Power, Now vs Then vs Reality

[J4CKO]

Was just reading the Maserati thread, got me thinking

Someone bemoaned the Maseratis lack of power "Just 375 BHP", a piffling amount apparently from an engine of that specification, barely enough for it to get out of its own way

It has to be looked at in the context of 12 years ago, things have changed and 375 bhp isnt that powerful these days, I think a lot of people just play Top Trumps and read magazines, ok SUV's come with 500 bhp plus, as do Mercs, BMW's and Audi's, 375 bhp is sort of sub AMG/M Power levels of power for high end diesels and petrols but these generally now have 4wd and or ESP and weigh two tonnes plus. It kind of reminds me of how modern Fighter planes are unflyable by a pilot without the electronics being in the middle to stabilise the aircraft and interpret the pilots inputs, rather than a mechanical connection.


Cars these days are set up for driveability, economy and safety. Modern cars are faster, no doubt but to some extent they are like a de-clawed, tamed and sanitised version of what went before, Wags drive Cayenne Turbo's with 500 bhp with no issue day in day out, anyone can get in pretty much any high end car and if they dont piss about with the ESP controls it wont spit them off the road but put them in the Maserati, a Cerbera or a Lotus Carlton and lets see how far they get if they take liberties with the throttle when its damp and cold, lets hear their opinion on whether it is not much power after 40 fast miles, obviously after they have spoken to their mummies first I am no driving god and am having to re-learn rwd and am not ashamed to say 208 bhp is plenty for me at the moment.

I think we get a bit blase about power now, suspect people who do go from a modern, powerful car to an older one are in for some potential shocks, I am driving a 944 S2 after a Saab with another 40 bhp, have to say the Saab was easy to drive and you could take (relative) liberties being FWD and having all the electronics but am quite wary of this even though they dont have that bad a reputation (a good Reputation doesnt always keep you out of hedges), also in the PH scheme of things its slow but I think it is quick enough, I got to 80 odd mph down a country road plenty quick enough which was too quick so it makes me wonder where and how fast some of those who say 200/300 bhp isnt much are driving and how fast they are going !

I have decided I dont care how much power someone else has or how fast they can go as long as I am enjoying my driving, if not, thats when I will get another car.

[J4CKO]

I think over the last 10/15 years, power outputs have been spiralling and more has always equalled better as there had been a shortage of bhp for most people, these days its easy to put yourself in a 400/500 bhp car for not a lot of money, especially if you can fuel and insure it, I think more people will catch on that actually to enjoy driving it isnt always more = better and that it isnt all about straight line acceleration, it is a nice feeling but only part of the equation, if it were the be all and end all the Audi RS6 with a remap to 700 bhp would be the best selling car and nobody would mention the old F40 because the Veyron is faster.

[J4CKO]

rottie102 said:

Rawwr said:

As I just posted on another thread: I'd rather drive a 200bhp car 90% than a 400bhp car at 50%.

Just because it sounds cool on PH?
I don't understand why would anyone want to limit the horsepower. The throttle doesn't work 0/1. If the car is driveable (as in doesn't require triple plate clutch, drag gearbox etc) I'm more than happy to drive a 1000hp car at 20%, just so I can use ALL THE POWER three times a year.

So, you would rarely hear the engine get past a couple of thousand rpm, never really get the feeling of using getting the best from it on the off chance of being able to accelerate to 200 mph quickly a few times a year ?

[J4CKO]

Alex said:

kambites said:

I rarely have problems overtaking with my measly 200bhp/tonne.

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

I always think most "fun" drivers cars start from 100 bhp/tonne, the smaller hot hatchbacks but agree 200 bhp is where it is plenty interesting enough for most people as long as it comes as part of a package, those that arent in it for bragging rights or showing off with straight line performance to passengers. Think there seems to be a tendency for some on here to tell those with less impressive wheels that they cant possibly be enjoying their driving.

When our Fiat 500 works I quite enjoy that, even with only 20 bhp, another ten and it would be spot on

[J4CKO]

MC Bodge said:

People love to portray an image to make them appear further up the desirability/success hierarchy. If this image can be bought with credit, without the need for talent and many years of practice, even better.


The world of bikes is an even dafter.

~200bhp in a small bike can be bought for (relatively)not a lot of dosh, so people buy them. Fast as f**k.

Most people can't ride for toffee(I'm no riding god either, I can ride for a small fudge or Milky Way on a good day) and, even in the hands of a riding genius, the performance is mostly unsuitable for the roads.

Even a bike with a mere 80bhp is fairly fast by most standards.

Yep, I remember reading all the mags and deciding what to get, a mate let me ride his early CBR 600 when I passed my CBT as a reward, it was dead easy to ride, I quickly got confident, piece of piss, then I wound the throttle open to about half and the bloody thing took off like nothing I had ever experienced, thought I was going to let go, so I just came right off the throttle, the front end dove down and I pootled it back to him hyperventilating a little

[J4CKO]

redgriff500 said:

Alex said:

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

Agreed.

