Is diesel a dead end as a technology?
Discussion
I was chatting to a tech in the trade about diesels a couple of weeks ago, and was horrified at what they were saying about the costs of injectors and pumps. Some of the newer ones - as used by VAG and BMW are circa 1k EACH!!!! and as yet are not refurbishable. Some of the pumps being used are £2k new, and that ignores the massive labour cost to extract and replace the unit.
Even when looking at exchange/refurb injectors, the costs mentioned were several hundred pounds per injector; pumps £500-700.
Will we soon see a period where second hand diesels are effectively worthless when they hit the <£8k value as people will just not want to take the risk.
I have to say I was shocked and horrified at what I was told, as the argument for using the DI and common rails etc is emissions, but it's hardly very ecologically sound if you have to scrap entire car because it becomes BER when a new set of injectors are needed.
Even when looking at exchange/refurb injectors, the costs mentioned were several hundred pounds per injector; pumps £500-700.
Will we soon see a period where second hand diesels are effectively worthless when they hit the <£8k value as people will just not want to take the risk.
I have to say I was shocked and horrified at what I was told, as the argument for using the DI and common rails etc is emissions, but it's hardly very ecologically sound if you have to scrap entire car because it becomes BER when a new set of injectors are needed.
tenohfive said:
Most people won't pay any attention whatsoever to the cost of replacing the injectors though. Maybe PH'er's but most people won't know any different.
Joe Public see's a motor that's cheap, comfortable to drive, economical and powerful enough to punt about in. Injector costs are unlikely to enter most peoples heads when buying the car.
Until someone with a 6 pot beemer calls watchdog and presents their bill for 6k's worth of injectors, and 3k for a new pump and labour to fit.Joe Public see's a motor that's cheap, comfortable to drive, economical and powerful enough to punt about in. Injector costs are unlikely to enter most peoples heads when buying the car.
Max_Torque said:
Within as little as 3 -5 years and even now to a large degree, the type of fuel you are putting in your car is almost irrelevant to the technology under the bonnet!
ALL engines will have high pressure common rail injection systems, with pressure charging and EGR. Current GDI's are now over 200bar (ok, a lot less than current diesels, but once you're over about 50bar the injector technology is pretty much the same) I suspect that as the number of DI cars grows and the fleet ages, many more sources will appear for "aftermarket" recon/supply of fuel system parts etc. (with a corresponding fall in costs to the man in the street!!)
As managing the combustion process becomes even more critical to the fuel economy and emissions systems there is no way that petrol engines will just stagnate on the current technology level.
The latest downsized pressure charged VGT gasoline engines basically make 100nm/litre (min) between 1500rpm and 6500rpm, and the latest pressure charged DI engines pretty much match that except right at the top of the rpm range (approx max 5.5krpm) They are basically the same engine now. (DI have much better combustion systems to improve burn rate and hence high rpm performance, GDI's now have to make high torque at low rpm (to support downspeeding for max FE) so end up having peakl power moved down, the result, they are meeting in the middle)
The only long term advantage of diesel as a fuel is that as we get to the end of the oil reserves, diesel (without the lighter fractions required in gasoline) is easier to refine from "poorer" grade crudes.
Interesting read - thanks.ALL engines will have high pressure common rail injection systems, with pressure charging and EGR. Current GDI's are now over 200bar (ok, a lot less than current diesels, but once you're over about 50bar the injector technology is pretty much the same) I suspect that as the number of DI cars grows and the fleet ages, many more sources will appear for "aftermarket" recon/supply of fuel system parts etc. (with a corresponding fall in costs to the man in the street!!)
As managing the combustion process becomes even more critical to the fuel economy and emissions systems there is no way that petrol engines will just stagnate on the current technology level.
The latest downsized pressure charged VGT gasoline engines basically make 100nm/litre (min) between 1500rpm and 6500rpm, and the latest pressure charged DI engines pretty much match that except right at the top of the rpm range (approx max 5.5krpm) They are basically the same engine now. (DI have much better combustion systems to improve burn rate and hence high rpm performance, GDI's now have to make high torque at low rpm (to support downspeeding for max FE) so end up having peakl power moved down, the result, they are meeting in the middle)
The only long term advantage of diesel as a fuel is that as we get to the end of the oil reserves, diesel (without the lighter fractions required in gasoline) is easier to refine from "poorer" grade crudes.
The thing is though, that the cost of the tech is one thing, but it's the labour costs for changing the failed components that is just daft. To change fuel pump or SCV is a massive job on some diesels. It can't be beyond the designer to streamline this activity to offset some of the material cost - can it?
Welshbeef said:
DrTre said:
The actual chance of all 6 injectors needing replaced at the same time are remote, so it's a moot point.
One or two over the lifetime of a car is more likely, and still an unpalatable cost.
so £6k injectors are highly unlikely. One or two over the lifetime of a car is more likely, and still an unpalatable cost.
I'd say so much of these failures us down tp remapped cars they all claim to give all the extra performance for none of the pain and will last the lifetime pf the car - but if it really were that simple why don't the makers do that out of the factory gate? They don't because reliability decreases if it doesn't then the makers are missing a trick and could shift more higher powered cars with factory warranty.
I would argue that there is quite a reasonable probability that you would have to replace them all in one go given that a) wear rates will be similar across them all and common mode failure is likely given the common system parts they share.
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