12C Buying Price Assistance
Discussion
Hi guys,
My first foray into the world of McLaren (hopefully) and I'm looking to call on the collective knowledge of PH please
I'm cool with the warranty stuff, the depreciation, etc - I just want to have a solid car that I can enjoy.
I've read and heard all the recent blurb about "buyer's market" but unsure what this actually means in my position - what will dealers offer in order to shift a car?
The one I'm looking at is a 62 plate 12C Spider up at 90k. It was a McLaren launch car so has many option boxes ticked (carbon key backs, carbon seat backs, carbon diffuser and splitter, etc) so the spec is pretty desirable I would say. It drives spot on and has all the history to back this up. Appreciate it will have been nailed in the early years of its life, but I am confident any issues would have been discovered and sorted out by now.
The dealer has had it since October last year, had it serviced since, and I can see the price has been revised a few times on eBay - it was up at 96k in February, for example. The car has done reasonable miles between MOTs (~1800) and will be inspected by Thorney Motorsport before sale. The seller is also prepared to use John for the warranty rather than Warrantywise or someone similar (for info - Warrantywise were quoting £2.5k+VAT for 12 months).
We had agreed a deal in principle to trade in my F430 against it, but I have done some more digging and found a couple of places willing to buy this off me for not far off the trade in value (only £2k less). So, now I'm wondering if being a cash buyer might put me in a better position overall.
Also, niggling me is the question of why hasn't the car sold? Been too expensive up until now? Launch car putting people off? Been sat too long?
Any thoughts and experiences from similar situations would be gratefully received.
Cheers!
Adam
My first foray into the world of McLaren (hopefully) and I'm looking to call on the collective knowledge of PH please
I'm cool with the warranty stuff, the depreciation, etc - I just want to have a solid car that I can enjoy.
I've read and heard all the recent blurb about "buyer's market" but unsure what this actually means in my position - what will dealers offer in order to shift a car?
The one I'm looking at is a 62 plate 12C Spider up at 90k. It was a McLaren launch car so has many option boxes ticked (carbon key backs, carbon seat backs, carbon diffuser and splitter, etc) so the spec is pretty desirable I would say. It drives spot on and has all the history to back this up. Appreciate it will have been nailed in the early years of its life, but I am confident any issues would have been discovered and sorted out by now.
The dealer has had it since October last year, had it serviced since, and I can see the price has been revised a few times on eBay - it was up at 96k in February, for example. The car has done reasonable miles between MOTs (~1800) and will be inspected by Thorney Motorsport before sale. The seller is also prepared to use John for the warranty rather than Warrantywise or someone similar (for info - Warrantywise were quoting £2.5k+VAT for 12 months).
We had agreed a deal in principle to trade in my F430 against it, but I have done some more digging and found a couple of places willing to buy this off me for not far off the trade in value (only £2k less). So, now I'm wondering if being a cash buyer might put me in a better position overall.
Also, niggling me is the question of why hasn't the car sold? Been too expensive up until now? Launch car putting people off? Been sat too long?
Any thoughts and experiences from similar situations would be gratefully received.
Cheers!
Adam
Edited by AdamR83 on Monday 24th June 13:19
Edited by AdamR83 on Monday 24th June 13:27
Thanks for all your comments chaps (and chapesses?)! A mix of re-affirming what I'd already worked out and some good suggestions, too.
It is the Ice Silver one Lee, yes, and the colour is lovely in the flesh. Very understated and a great brilliance to it in the light. I really love the oranges and reds but there's only one other at the budget I've set myself and that's been sat for over a year, has a cruddy MOT history and the dealer just put the price up by 5k!
I would have liked to pop to see Alastair but it's a 10 hour round trip (there are people up North have money, who knew?
) - also not keen on black for some reason, perhaps it's because of the outgoing vehicles colour being the same. That one he has does look great though, loving the extended paddles and shift lights.
Anyway, the dealer seems a decent guy so we had an open chat about it all - for him it made no difference. To save me some effort, and leave him with another nice car to sell / make some money on (ha), it makes sense to trade in. We just need to finalise the details - one major one being he needs to see my 430, as it's been in for warranty work for almost the last month, d'oh.
The car was down at Thorney for inspection today as 'stage 1' of the warranty, so hopefully that all went as planned and we can seal the deal next week. Nice timing as my car nut dad is up for the weekend (very rarely see him).
Insurance-wise, Jack at Manning came back with a good quote under £900 including unlimited UK track day cover (10% excess though, haha) - a good £500 less than anyone else I tried (NFU wouldn't quote, AIB £1400, Nowell & Richards £1600, comparison sites similar to the Manning quote but don't fancy using Aviva).
Thanks again to those who have chipped in
It is the Ice Silver one Lee, yes, and the colour is lovely in the flesh. Very understated and a great brilliance to it in the light. I really love the oranges and reds but there's only one other at the budget I've set myself and that's been sat for over a year, has a cruddy MOT history and the dealer just put the price up by 5k!
I would have liked to pop to see Alastair but it's a 10 hour round trip (there are people up North have money, who knew?