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Depends whether you care about being "beaten", it isnt a race and whether someone in a repmobile is fast than me I dont care as I have realised how little it matters, my manhood, self worth and mood arent based on whether I am "bested" or whether I am faster than someone else, I generally dont have much need to arrive somewhere a few seconds before someone else. Ok a little good natured "synchonised acceleration" is fun with a like minded petrolhead is fun, stop for a chat about overhead cams and injectors but usually it is someone wanting to beat you at all costs to make a point and to try and make you look inferior.

Driving is all about the sensations, the feedback, the sounds, the smells, the tactile side and should be you, a car and the road, nobody else involved, if you are enjoying it, go with it, take it on face value and dont worry about the next car, more power or whatever as those moments are fleeting and some penis with a caravan, horse box or Honda Jazz will ineviatably make a big deal about pulling out in front of you or angry man in his mega diesel will attach himself to your rear bumper when he sees an opportunity to "beat you", I find having someone else involved when driving spiritedly just spoils it most of the time.

[J4CKO]

redgriff500 said:

J4CKO said:

redgriff500 said:

Alex said:

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

Agreed.

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Depends whether you care about being "beaten", it isnt a race and whether someone in a repmobile is fast than me I dont care as I have realised how little it matters, my manhood, self worth and mood arent based on whether I am "bested" or whether I am faster than someone else, I generally dont have much need to arrive somewhere a few seconds before someone else. Ok a little good natured "synchonised acceleration" is fun with a like minded petrolhead is fun, stop for a chat about overhead cams and injectors but usually it is someone wanting to beat you at all costs to make a point and to try and make you look inferior.

Driving is all about the sensations, the feedback, the sounds, the smells, the tactile side and should be you, a car and the road, nobody else involved, if you are enjoying it, go with it, take it on face value and dont worry about the next car, more power or whatever as those moments are fleeting and some penis with a caravan, horse box or Honda Jazz will ineviatably make a big deal about pulling out in front of you or angry man in his mega diesel will attach himself to your rear bumper when he sees an opportunity to "beat you", I find having someone else involved when driving spiritedly just spoils it most of the time.

Now read the last part of my sentence you quoted.

I don't care if someone beats me away from the lights as long as they keep that speed going and don't slow down for the bends.

Unfortunately I'd estimate I've only met 10 such drivers in 20+ years of driving.

Yes, agreed, probably shoudlnt have quoted you there, was more of a general point than aimed at you, and I meandered a bit off the point.

[J4CKO]

This isnt one for enthusiastic drivers, its a behaviour bond for new drivers and for those who just get on with it, inside the speed limits and feel sick if subjected to any G forces.

[J4CKO]

Yes, I think I need to be lent a greater than 400 bhp car for a week and then report back with my findings, I will do this for free because thats the kind of guy I am.

Sure it would be fun, but whether it is worth the extra cost and risk to licence, hmm, reamin to be convinced.

I drove a Ferrari 360 on an experience day, very nice but didnt feel that astoundingly rapid, 996 Turbo was more my cup of tea but the electronics did reign it in very abruptly.

I think what makes cars feel faster is the surroundings, anyone can hoof a car down an empty dual carriageway but hedges and stuff make it feel like you are travelling a lot faster, as does it being dark I find.

[J4CKO]

2thumbs said:

wolves_wanderer said:

2thumbs said:

I generally find lower hp cars a little frustrating When trying to get a strait line acceleration fix. (I love acceleration) my 320bhp car doesn't always deliver.
conversely, my old 220bhp Mk1 Astra turbo used to deliver by the bucket load, but It didn't weigh much.

Probably more to do with the fact it was a turbo, the acceleration is more linear with NA so doesn't feel as fast. My current car doesn't feel as fast as my Leon used to but it is quicker.

Yes very true. There's no kick in the back with an N/A engine. I do miss it

My 944 provides a good shove, feels as quick as the Saab did with 250 bhp and more "real" if you know what I mean, its all about low down torque, however its delivered, think that is why large capacity petrol owners and diesel turbo owners sometimes feel a bit short changed if they go for high rev screamers like Vtecs, they miss the low down even if they enjoy the top end power, as less face it that is what gets used more of the time.

[J4CKO]

RobCrezz said:

2thumbs said:

RobCrezz said:

2thumbs said:

Good point. I miss my 328 for that exact reason, it had a good dose of low down grunt, my m3 hasn't any.

I think its how your body perceives it. Im pretty sure a M3 has more low down grunt than the 328i.

Strange but true. Yo have to work harder with the m3, It's quite lethargic & only really starts to sing when you push it. the 328 pulled effortlessly from standstill.

Edited by 2thumbs on Friday 10th February 14:45

I cant understand that. I know the M3 requires revs to get the best out of it, but I would still imagine it to make more low down torque with an extra 400cc (or extra 200cc in the case of the pre evo E36).

I think this is one of those situation where its not a win/win, it isn't always the case when you go up an engine, or a couple of engines that the more powerful one is preferable in every eventuality, like the perennial Golf 8V vs 16 valve debate.

[J4CKO]

Power is irrelevant, according to my drive back from Macclesfield to Wilmslow, the Civic in front was driven so badly overtaking would have been mental, eventually turned right with no indicator after spending 2 miles slowing down for oncoming cars to 20 mph in an NSL.