Why I didn't buy a Lotus
Discussion
I thought it may be of interest to others to briefly document my recent decision to buy an alternative car rather than an Elise or an Evora....or...anything else.........
I am in the fortunate position of already running a reasonably swift road car (330d) and also a 420kg/390 bhp single seater for weekend fun, but have always had an itch to also own and drive an iconic performance car to fill in between race weekends. I did own, (repair frequently) and have fun in a 501 Elite many years ago........
So selection criteria :
I've never been a big fan of Italian exotica and a fun road car still has to be usable on our cr*p UK roads, so something good to look at, with good handling/brakes, acceptable ride quality, not too wide or with too little ground clearance, fairly quick between the corners and a reasonable idea of residual value after a few years would be needed to scratch the itch.
When you look closely this ends up as a fairly short list of contenders:
Impreza (OK doesn't fit 'good looking'!). I drove the previous and latest 'C' spec hatchback Imprezas - fabulous grip, magic engine, OK brakes, ride quality - not for my back, for raw pace and practicality great value.
Cayman R – only demonstrator available was a PDK 'R' in that strange metallic frog green - well quick enough, great brakes appalling ride quality – on poor B roads and smaller C roads with ripples and pot holes (you know the ones you actually want to use without speed cameras hiding everywhere) it was a joke – also very boomy and noisy, in my view just a track car – a standard 'S' with PASM may be OK.
911 Carrera S - drove manual and PDK – for me 'fun' involves changing gears manually so although PDK very clever not for me - (still has that irritating automatic slipping clutch type rev matching if you don't use the flappy paddles), brilliant steering, brakes, traction, gear change, reasonably fast between corners 'hewn from solid' feel to it, practical for every day use, sounds good. Ride quality quite acceptable if PASM button kept in 'normal' mode. Residuals reasonably predictable if you don't buy a new one. Downside – bit too many of them to feel really special.
Evora - have loved the look of this since launch and in the flesh I find the Evora to be the best looking reasonably priced GT car currently available - I really wanted to love it. Drove a normally aspirated standard gear ratio version - brilliant ride, grip, brakes, steering, quick enough if well revved in gears 1 to 3, a bit limp in the rest so CR ratios desirable. Gearchange OK if not rushed. Build quality superficially good – but looking at a selection of interiors in PH classifieds pictures, and the stock at the dealer I attended, the seat/ door and dash leather doesn't look like it will reflect a £50 -£70k new price tag in a couple of years. Biggest concern is residuals – used prices (as advertised) vary dramatically and represent significant drops from new for low mileage cars.
Elise – have always loved the shape, size and simplicity of the S2/S3, drove a 1.6 S3, great handling, brakes grip, steering, not very quick between corners, ride quality very good. That was OK, probably the SC would suit me except for........it needed a jump start before the test – this is a less than 10k miles 2011 car FFS! Then there was the gearchange , it would not select 2nd when cold, was mega stiff between gears and across the gate, had a 'false neutral' when attempting to select 4th. The charming and knowledgable (lady!) sales person assured me 'they are all like this' - surely not?
Audi TT RS – bit of a wild card I didn't know it existed but spotted it by chance in an EVO test, drove a nice meteor grey one with Audi Magnetic ride (copy of PASM really). Magic engine - genuine 80's Quattro Sport sound track, mega grip, fast between corners, good brakes, Audi build quality, but heavy lifeless steering and the worst crime - the brake pedal is too high compared to the throttle so fluidly moving between gas and brakes just impossible.
Decision – had to be the Carrera in the end (should be picking up a 12 month old example this Saturday -yipee!) - but I really wanted it to be the Evora – maybe in a couple of years when the 2012 model has been around...........
All the above just my opinion and what suits me so if any one is interested please shoot down my observations!
I am in the fortunate position of already running a reasonably swift road car (330d) and also a 420kg/390 bhp single seater for weekend fun, but have always had an itch to also own and drive an iconic performance car to fill in between race weekends. I did own, (repair frequently) and have fun in a 501 Elite many years ago........
So selection criteria :
I've never been a big fan of Italian exotica and a fun road car still has to be usable on our cr*p UK roads, so something good to look at, with good handling/brakes, acceptable ride quality, not too wide or with too little ground clearance, fairly quick between the corners and a reasonable idea of residual value after a few years would be needed to scratch the itch.
When you look closely this ends up as a fairly short list of contenders:
Impreza (OK doesn't fit 'good looking'!). I drove the previous and latest 'C' spec hatchback Imprezas - fabulous grip, magic engine, OK brakes, ride quality - not for my back, for raw pace and practicality great value.