) - also not keen on black for some reason, perhaps it's because of the outgoing vehicles colour being the same. That one he has does look great though, loving the extended paddles and shift lights.Anyway, the dealer seems a decent guy so we had an open chat about it all - for him it made no difference. To save me some effort, and leave him with another nice car to sell / make some money on (ha), it makes sense to trade in. We just need to finalise the details - one major one being he needs to see my 430, as it's been in for warranty work for almost the last month, d'oh.
The car was down at Thorney for inspection today as 'stage 1' of the warranty, so hopefully that all went as planned and we can seal the deal next week. Nice timing as my car nut dad is up for the weekend (very rarely see him).
Insurance-wise, Jack at Manning came back with a good quote under £900 including unlimited UK track day cover (10% excess though, haha) - a good £500 less than anyone else I tried (NFU wouldn't quote, AIB £1400, Nowell & Richards £1600, comparison sites similar to the Manning quote but don't fancy using Aviva).
Thanks again to those who have chipped in
Thanks gents!
Absolutely happy to share my experiences. I am absolutely nowhere near an expert with this sort of thing, but here's my take on it.
Firstly, I absolutely emphathise with the feeling of 'pants being pulled down'. However, I've become more at ease with that recently. I don't think you would be concerned if someone was intending to buy a second hand pair of jeans off you for £7 to try and sell them at £9, yet add some 000s on the end and we can get a bit funny about it.
These guys (well, the honest ones!) are just making a living and not being greedy. They are 'car guys' just like us, and stumping up a large amount of cash in the hopes of turning it into a bit more. It's a business. If they are ill and can't work, they don't get paid. If their kids are off school and they can't work, or for whatever reason they can't really be arsed to function that day and just sit at their desk fecking about on Facebook, a bank transfer doesn't get magically dumped into their bank account with metronomic frequency.
Enough about human factors - back to the car. I think one thing always stands up - there is always a good market for good cars. However, one thing that a couple of dealers have said recently is that they seem to shift the really expensive stuff (£150k+) easily, but the 'bottom end' of the 'supercar' market is a bit slow. They cited people tightening purse strings, perhaps the B-Word related, perhaps the general feeling that something doesn't feel right with the economy at the moment, I don't know. But either way they recokned that people with buttloads of cash are still spending it, yet those trying to 'stretch up' are hanging onto it due to some sort of uncertainty.
Now to some numbers... my 430 Spider is a tidy example, all the right bits, low to average miles, impeccable service history, carbon brakes, recent clutch and manifolds. I reckon a dealer would price that car somewhere around £85-90k depending on how quickly they wanted to move it on. I paid £85k for it a year ago, funded from a rental property sale, and had intended to hang onto it as a bit of an investment, but something I could enjoy too. Bricks and mortar is great but doesn't have a V8 howl ;-) And things change (see below).
Trade ins I've been offered are mostly £70k give or take a smidge. One bidded £75k but I have a feeling they really, really wanted rid of the 650S I had enquired about - they've had it nearly a year and lopped close to £20k off the price in that time. The place I bought it from offered me £68k as a straight buy-back. They put a good warranty on it when I bought it and it's had a few bits done in the last year, but they know the car well and it is solid, so I think that is a top end value. When discussing this with them, they said they'd look to re-advertise at the same as what I paid for it.
Seventeen thousand pounds I hear you scream! Well. Yes, that is a lot of money. But it needs a service now - that's a grand. Give it a once over, perhaps a bit of tittivating, that's a few hundred quid. Pay the tea boy to wash it 100 times while it sits in the showroom for a few months. Have £70k tied up for... potentially into next spring or summer? Consider what else you could buy with that £70k and turn through in that same time. Stick a decent warranty on it for the next owner, 3 grand. Pay corporation tax on whatever profit is made. They might come out with £7k, ~10% gross profit. My business would not operate with that margin (though the average sale is far less! ).
Also, from my side... even after insurance, tax, MOT, fuel and some time getting it to and from the dealer for small warranty niggles; trading the car in for £70k means I've 'rented' the thing for under £20k for the year. A touch under £10 a mile in my case. I have no idea where you can rent a supercar for that sort of money, and have it on hand 24/7/365 for your every whim. And even if you could, you didn't actually own the thing, so you'd be lying to your grandkids.
Could have tried a private sale - perhaps it would be straightforward to get rid of the car for £75k to someone who sees they can sit on it and flip it for 10 grand more next summer, but there are a lot of time-wasters out there and I wouldn't really be able to use it in the meantime without it costing me £100 extra per viewing for another proper valet!
The other option is SOR (sale or return) - find a trusted dealer you know well, they'll advertise and try to sell the car for you for a fee. In my case with Supercar Clinic that would have been £2500. I could have stuck it up at £80k to see what happened, or even £75k to try and get a really quick sale... but there's no guarantees. And it's summer. And my MX-5 failed it's MOT so I'm really missing roofless driving. And my cheating slutbag of a hopefully-soon-to-be-ex-wife's solicitor is angling at trying to take me to the cleaners so I might as well a) enjoy life a bit and b) spaz some money away while I still have any
bit blunt there, but point being everyone is in a different situation. I'm happy with renting a Ferrari for a year for £10 a mile.
