Oh No Not Another Cyclist Rant
Discussion
Here we go. Bit of a long one I'm afraid.
I commute across South London every day to work. In that, I come across my fair share of idiocy, lunacy, people on phones while driving, aggression, tail-gating, people not looking what they're doing, speeding, dangerous overtaking, claptrap vehicles, insane minicabs et cetera et cetera yada yada ad infinitum.
One learns fairly quickly to have patience, to be tolerant, and to have nineteen pairs of eyes constantly looking around you.
South London also has its fair share of cyclists, who also come in all stripes.
I drive with great awareness for both motorcyclists and cyclists. If things go wrong - regardless of who is at fault - it is the one on two wheels who will have the broken bones or broken neck, not me in my safe metal shell. I give plenty of room, never overtake unless I have plenty of time and space to do so, and generally allow them as much expediency as is reasonable.
People may disagree with me on the following general point; I am also a believer that traffic systems are designed for cars, naturally so, and are in certain places and situations inherently dangerous for cyclists. The two frequently do not mix well together, as we well know from threads here on PH, and, as above, it is the cyclist who will always come off worst. Thus, I do not bemoan cyclists going through red lights when safe to do so, or ignoring other rules which may endanger them. Anything to keep out of harms way, so long as they accept that in doing so any risk is entirely theirs.
And that last point brings me to this morning.
Part of my commute takes me up the huge hill that is Crystal Palace. I turn right out of a normal give way junction onto a hillclimb toward the Palace at the top. It's a busy junction in the mornings. The majority of the traffic coming down the hill turns left into the road I am pulling out of. It is normal for there to be three or four cars slowing, indicators on to turn left, allowing you to pull out of the junction to turn right up the hill.
And so it was this morning, I'm looking up the hill for traffic coming down, there are three or four cars indicating left into the road at which I am waiting. I can see their indicators, there is no traffic from the left, so I pull out turning right up the hill.
Next thing I know there's a cyclist who came from nowhere, that I entirely did not see, hairing down the hill at speed overtaking the three or four cars who were indicating to turn into the road I was pulling out of. As he was overtaking, he was largely hidden from my view by those cars. I'm guessing he must have seen me however, and anticipated that I'd not see him, or anticipated that I'd ignore him, as he managed to slow and just go around the back of my car as I pulled away. He mouthed a load of abuse at me as he did so, but my window was up so didn't hear a word of it. Had he hit me at the speed he was going, even after slowing as he had, he would have ended up a fairly messy pulp of mashed up human on the tarmac.
By the normal rules of the road, taking the primary position, the cyclist should be in traffic, waiting behind the slowing cars turning left into the road in which I was waiting. I would be fine to pull out as I did, the road being clear.
If it was a car that had pulled off that overtake, I would be right to be furious, and had he collided, he'd be entirely at fault.
And that's why I stress the point above, that I am all for a cyclist ignoring the normal rules of the road, so long as they accept that risk. What I do not expect, and why this idiot annoyed me this morning, is for them to get annoyed at other road users when their rule-breaking catches them out. Like I say, the risk is theirs, and I'm happy for them to take and accept that risk, but don't f
king well abuse me when I'm obeying the rules of the road and that risk does not pay off.
I commute across South London every day to work. In that, I come across my fair share of idiocy, lunacy, people on phones while driving, aggression, tail-gating, people not looking what they're doing, speeding, dangerous overtaking, claptrap vehicles, insane minicabs et cetera et cetera yada yada ad infinitum.
One learns fairly quickly to have patience, to be tolerant, and to have nineteen pairs of eyes constantly looking around you.
South London also has its fair share of cyclists, who also come in all stripes.
I drive with great awareness for both motorcyclists and cyclists. If things go wrong - regardless of who is at fault - it is the one on two wheels who will have the broken bones or broken neck, not me in my safe metal shell. I give plenty of room, never overtake unless I have plenty of time and space to do so, and generally allow them as much expediency as is reasonable.
People may disagree with me on the following general point; I am also a believer that traffic systems are designed for cars, naturally so, and are in certain places and situations inherently dangerous for cyclists. The two frequently do not mix well together, as we well know from threads here on PH, and, as above, it is the cyclist who will always come off worst. Thus, I do not bemoan cyclists going through red lights when safe to do so, or ignoring other rules which may endanger them. Anything to keep out of harms way, so long as they accept that in doing so any risk is entirely theirs.
And that last point brings me to this morning.
Part of my commute takes me up the huge hill that is Crystal Palace. I turn right out of a normal give way junction onto a hillclimb toward the Palace at the top. It's a busy junction in the mornings. The majority of the traffic coming down the hill turns left into the road I am pulling out of. It is normal for there to be three or four cars slowing, indicators on to turn left, allowing you to pull out of the junction to turn right up the hill.