Cayman R – only demonstrator available was a PDK 'R' in that strange metallic frog green - well quick enough, great brakes appalling ride quality – on poor B roads and smaller C roads with ripples and pot holes (you know the ones you actually want to use without speed cameras hiding everywhere) it was a joke – also very boomy and noisy, in my view just a track car – a standard 'S' with PASM may be OK.
911 Carrera S - drove manual and PDK – for me 'fun' involves changing gears manually so although PDK very clever not for me - (still has that irritating automatic slipping clutch type rev matching if you don't use the flappy paddles), brilliant steering, brakes, traction, gear change, reasonably fast between corners 'hewn from solid' feel to it, practical for every day use, sounds good. Ride quality quite acceptable if PASM button kept in 'normal' mode. Residuals reasonably predictable if you don't buy a new one. Downside – bit too many of them to feel really special.
Evora - have loved the look of this since launch and in the flesh I find the Evora to be the best looking reasonably priced GT car currently available - I really wanted to love it. Drove a normally aspirated standard gear ratio version - brilliant ride, grip, brakes, steering, quick enough if well revved in gears 1 to 3, a bit limp in the rest so CR ratios desirable. Gearchange OK if not rushed. Build quality superficially good – but looking at a selection of interiors in PH classifieds pictures, and the stock at the dealer I attended, the seat/ door and dash leather doesn't look like it will reflect a £50 -£70k new price tag in a couple of years. Biggest concern is residuals – used prices (as advertised) vary dramatically and represent significant drops from new for low mileage cars.
Elise – have always loved the shape, size and simplicity of the S2/S3, drove a 1.6 S3, great handling, brakes grip, steering, not very quick between corners, ride quality very good. That was OK, probably the SC would suit me except for........it needed a jump start before the test – this is a less than 10k miles 2011 car FFS! Then there was the gearchange , it would not select 2nd when cold, was mega stiff between gears and across the gate, had a 'false neutral' when attempting to select 4th. The charming and knowledgable (lady!) sales person assured me 'they are all like this' - surely not?
Audi TT RS – bit of a wild card I didn't know it existed but spotted it by chance in an EVO test, drove a nice meteor grey one with Audi Magnetic ride (copy of PASM really). Magic engine - genuine 80's Quattro Sport sound track, mega grip, fast between corners, good brakes, Audi build quality, but heavy lifeless steering and the worst crime - the brake pedal is too high compared to the throttle so fluidly moving between gas and brakes just impossible.
Decision – had to be the Carrera in the end (should be picking up a 12 month old example this Saturday -yipee!) - but I really wanted it to be the Evora – maybe in a couple of years when the 2012 model has been around...........
All the above just my opinion and what suits me so if any one is interested please shoot down my observations!
Thanks for ALL the posts on this topic - extremely interesting, my intention as with all posts on this type of forum, was to impart and receive information and encourage discussion (that bit certainly worked!). It's a shame that the more aggressive posters didn't take the post in the way it was intended, but just to expand on some of the points raised;
I agree that if I had a bit more time to spend I could have tested an Elise SC with an acceptable gearchange which may have have persuaded me - point well made. The 'anti' posters seen to have branded me as a German loving Lotus hater - you must have missed my mention of owning an Elite 501 many years ago (Chapman was still alive then you know!) - at that time I bought the car just on 'heart' and didn't consider residuals, had I not been a fairly handy engineer I reckon the ongoing battle (at dealer prices) to keep it mobile would have cost me about 50% of its purchase price - however I did keep it mobile and loved driving it. I know the current Lotus warranty would protect me for a couple of years and quality is loads better now - but I guess you see what I mean.
"Ozzie" said '...unless he's happier to be one of the anonymous masses in a diesel 3-series. Which, let's face it, appears to be the case.... ' Not guilty I think, my petrolhead career includes owning and driving and engineering the following: Ford Anglia, Mk1 Cortina, Mk1 Escort Mexico, Mk2 Escort RS1800, Elite 501, Triumph 1300 (yes really - a temporary fill in while Lotus was being repaired following failed Ari Vatenen impersonation in the snow!), Mk2 Escort Estate, 205 GTI, Citroen BX 16valve, Pug 405 Mi16, Pug 106 GTI, Pug 306 turbo D, Pug 306 GTI, Type e46 330D, Citroen Xantia, Type e90 330d, 997 Carrera S, Mallock Mk18 sports racer, Phantom sports racer, my own design and built sports racer,Dallara F399 single seater, Mallock Mk27 sports racer, Reynard F903 single seater, Dallara F301 single seater. I reckon that qualifies for a few unofficial petrolhead points!