BlackR8, perhaps in your situation the SOR is the best route? You can just sit with the car for sale for a bit, get the best price possible, and peruse the McMarket while doing so. If something really special or cheap comes up, flog the R8 pronto at less than you'd hoped and go for it, otherwise wait til the R8 sells then count your beans and start again. As I said, I am absolutely nowhere near an expert with this sort of thing...
Absolutely happy to share my experiences. I am absolutely nowhere near an expert with this sort of thing, but here's my take on it.
Firstly, I absolutely emphathise with the feeling of 'pants being pulled down'. However, I've become more at ease with that recently. I don't think you would be concerned if someone was intending to buy a second hand pair of jeans off you for £7 to try and sell them at £9, yet add some 000s on the end and we can get a bit funny about it.
These guys (well, the honest ones!) are just making a living and not being greedy. They are 'car guys' just like us, and stumping up a large amount of cash in the hopes of turning it into a bit more. It's a business. If they are ill and can't work, they don't get paid. If their kids are off school and they can't work, or for whatever reason they can't really be arsed to function that day and just sit at their desk fecking about on Facebook, a bank transfer doesn't get magically dumped into their bank account with metronomic frequency.
Enough about human factors - back to the car. I think one thing always stands up - there is always a good market for good cars. However, one thing that a couple of dealers have said recently is that they seem to shift the really expensive stuff (£150k+) easily, but the 'bottom end' of the 'supercar' market is a bit slow. They cited people tightening purse strings, perhaps the B-Word related, perhaps the general feeling that something doesn't feel right with the economy at the moment, I don't know. But either way they recokned that people with buttloads of cash are still spending it, yet those trying to 'stretch up' are hanging onto it due to some sort of uncertainty.
Now to some numbers... my 430 Spider is a tidy example, all the right bits, low to average miles, impeccable service history, carbon brakes, recent clutch and manifolds. I reckon a dealer would price that car somewhere around £85-90k depending on how quickly they wanted to move it on. I paid £85k for it a year ago, funded from a rental property sale, and had intended to hang onto it as a bit of an investment, but something I could enjoy too. Bricks and mortar is great but doesn't have a V8 howl ;-) And things change (see below).
Trade ins I've been offered are mostly £70k give or take a smidge. One bidded £75k but I have a feeling they really, really wanted rid of the 650S I had enquired about - they've had it nearly a year and lopped close to £20k off the price in that time. The place I bought it from offered me £68k as a straight buy-back. They put a good warranty on it when I bought it and it's had a few bits done in the last year, but they know the car well and it is solid, so I think that is a top end value. When discussing this with them, they said they'd look to re-advertise at the same as what I paid for it.
Seventeen thousand pounds I hear you scream! Well. Yes, that is a lot of money. But it needs a service now - that's a grand. Give it a once over, perhaps a bit of tittivating, that's a few hundred quid. Pay the tea boy to wash it 100 times while it sits in the showroom for a few months. Have £70k tied up for... potentially into next spring or summer? Consider what else you could buy with that £70k and turn through in that same time. Stick a decent warranty on it for the next owner, 3 grand. Pay corporation tax on whatever profit is made. They might come out with £7k, ~10% gross profit. My business would not operate with that margin (though the average sale is far less!
).Also, from my side... even after insurance, tax, MOT, fuel and some time getting it to and from the dealer for small warranty niggles; trading the car in for £70k means I've 'rented' the thing for under £20k for the year. A touch under £10 a mile in my case. I have no idea where you can rent a supercar for that sort of money, and have it on hand 24/7/365 for your every whim. And even if you could, you didn't actually own the thing, so you'd be lying to your grandkids.
Could have tried a private sale - perhaps it would be straightforward to get rid of the car for £75k to someone who sees they can sit on it and flip it for 10 grand more next summer, but there are a lot of time-wasters out there and I wouldn't really be able to use it in the meantime without it costing me £100 extra per viewing for another proper valet!
The other option is SOR (sale or return) - find a trusted dealer you know well, they'll advertise and try to sell the car for you for a fee. In my case with Supercar Clinic that would have been £2500. I could have stuck it up at £80k to see what happened, or even £75k to try and get a really quick sale... but there's no guarantees. And it's summer. And my MX-5 failed it's MOT so I'm really missing roofless driving. And my cheating slutbag of a hopefully-soon-to-be-ex-wife's solicitor is angling at trying to take me to the cleaners so I might as well a) enjoy life a bit and b) spaz some money away while I still have any
bit blunt there, but point being everyone is in a different situation. I'm happy with renting a Ferrari for a year for £10 a mile.
BlackR8, perhaps in your situation the SOR is the best route? You can just sit with the car for sale for a bit, get the best price possible, and peruse the McMarket while doing so. If something really special or cheap comes up, flog the R8 pronto at less than you'd hoped and go for it, otherwise wait til the R8 sells then count your beans and start again. As I said, I am absolutely nowhere near an expert with this sort of thing...
BlackR8 - you're welcome. Just realised there's a typo in my post but I think you got the idea anyway :-) Good luck with your search and don't forget the manculator
tyrrell - Thank you. I feel pretty excited by all of this so hope it works out too!
Kananga - I've just updated my forum preferences, but popped you a message too. Thanks in advance.
tyrrell - Thank you. I feel pretty excited by all of this so hope it works out too!
