shall i get some rusty arches repaired or not?

[danlightbulb]

Hi all,

For those who remember my previous posts may recall I bought myself a 2003 Honda Accord before xmas. It had some rust spotting on the arches at the time, and through inexperience I didn't think it was a big problem. Kicked myself a little after, as I checked everything else really thoroughly, had a long test drive, and thought it was good for the money (£1400). Chalk this one up for future reference.

Anyway, the car does indeed run and drive lovely, and aside from the rust in this one location is really in otherwise perfect condition. So I'm not sure what to do about this rust. I contacted a guy locally and after seeing some photo's has quoted £200 per side for a repair. I know this won't solve the root cause, but what I don't know is how long it would last after. I have arranged to drive and see him tomorrow so he can have a proper look up close.

So I'm not sure what to do. I know its an old car and maybe I should just put that £400 in the bank and when the car is bad enough to fail its MOT then I either patch it then or swap it (presumably for scrap money). What I don't know is whether that is 1 year away or 3. The rust is already sharp edged on the underside of the arch.

Anyone with experience of old cars, what are my options please?

What would a full repair do, compared to a patch job for an MOT pass? Will it pass the MOT if I just cover the area with duct tape(!). Should I save my £400 and let it fall apart, or try and mitigate the spread now?

Thanks


The other side is similar.

[danlightbulb]

Brigand said:

Depending on how you feel about the car, could it be worth doing yourself?

I've done plenty of similar repairs in the past for the cost of some sandpaper, rust curing stuff, primer, paint and lacquer. If the car is your Pride & Joy and everything has to be perfect then a DIY repair probably isn't the best idea, but if you're just looking to get it solved and are happy with a reasonable repair (all comes down to your skill with the paint, how well you've prepped the area, match of the paint etc) then I'd say a DIY attempt was worth it.

I am very tempted to try, however what concerns me is when I start stripping it back, sanding and grinding, that most of the rusty bit just disintegrates on me and Im left with a zig zag of sharp edged metal. Ps I cannot weld, so that option is out as a DIY.

[danlightbulb]

Quhet said:

Is it just the wheel arches that are rusty? If so and it's just cosmetic, I'd be tempted to leave it. I guess you're not going to keep the car more than a couple of years at that price, not really worth spending £400 on IMO. Save that for anything else that could go wrong

Yep, just the rear arches on both sides. Its cosmetic rather than structural (although I'm informed that it will be coming from the inside out and so will be much worse than it initially appears on the surface). As you see from the pictures I have some jagged edges appearing.

Can anyone with MOT knowledge tell me at what point cosmetic rust becomes a fail?

[danlightbulb]

Gunk said:

A DIY repair with rust inhibitor filler and rattle can will look crap and the rust will soon come through again, I'd either buy a couple of wheel arch repair kits and have it fixed properly or just leave it alone.

I'm in the process of asking some breakers whether I can get the rear panels off another car. No luck yet. I don't think direct wheel arches are available for this model. New panels would cost me in the region of £800 for both sides. Someone previously linked me to some cheap 'over arches' which kind of stick on top of the existing arches, but its not a great solution really.

Regarding keeping the car, I will try and keep it as long as I can. If it needs no mechanical repairs and/or only minor repairs at MOT time then why ditch.

[danlightbulb]

This is the other side.

GT6 Jonsey said:

I come from a classic car background so correct me if I am wrong, Looking at the photo I would say those arches are 2-3 years way from being an issue at mot time. If you can live with the look of the arches and not keeping the car long term I would just leave it as is. Some rust inhibitor, a dollop of filler and a blow over with a rattle can would be the DIY option and much cheaper than your quote.

I could live with it, depending on how fast it gets really bad. But, if I was to get rid of the car in 3 years say, then I would still want something back for it (be able to sell it). So I want to think about how best to plan long term for the issue at resale as well.

Edited by danlightbulb on Saturday 9th January 21:31

[danlightbulb]

I understand how to do it, having watching several videos, when there is a hole surrounded by an edge. But how do you fill when there is no edge left? I.e on the underside of the sill the edge itself is retreating.

[danlightbulb]

swisstoni said:

Sell it and start again before it looks worse.
A cosmetic repair wont last and a 'proper' repair is not worth doing

I think if I tried to sell it now with the rust I'd lose too much on it in the short space of time I've had it. Plus I really like the car.

[danlightbulb]

A proper fix (i.e brand new panels) is out of the question, it would cost thousands.

I believe from what you guys have said that a quick fix is not worth the money either as it will last months at best.

What I don't know is whether there is an intermediate option?


Being sensible I should probably spend the minimum possible, as something could break on the car tomorrow and I'd have thrown money away on it.

Kind of torn between the desire to have it done and the reluctance to invest in an already 12 year old car. Ideally though, I'd still like to stop it getting any worse if possible, even if I can't cheaply make it perfect again.

[danlightbulb]

supersarbs said:

Grind back, treat the rust, rebuild with fibreglass mat, filler and paint.

Did the same on my s2000 3 years ago. Buyer only recent needed a further fix.

Did you keep any photos during the work?

[danlightbulb]

daemon said:

The problem with Option 1, and likely with option 2 is that that rust is coming through from the inside, so matter what you do from the outside, there'll end up pinholes through to the inside which could come through in as little as a week or two.