I agree that if I had a bit more time to spend I could have tested an Elise SC with an acceptable gearchange which may have have persuaded me - point well made. The 'anti' posters seen to have branded me as a German loving Lotus hater - you must have missed my mention of owning an Elite 501 many years ago (Chapman was still alive then you know!) - at that time I bought the car just on 'heart' and didn't consider residuals, had I not been a fairly handy engineer I reckon the ongoing battle (at dealer prices) to keep it mobile would have cost me about 50% of its purchase price - however I did keep it mobile and loved driving it. I know the current Lotus warranty would protect me for a couple of years and quality is loads better now - but I guess you see what I mean.
"Ozzie" said '...unless he's happier to be one of the anonymous masses in a diesel 3-series. Which, let's face it, appears to be the case.... ' Not guilty I think, my petrolhead career includes owning and driving and engineering the following: Ford Anglia, Mk1 Cortina, Mk1 Escort Mexico, Mk2 Escort RS1800, Elite 501, Triumph 1300 (yes really - a temporary fill in while Lotus was being repaired following failed Ari Vatenen impersonation in the snow!), Mk2 Escort Estate, 205 GTI, Citroen BX 16valve, Pug 405 Mi16, Pug 106 GTI, Pug 306 turbo D, Pug 306 GTI, Type e46 330D, Citroen Xantia, Type e90 330d, 997 Carrera S, Mallock Mk18 sports racer, Phantom sports racer, my own design and built sports racer,Dallara F399 single seater, Mallock Mk27 sports racer, Reynard F903 single seater, Dallara F301 single seater. I reckon that qualifies for a few unofficial petrolhead points!
You are right, some of the cars I have owned and driven were pretty shoddy, but sometimes interesting road cars have had to be sacrificed to fund repairs/modifications/sets of tyres/new engines for racing and rally cars. I may have been wrong to use the term 'petrolhead' but couldn't think of another concise word or phrase to explain my enthusiam for cars in general and driving some of them reasonably quickly. If 'petrolhead' is a generic term to describe people who 'love' or are passionate about cars and if you accept that the ultimate 'car' is a single seater racing car, then I humbly suggest that I may just qualify for a low level of 'petrolheadedness'
I think you meant 'sarcastic' - but I don't think he was, by the way when did you buy your first Lotus 'Pits', sometime after I bought mine I suspect? Also if you know a little bit about the history of the great marque that is Lotus, you will also know that at the time that an Elite 501 was a new car its main 'rival' was touted as the Porsche 924 and most of the motoring press at the time agreed that whilst the Lotus was the better drive the Porsche was the sensible buy - I bought the Lotus. Life is all about a balanced approach don't you think?
The Pits - you are right I missed the wink must get some new specs and having read some of 'raize's' other posts I can see they are in a similar vein. I can see you are a serious Lotus fan and that's brilliant but you also seem to think that it is acceptable for the British buying public to subsidise ailing British companies. If the Elise or Evora had not left me with a few serious doubts about quality and future value (Evora not Elise), I would have bought one in preference to the 911, however as I have explained honestly I think, I have already subsidised Lotus development once in my life so don't intend to do so at this time. If a British investor (or preferably someone like TATA Motors) would but Lotus and provide a serious devlopment budget, then new models would then hopefully be launched fully developed like the 2012 Evora, and many people would be queing to buy and enjoy these excellent cars.
I would point out that in the last 20 or so years I have spent in excess of £200,000 with British engineering companies associated with the British motorsport industry because they provide some of the best products and services in the world. So do I have a problem 'being a Porsche man', I don't think so!
I would point out that in the last 20 or so years I have spent in excess of £200,000 with British engineering companies associated with the British motorsport industry because they provide some of the best products and services in the world. So do I have a problem 'being a Porsche man', I don't think so!
Time will tell on the 'residuals' argument - you may turn out to be correct - I like your comment 'Ironic too that your balanced approach has led you to owning a car with a big engine located behind the rear axle!' -well said! It will be interesting to find out how to avoid backing it into a hedge - in the interests of balance I will report back on what it is like to own and drive, and I will do it honestly, whether it has good or bad points - if it has bad points (it will have some as all road cars are a compromise), I'll take great delight in posting my comments on the Porsche forum - hope you'll enjoy that 'Pits'
Cheers.
Cheers.
A couple of points to make.......I am definately NOT a Porsche salesman just an early retired software engineer who is using some (quite a lot!) of his hard earned to buy another toy. I agree with the poster on the 'provocative' topic title, it would have been better to call it 'why I bought a 911' and not so obviously focus on the Lotus content, but in defence having followed the Evora thread it did seem fairly relevant at the time. Looking back it is all a matter of confidence when you are spending a serious wad of cash - previously my max spend for a road car has been around 25k so I guess paying considerably more does subconciously make you a little more circumspect. I genuinely admire people who can buy stuff at this sort of value (with their own cash) purely on 'heart' rather than 'head' which is the way I've always bought race cars which are as you know money pits a bit like boats!
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