Kananga - I've just updated my forum preferences, but popped you a message too. Thanks in advance.
Well, plans changed a bit - I now have a 650S sat on the drive! And what a machine it is. Even from a motorway run, a short blast last night and a trip to the gym this morning I can tell I'm going to love this car.
Huge thanks to a fellow forum member and car nut for a truly pleasurable experience throughout. Who knew that buying a car remotely from someone who isn't even in the country at the time of sale could be so easy? The whole process has been confirmation for me that there is no need to worry when buying an expensive car privately. I figure both parties will either be really switched-on people, or drug dealers, and the latter will be easy to work out quite quickly
Huge thanks to a fellow forum member and car nut for a truly pleasurable experience throughout. Who knew that buying a car remotely from someone who isn't even in the country at the time of sale could be so easy? The whole process has been confirmation for me that there is no need to worry when buying an expensive car privately. I figure both parties will either be really switched-on people, or drug dealers, and the latter will be easy to work out quite quickly
So, bit of a bump, but nearly 3 months with the car now and thought it was worth an update...
This may be a bit scatty as there is so much to tell, but the TL:DR version is that I think it's a technical masterpiece and a cracking bit of kit!
Total miles covered now is about 2500, with average mpg hovering around 21-22. I live 'oop Norf' so not many traffic jams to sit in, though I do use the car pretty much every day for an 8 mile commute. Motorway runs easily see 30mpg, giving it the beans on the road sees low teens / high single figures. Very impressive considering the performance.
The driveability is unreal. In fact, for me the most impressive thing is how the car goes slowly. Round town it's very straightforward. The lads at work move it around the car park every now and then and always comment how it doesn't feel intimidating. My fiancee jumped in and immediately squeezed it up to 3 figures without batting an eyelid. My dad hopped in and drove it around no bother - 'easier to drive than my Insignia', he said. He's a long-term petrol head and I think this is where my love of cars comes from... I remember as a very small child tinkering in the garage with him, working on neighbours cars and his 3.0L Capri. My love of cars took a long time to germinate (he moved away with I was 7, I got into cars in my mid 20s) but it's definitely his fault!
Visibility out the front is brilliant, the low nose gives you a proper 'widescreen' view of the road. The huge side mirrors allow you to see over the rear 'humps' nicely, and the back window (I LOVE that it is independent of the roof) plenty big enough. Slightly tricky to see rearwards at angles due to the 'humps', but the parking sensors work nicely providing you don't have the radio turned up too loud, and the side mirrors have zero blind spot.
Everyone loves hearing the big V8 burst into life. The growl as it fires up to 3000 rpm then settles into a smooth idle never gets old - especially with the roof up and rear window down, as this makes the sound reverberate around the cabin and go right though you. The 'loud start' feature (active dynamics on, track powertrain mode set) revs up even higher and is kinda cool for when someone has been to chat about the car with you at a petrol station, etc (as long as the engine is fully warm, obviously). This happens quite a lot - I've had a few kit cars and the aforementioned Italian vehicle in the past, but this gets more attention, and all of it positive. Kids get their phones out and video as you drive past, bikers wave / thumbs up you, people rev their engines at traffic lights requesting you to do the same. I'm a pretty nerdy / quiet kind of guy but there is a huge satisfaction from letting others enjoy the car too, so as long as the oil temp is up I'll give in to their requests.
I always thought a performance car should have a manual gearbox - and no turbos, for that matter - but this is 'the future' so I went into it with my eyes open. The gearbox in auto mode is pretty clever, but I always drive it in manual. For me, it revs too high before changing up for pootling around, even in 'Normal' powertrain mode. With manual you get the choice of when to shift so you can keep it off boost, helping with fuel consumption and noise for town driving. I absolutely love the fact that the paddles are connected, so a pull towards of the right engages the next cog up in the same way as pushing away of the left. This is great when you have your hands crossed over in a tight-ish turn and still want to shift (either direction). Shifting is really smooth in all 3 powertrain modes once you're out of 1st gear, but the added urgency (and 'inertia push' in Track) is noticeable. I tend to drive in Sport most of the time, with the suspension in 'Normal'.
On that note, the suspension really is witchcraft. Normal gives a ride better than modern hot hatches, Sport adds a little bit of extra damping to help the car cope better on bumpy B roads at higher speeds, Track notches that up again and definitely feels more 'taught' due to tons of added low speed damping in both compression and rebound. I have actually inadvertently had the car fully airborne, and the active dampers made a very good job of soaking up the landing without fuss or any bottoming out. The rear heave bar helps with this I'm sure (think anti-roll bar, but a Z shape instead of a C shape - so it resists two wheel downward motion) - race car tech on a road car, sweet! On this note, the 'vanes' at the front of the car do scrub every now and again on compressions, so I'm fairly sure mine will be cracked by now, but they are a cheap and easy replacement.