And so it was this morning, I'm looking up the hill for traffic coming down, there are three or four cars indicating left into the road at which I am waiting. I can see their indicators, there is no traffic from the left, so I pull out turning right up the hill.
Next thing I know there's a cyclist who came from nowhere, that I entirely did not see, hairing down the hill at speed overtaking the three or four cars who were indicating to turn into the road I was pulling out of. As he was overtaking, he was largely hidden from my view by those cars. I'm guessing he must have seen me however, and anticipated that I'd not see him, or anticipated that I'd ignore him, as he managed to slow and just go around the back of my car as I pulled away. He mouthed a load of abuse at me as he did so, but my window was up so didn't hear a word of it. Had he hit me at the speed he was going, even after slowing as he had, he would have ended up a fairly messy pulp of mashed up human on the tarmac.
By the normal rules of the road, taking the primary position, the cyclist should be in traffic, waiting behind the slowing cars turning left into the road in which I was waiting. I would be fine to pull out as I did, the road being clear.
If it was a car that had pulled off that overtake, I would be right to be furious, and had he collided, he'd be entirely at fault.
And that's why I stress the point above, that I am all for a cyclist ignoring the normal rules of the road, so long as they accept that risk. What I do not expect, and why this idiot annoyed me this morning, is for them to get annoyed at other road users when their rule-breaking catches them out. Like I say, the risk is theirs, and I'm happy for them to take and accept that risk, but don't f
king well abuse me when I'm obeying the rules of the road and that risk does not pay off.Edited by Timbola on Thursday 16th May 09:33
Ok. Thanks for these responses.
It's gotten me thinking.
I pulled out onto, what was to my eye, an entirely clear road. Is that defensible?
Had he hit me, and sued me for ending up in a wheelchair, and this went to court, would I be in the wrong?
Is it considered acceptable to overtake at a junction, as I described?
Genuinely not so sure about my position now.
It's gotten me thinking.
I pulled out onto, what was to my eye, an entirely clear road. Is that defensible?
Had he hit me, and sued me for ending up in a wheelchair, and this went to court, would I be in the wrong?
Is it considered acceptable to overtake at a junction, as I described?
Genuinely not so sure about my position now.
oyster said:
OP I'm going to guess that you were pulling out of Kingswood Drive onto College Road? I used to live near there and commuted by cycle down that hill every single day for 5 years.
If we are talking about the same road then:
1. 90%+ of the cars turn left into the road your were turning right from as straight ahead only goes to the Dulwich College tollgate.
2. The cars turning left have to do so into quite a tight turning and hence often swing out to the right in order to smooth out the turn.
3. There are speed bumps in the road that the cyclist would have to avoid - they could pass to the left of them but that would be suicidal as it would put them into the side of the cars turning left.
4. It's a steep hill, on a hybrid bike I would easily hit 30mph passing the junction you were pulling out of.
5. As a result of the reduced visibility I would anticipate if cars were going to pull out and act accordingly. I also often stood up on the bike to make my helmet light visible above cars.
6. I used to have a near collision at that junction perhaps every 2 weeks - every single time, both myself and car driver had taken avoiding action and each and every single time the driver had apologised for pulling out on me.
7. A cyclist or motorcyclist comes down that hill probably every 20 seconds or so in rush hour. If you've used that road before then you should have anticipated that cyclists and motorcyclists may be passing and again drive accordingly.
To summarise, you need to be more aware of your surroundings. Cyclists are in some danger at that junction, but only because drivers (like you) ignored their right of way.
Oyster - you are spot on.If we are talking about the same road then:
1. 90%+ of the cars turn left into the road your were turning right from as straight ahead only goes to the Dulwich College tollgate.
2. The cars turning left have to do so into quite a tight turning and hence often swing out to the right in order to smooth out the turn.
3. There are speed bumps in the road that the cyclist would have to avoid - they could pass to the left of them but that would be suicidal as it would put them into the side of the cars turning left.
4. It's a steep hill, on a hybrid bike I would easily hit 30mph passing the junction you were pulling out of.
5. As a result of the reduced visibility I would anticipate if cars were going to pull out and act accordingly. I also often stood up on the bike to make my helmet light visible above cars.
6. I used to have a near collision at that junction perhaps every 2 weeks - every single time, both myself and car driver had taken avoiding action and each and every single time the driver had apologised for pulling out on me.
7. A cyclist or motorcyclist comes down that hill probably every 20 seconds or so in rush hour. If you've used that road before then you should have anticipated that cyclists and motorcyclists may be passing and again drive accordingly.
To summarise, you need to be more aware of your surroundings. Cyclists are in some danger at that junction, but only because drivers (like you) ignored their right of way.
It is indeed that junction. And it's a junction I've used most weekday mornings for several months now.
Thanks for the cyclist's POV coming down that hill. It's not a hill I've cycled down myself.
Hindsight is 20/20. I need more caution at that junction.
Consider the thread re-titled 'A Lesson Learned'.
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