Elizabeth enjoys either a comparative or absolute advantage in automotive production over, say, automotive manufacture in the south of the US or in the depressed economies of the US rust belt?
big_rob_sydney said:
I suspect the answer is in the soft subsidies.
Any assistance firm A is given, when firm A competes with firm B and B may not receive the same benefits, then this means its not a level playing field.
One might argue that is unfair.
All companies of equal impact are offered incentives by US states. There is no discrimination on the basis of nationality. Consequently your argument is mooted on competition that occurs within the US.Any assistance firm A is given, when firm A competes with firm B and B may not receive the same benefits, then this means its not a level playing field.
One might argue that is unfair.
On international competition... If states and territories of Australia say...
"We are content to collect less than 20 percent of total tax revenue in our country whilst US states collect a percentage that is twice that figure. And, related to this, we accept an amount of self determination that is less than states in the US."
...how is that evidence of unfair behaviour by US states?
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