The traction control systems linked to these three modes seem clever too. Normal doesn't let the car get out of shape at all - perhaps a contributing factor towards my surprisingly low insurance premium! - Sport does allow some slip before cutting power and keeping things in check, and Track will give you a full half turn of oppo before you can feel the brake steer nibbling away. It does tend to 'snap' fairly quickly, mostly due to the open diff I think, but the communication through the chassis and steering is sublime, so it's not tricky to catch. Very glad they stuck with hydraulic power steering - it also has a lovely weight, it never feels 'wrong' if you see what I mean. And I guess I could apply that to many areas of the car come to think of it. Most vehicles I think 'tut, that's annoying' or 'I'd have calibrated that differently', with the 650S there are so few times that happens I've been pretty impressed.
The lift system is great. Easy to access, quick to activate, raises the car by a good 40mm or so (more at the front than the rear) - I haven't scraped on anything. You can activate it up to 30mph and it automatically lowers once you get to 39mph, clever stuff. Here is the car parked up on Honister Pass for a lunch stop with it activated (yeah yeah, I'm due a fine from the Owners Club!) - fairly sure the system was essential in getting up here with the undreside of the car unscathed!
Most reviews note how much effort the brake pedal requires, but to me it seems fairly middle of the road, despite being very 'firm'. This is in no small part to my kit car experience, where I've set the brake system up so it needs about 50kg of force to lock the wheels (normal road cars with a big servo are in the region of 15kg), but it's never felt unmanageable for the other people who have driven the car and they haven't commented on it. The feel, power and modulation are impressive at lower speeds, if you really stand on them (and have your rear view partially blocked by that big old spoiler popping up, then grinning like a child) they slow the car impressive quickly and the release is lovely and progressive. I always left foot brake - feels very natural given that the pedals sit eitehr side of the steering column - and I like the fact that unlike a lot of modern cars it will allow you to 'overlap' the two pedal inputs, so you can keep throttle on and tweak the yaw angle of the car with the brake pedal.
A lot of chat is generated regarding the sound of the McLarens compared with their N/A cousins, and initially I was pretty non-plussed by the exhaust and induction notes, despite the sports exhaust. It is certainly no match for the F430 I had, but there is more depth to it with the ISG (intake sound generator), turbo and wastegate noises. The latter two aren't so audible with the roof fully down (or fully up, of course), but start the car near a building / wall and pull away with the rear windown retracted and you get some lovely whistles. The burble on over-run is subtle, but reminds you of what sort of powerplant is sat behind you - I often change down a gear while coasting downhill just to increase the amount of over-run sound! The ISG feels a bit synthetic - in the same way as driving an M Series BMW - but it's pretty cool to squeeze the throttle open, feel the turbos start to spool up and get a fairly serious growl from behind you all in one go. The settings menu allows you to set the amount of ISG per powertrain mode - I've gone for full beans everywhere apart from 'Normal'.
The other noise from the car is the radio - which I find really impressive. I've not had many modern cars with good stereos to compare, but the Meridian seems to deliver right through the range. Bass is enough to feel it in your chest and still not distort, the higher frequencies are crisp and you can pick out the mid range well. It's actually allowed me to discover details in some of my favourite songs that I didn't previously realise were there. One of the greatest pleasures I take from the car is to drive at night, roof down, radio up so loud that I can't hear the engine - it just feels like a comfortable, refined modern car. The lights in the footwells, under the door handles (both are brightness adjustable) and pointing down to the dynamics panel from near the rear view mirror are a nice touch.
The seats in my car are specced with half leather and half alcantara, which for me seems like the perfect combination of warmth, lack of slidey-ness and durability (the bolsters would get scuffed up too fast in full alcantara I reckon) - combined with the two-stage heaters and huge range of position adjustment they are a very comfortable place to be. I took my aging mother over to Whitby for a few days last month, a drive of nearly 6 hours due to traffic, the IRIS system (more on that later! Ha) and our willingness to sightsee, yet despite her having a really bad back which had left her chair-bound for the past two weeks never once complained. In fact said she felt better after having been in the car! She also usually gets car sick in the passenger seat, but I think given the 'magic carpet' ride quality she was much better in this respect too. Goes to show that comfort and transmissibility is more about unsprung mass, damping rate and quality than it is spring selection. A couple of hours in the car and you get out feeling totally fresh, a full day and you barely notice - deeply impressive.
We've done a few weekend trips with it and surprisingly the frunk (front trunk) is big enough for two overnight bags and a load of outdoor kit. The internal shape of the bonnet is really well designed to allow a 'cavity' which increases luggage space up and over the height of the seal, so extra coats etc can be placed on top of your stuff and still be accommodated. A nice little detail. Haven't used the extra storage space in the 'humps' as I have the roof down at every opportunity, but it's nice to know it's there and again the little bags supplied with the car are cool.
Much is also said of the IRIS system and again I haven't got much to compare it to, but it works ok for what I need - which is mostly playing tunes from a USB stick inserted into the slot in the cubby hole between the seats. The swipe feature is nice for changing tracks, meaning you can do it without having to take eyes off the road, and I've not had any of the 'dropping out' others have reported with the DAB radio. The sat nav is a little clunky and not as intuitive as, say, the mechanicals and various 'buttons' of the car, but as long as you set the route planner to 'easy' it won't take you down stupid roads. If you do, however, set it to shortest and try to drive West to East across the North Yorkshire Moors you will find yourself looking at lots of dry stone walls in fine detail and becoming good friends with Dolly's next of kin. All part of the experience! Still, the car feels capable here and not intimidating, due to that great front visibility and the parking sensors that automatically switch on / off at under / over 15mph, neat.