I would say getting those arches cut out and replaced with new metal would work out significantly more expensive that replacing the whole wing - bearing in mind how much from the rear of the wing you'd have to remove (and the bumper) to get clear access.

Given you can buy a new pattern fit one for £50 - £60, i'd either be replacing the wings with new ones OR getting second hand ones the same colour if i could.

No pattern arches available for this car.

I have just been to see a guy. He seemed very knowledgeable, very genuine, and very confident that his price of £200 per side would do a very good job of it. He will cut out the bad sections and reform the arch with new sheet metal, then weld it back in. If the internal arch is bad too he will cut out sections of that and remake those in new metal. He will re-weld the seam between the inner and outer skin and seal the gap. All followed by a respray and blend in to whole rear quarter panel and the rear doors.

Struggling to decide what to do. The longer I leave it the worse it will get, and possibly very fast.

[danlightbulb]

steveo3002 said:

have you seen his work ? if other jobs looks great then thats a good price if he does what he says

I have seen photos of his other work yes. I found out about him via a facebook car sales group. Only a small indy, but I was impressed by the guy, not just his knowledge but his professional manner as well.

[danlightbulb]

egor110 said:

If he has to do inner arches that'll be extra?

Even if the inner arch isn't bad they rust from the inside out so a few years and you'll be back to square 1, either do it properly or just drive it until it fails the mot then decide.

If by doing it properly you mean replacing the whole panel and inner arch, then that would be very expensive. There was a post over on Honda Karma forums from a guy who did this. Here is a pic as the extent of the job:




The guys whose car this is said the work cost over £2500, but that was at main dealer prices under warranty so slightly different situation.

The inside of the arch is protected by an arch liner, so the bit where it all starts is on the seam at the very bottom of the arch. Then it creeps up the metal. The top bit of the arch should be absolutely fine, as should be the outer skin away from the seam contact point. That was the view of the guy I saw today.

Edited by danlightbulb on Sunday 10th January 19:14

[danlightbulb]

daemon said:

danlightbulb said:

No pattern arches available for this car.

Is this not them?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-ACCORD-1998-2003-F...

No, mine is a 2003 onwards gen 7. The 98-03 was a gen 6. Those are front arches also.


It is disappointing that there aren't any available. What were Honda thinking designing it the way they did.

[danlightbulb]

daemon said:

Ah right sorry, yours are rears and wrong gen

If your confident of that blokes work then i'd probably get it done.

Thanks for searching anyway

I've got a choice to make.

Given that I paid £1400 for the car (reasonable I thought - there are none cheaper for sale at the moment), then if tried to sell it now with the rust the way it is what could I expect to get? What if I allowed it to get worse and resell it in 2 years? What if I fix the rot and resell it in 2 years before it comes back too bad?

I think if it means that I will sell the car again in two to three years without having to take scrap value, it would be worth the repair.

[danlightbulb]

mrtwisty said:

Can you juggle? No? Watch some videos, then give it a go.

The difference being with bodywork repairs, once you've 'dropped the balls' you're a bit buggered.



(I bloody hate doing bodywork!)

Lol I can juggle. I get your point though - what I meant was I understand the method - putting it into practise entirely different thing and I agree with you. I am tempted to give it a go myself, but if it starts to fall apart on me Im not equipped to deal with that.

battered said:

2 years is a long time in shedland. It's a £1400 car, I wouldn't feel too aggrieved about having to do this every 2 years. 20,000 miles, maybe more, further down the road, and it hands you a chunky bill for the MoT, maybe the clutch is starting to slip a bit, the oil consumption's higher than it used to be, that gearbox is a bit notchy into 2nd and 3rd and the suspension's getting sloppy, so it goes on and maybe this one has gone far enough. We've all been there, but either way a rusty wheelarch is the least of your worries.

You've described my old car! I spent loads on it just keeping it running, and until I looked back I didn't realise how all those small(ish) jobs added up over the years. I guess the trick is knowing when to let go. Funny thing is I wouldn't be bothered if it was a dent, or a bit of mismatched paint. Its the fact the rust will get worse that is making me want to mitigate it now.

[danlightbulb]

SuperHangOn said:

Whether its worth it depends what state the rest of the car is in.

Well I think very good personally. But then I did buy a car with rusty arches so what do I know.

If in 3 years the car has cost me nothing in repairs and sailed through its MOT's, but the rust has climbed halfway up the panel, I'll probably wish I'd had it done when I had a better opportunity.

[danlightbulb]

From what I have read, it is only the rear arches that are a problem on this generation (gen 7). Its poor design on Honda's part.

[danlightbulb]

designforlife said:

if its a keeper, get it done properly...but don't be tempted to leave it....previous owner decided to leave the arch on mine, and its turned into a 500 quid repair job (admittedly having to have a new arch stitched in as my stupid car is too rare to source a rear quarter for).

Thanks for this pic. I note the bubbling further up the arch and also the wavyness of the undersill of the arch where presumably moisture has got in, frozen, and expanded the metal. Do you have the pic after repair?

[danlightbulb]

moustache said:

I am in exactly the same predicament, on a similarly priced car. As it's in banger territory, I am unsure whether to bother, as it might suddenly become worthless through a couple of faults.

I love the car but could buy another easily and cheaply so wonder whether to bother. Chances are i'll procrastinate and it'll be too late!

Lets see a pic then. Show us your rusty arches ooh yeah...