Onto the driving experience... I guess the over-riding sensation is that the car feels very well screwed together and capable. Up to 90% ultimate pace it just grips and grips, urging you on and coping with everything you can throw at it. The drivers seat is a lovely place to be, with huge amounts of steering wheel adjustment too, so you can sit exactly as you want. The layout of the various buttons, controls and switches is beautifully thought out. The symmetry really appeals to my inner nerd, and the dash is brilliant both day and night. I really appreciate the way that the wheel is for driving the car - gears and steering only - it's very uncluttered and understated. Having the option of roof up, roof down, or just rear window down gives 3 completely different sensations to the car. This combined with the 3 handling modes and 3 powertrain modes and you have a very wide range of experiences. It takes a long time to learn the full character of the car.
It goes without saying that the car is fast, but just how fast was initially quite surprising for me. I've owned cars with more bhp/ton on paper but the way the 650S delivers its power is sensational. The seamless gearbox and the torque in the mid range pulls it along with quite some vigour. A couple of mates who have also owned and driven very quick / powerful cars in the past and consider themselves seasoned speed-freaks have got out with the adrenaline shakes. I am guilty of inspecting the 0-60 and 0-100 numbers carefully and comparing them, as I'm sure many of us are, but they mean very little in reality - it basically tells you how quickly you'll lose your license if you can't restrain your right foot!
Oh, the key! I love the key. It's a beautiful organic shape, weighty in the hand, and despite the carbon back it is still understated. The 'extra' functions like double pressing the middle button, or long press of the middle button, to unlock and release the drivers and passenger doors respectively are really cool. Locking the car using the proximity sensor near the door release button never gets old!
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not really much of a detailer (my MX-5 might see the Polish hand car wash twice a year if its lucky), however I have enjoyed the process with the McLaren. It has a full PPF (which has been expertly applied, very hard to tell it's there) which makes this much easier, and more resistant to small scratches / swirling, but I still went the whole hog and bought a snow foam lance, posh wash mitt, two buckets, etc. In less than an hour the car comes up absolutely spanking clean again, in no small part down to the carbon brakes which don't deposit any ferrous particles on the wheels, and it's a joy to do - inspecting the lines, curves and details of the outside of the car is something you don't often get to do, so it's a real treat when I do have a spare bit of time.
Depreciation - again lots of chat about this. As hinted earlier in the thread, I look at this like renting a car. If it costs me £20k over a year and I can get 4000 miles in, then £5 a mile to have a true supercar sat there waiting for you and your every whim, 24 hours a day, seems good value to me. You can tick off tons of life boxes and look back on them in years to come with a big smile.
Niggles - well, there are always some with every car. I'd gone into this with a full McLaren extended warranty and my eyes wide open, yet have been pleasantly surprised. It really does prove that everyone tells you when their cars go wrong, but rarely mention it when they are working fine! So far I've seen a couple of drips of water on the passenger seat, from the front edge of the roof (parked on a slope overnight - haven't seen it since), and once or twice the soft close feature on the drivers door has failed to activate (lift and push it back down again and it'll work), but other than that I've literally only checked tyre pressures, checked oil level (hasn't used any at all) and put fuel in. A tiny technical niggle - for me at least, I've never heard anyone else mention this before - is that the car surges forward ever so slightly when cruise control is activated. It's like it's trying to hit 2-3mph higher than the speed you have set, then immediately settles back down. I've worked out that a small throttle lift just before nudging the stalk smooths this right out, though.
So yeah, overall, the car is a technological masterpiece. The fact it goes slowly so well, yet is a seriously quick car when you want it to be, proves the depth of its character. Very well built, easy to drive, fun, comfortable, truly stunning to look at, and built right here in Britain. Look forward to many more trouble-free miles! In fact, I'd better call the insurance brokers as I'm completely unexpectedly not far off exceeding my mileage allowance for the year already
This may be a bit scatty as there is so much to tell, but the TL:DR version is that I think it's a technical masterpiece and a cracking bit of kit!
Total miles covered now is about 2500, with average mpg hovering around 21-22. I live 'oop Norf' so not many traffic jams to sit in, though I do use the car pretty much every day for an 8 mile commute. Motorway runs easily see 30mpg, giving it the beans on the road sees low teens / high single figures. Very impressive considering the performance.
The driveability is unreal. In fact, for me the most impressive thing is how the car goes slowly. Round town it's very straightforward. The lads at work move it around the car park every now and then and always comment how it doesn't feel intimidating. My fiancee jumped in and immediately squeezed it up to 3 figures without batting an eyelid. My dad hopped in and drove it around no bother - 'easier to drive than my Insignia', he said. He's a long-term petrol head and I think this is where my love of cars comes from... I remember as a very small child tinkering in the garage with him, working on neighbours cars and his 3.0L Capri. My love of cars took a long time to germinate (he moved away with I was 7, I got into cars in my mid 20s) but it's definitely his fault!
Visibility out the front is brilliant, the low nose gives you a proper 'widescreen' view of the road. The huge side mirrors allow you to see over the rear 'humps' nicely, and the back window (I LOVE that it is independent of the roof) plenty big enough. Slightly tricky to see rearwards at angles due to the 'humps', but the parking sensors work nicely providing you don't have the radio turned up too loud, and the side mirrors have zero blind spot.
Everyone loves hearing the big V8 burst into life. The growl as it fires up to 3000 rpm then settles into a smooth idle never gets old - especially with the roof up and rear window down, as this makes the sound reverberate around the cabin and go right though you. The 'loud start' feature (active dynamics on, track powertrain mode set) revs up even higher and is kinda cool for when someone has been to chat about the car with you at a petrol station, etc (as long as the engine is fully warm, obviously). This happens quite a lot - I've had a few kit cars and the aforementioned Italian vehicle in the past, but this gets more attention, and all of it positive. Kids get their phones out and video as you drive past, bikers wave / thumbs up you, people rev their engines at traffic lights requesting you to do the same. I'm a pretty nerdy / quiet kind of guy but there is a huge satisfaction from letting others enjoy the car too, so as long as the oil temp is up I'll give in to their requests.
I always thought a performance car should have a manual gearbox - and no turbos, for that matter - but this is 'the future' so I went into it with my eyes open. The gearbox in auto mode is pretty clever, but I always drive it in manual. For me, it revs too high before changing up for pootling around, even in 'Normal' powertrain mode. With manual you get the choice of when to shift so you can keep it off boost, helping with fuel consumption and noise for town driving. I absolutely love the fact that the paddles are connected, so a pull towards of the right engages the next cog up in the same way as pushing away of the left. This is great when you have your hands crossed over in a tight-ish turn and still want to shift (either direction). Shifting is really smooth in all 3 powertrain modes once you're out of 1st gear, but the added urgency (and 'inertia push' in Track) is noticeable. I tend to drive in Sport most of the time, with the suspension in 'Normal'.
On that note, the suspension really is witchcraft. Normal gives a ride better than modern hot hatches, Sport adds a little bit of extra damping to help the car cope better on bumpy B roads at higher speeds, Track notches that up again and definitely feels more 'taught' due to tons of added low speed damping in both compression and rebound. I have actually inadvertently had the car fully airborne, and the active dampers made a very good job of soaking up the landing without fuss or any bottoming out. The rear heave bar helps with this I'm sure (think anti-roll bar, but a Z shape instead of a C shape - so it resists two wheel downward motion) - race car tech on a road car, sweet! On this note, the 'vanes' at the front of the car do scrub every now and again on compressions, so I'm fairly sure mine will be cracked by now, but they are a cheap and easy replacement.
The traction control systems linked to these three modes seem clever too. Normal doesn't let the car get out of shape at all - perhaps a contributing factor towards my surprisingly low insurance premium! - Sport does allow some slip before cutting power and keeping things in check, and Track will give you a full half turn of oppo before you can feel the brake steer nibbling away. It does tend to 'snap' fairly quickly, mostly due to the open diff I think, but the communication through the chassis and steering is sublime, so it's not tricky to catch. Very glad they stuck with hydraulic power steering - it also has a lovely weight, it never feels 'wrong' if you see what I mean. And I guess I could apply that to many areas of the car come to think of it. Most vehicles I think 'tut, that's annoying' or 'I'd have calibrated that differently', with the 650S there are so few times that happens I've been pretty impressed.
The lift system is great. Easy to access, quick to activate, raises the car by a good 40mm or so (more at the front than the rear) - I haven't scraped on anything. You can activate it up to 30mph and it automatically lowers once you get to 39mph, clever stuff. Here is the car parked up on Honister Pass for a lunch stop with it activated (yeah yeah, I'm due a fine from the Owners Club!) - fairly sure the system was essential in getting up here with the undreside of the car unscathed!
Most reviews note how much effort the brake pedal requires, but to me it seems fairly middle of the road, despite being very 'firm'. This is in no small part to my kit car experience, where I've set the brake system up so it needs about 50kg of force to lock the wheels (normal road cars with a big servo are in the region of 15kg), but it's never felt unmanageable for the other people who have driven the car and they haven't commented on it. The feel, power and modulation are impressive at lower speeds, if you really stand on them (and have your rear view partially blocked by that big old spoiler popping up, then grinning like a child) they slow the car impressive quickly and the release is lovely and progressive. I always left foot brake - feels very natural given that the pedals sit eitehr side of the steering column - and I like the fact that unlike a lot of modern cars it will allow you to 'overlap' the two pedal inputs, so you can keep throttle on and tweak the yaw angle of the car with the brake pedal.
A lot of chat is generated regarding the sound of the McLarens compared with their N/A cousins, and initially I was pretty non-plussed by the exhaust and induction notes, despite the sports exhaust. It is certainly no match for the F430 I had, but there is more depth to it with the ISG (intake sound generator), turbo and wastegate noises. The latter two aren't so audible with the roof fully down (or fully up, of course), but start the car near a building / wall and pull away with the rear windown retracted and you get some lovely whistles. The burble on over-run is subtle, but reminds you of what sort of powerplant is sat behind you - I often change down a gear while coasting downhill just to increase the amount of over-run sound! The ISG feels a bit synthetic - in the same way as driving an M Series BMW - but it's pretty cool to squeeze the throttle open, feel the turbos start to spool up and get a fairly serious growl from behind you all in one go. The settings menu allows you to set the amount of ISG per powertrain mode - I've gone for full beans everywhere apart from 'Normal'.
The other noise from the car is the radio - which I find really impressive. I've not had many modern cars with good stereos to compare, but the Meridian seems to deliver right through the range. Bass is enough to feel it in your chest and still not distort, the higher frequencies are crisp and you can pick out the mid range well. It's actually allowed me to discover details in some of my favourite songs that I didn't previously realise were there. One of the greatest pleasures I take from the car is to drive at night, roof down, radio up so loud that I can't hear the engine - it just feels like a comfortable, refined modern car. The lights in the footwells, under the door handles (both are brightness adjustable) and pointing down to the dynamics panel from near the rear view mirror are a nice touch.
The seats in my car are specced with half leather and half alcantara, which for me seems like the perfect combination of warmth, lack of slidey-ness and durability (the bolsters would get scuffed up too fast in full alcantara I reckon) - combined with the two-stage heaters and huge range of position adjustment they are a very comfortable place to be. I took my aging mother over to Whitby for a few days last month, a drive of nearly 6 hours due to traffic, the IRIS system (more on that later! Ha) and our willingness to sightsee, yet despite her having a really bad back which had left her chair-bound for the past two weeks never once complained. In fact said she felt better after having been in the car! She also usually gets car sick in the passenger seat, but I think given the 'magic carpet' ride quality she was much better in this respect too. Goes to show that comfort and transmissibility is more about unsprung mass, damping rate and quality than it is spring selection. A couple of hours in the car and you get out feeling totally fresh, a full day and you barely notice - deeply impressive.
We've done a few weekend trips with it and surprisingly the frunk (front trunk) is big enough for two overnight bags and a load of outdoor kit. The internal shape of the bonnet is really well designed to allow a 'cavity' which increases luggage space up and over the height of the seal, so extra coats etc can be placed on top of your stuff and still be accommodated. A nice little detail. Haven't used the extra storage space in the 'humps' as I have the roof down at every opportunity, but it's nice to know it's there and again the little bags supplied with the car are cool.
Much is also said of the IRIS system and again I haven't got much to compare it to, but it works ok for what I need - which is mostly playing tunes from a USB stick inserted into the slot in the cubby hole between the seats. The swipe feature is nice for changing tracks, meaning you can do it without having to take eyes off the road, and I've not had any of the 'dropping out' others have reported with the DAB radio. The sat nav is a little clunky and not as intuitive as, say, the mechanicals and various 'buttons' of the car, but as long as you set the route planner to 'easy' it won't take you down stupid roads. If you do, however, set it to shortest and try to drive West to East across the North Yorkshire Moors you will find yourself looking at lots of dry stone walls in fine detail and becoming good friends with Dolly's next of kin. All part of the experience! Still, the car feels capable here and not intimidating, due to that great front visibility and the parking sensors that automatically switch on / off at under / over 15mph, neat.
Onto the driving experience... I guess the over-riding sensation is that the car feels very well screwed together and capable. Up to 90% ultimate pace it just grips and grips, urging you on and coping with everything you can throw at it. The drivers seat is a lovely place to be, with huge amounts of steering wheel adjustment too, so you can sit exactly as you want. The layout of the various buttons, controls and switches is beautifully thought out. The symmetry really appeals to my inner nerd, and the dash is brilliant both day and night. I really appreciate the way that the wheel is for driving the car - gears and steering only - it's very uncluttered and understated. Having the option of roof up, roof down, or just rear window down gives 3 completely different sensations to the car. This combined with the 3 handling modes and 3 powertrain modes and you have a very wide range of experiences. It takes a long time to learn the full character of the car.
It goes without saying that the car is fast, but just how fast was initially quite surprising for me. I've owned cars with more bhp/ton on paper but the way the 650S delivers its power is sensational. The seamless gearbox and the torque in the mid range pulls it along with quite some vigour. A couple of mates who have also owned and driven very quick / powerful cars in the past and consider themselves seasoned speed-freaks have got out with the adrenaline shakes. I am guilty of inspecting the 0-60 and 0-100 numbers carefully and comparing them, as I'm sure many of us are, but they mean very little in reality - it basically tells you how quickly you'll lose your license if you can't restrain your right foot!
Oh, the key! I love the key. It's a beautiful organic shape, weighty in the hand, and despite the carbon back it is still understated. The 'extra' functions like double pressing the middle button, or long press of the middle button, to unlock and release the drivers and passenger doors respectively are really cool. Locking the car using the proximity sensor near the door release button never gets old!
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not really much of a detailer (my MX-5 might see the Polish hand car wash twice a year if its lucky), however I have enjoyed the process with the McLaren. It has a full PPF (which has been expertly applied, very hard to tell it's there) which makes this much easier, and more resistant to small scratches / swirling, but I still went the whole hog and bought a snow foam lance, posh wash mitt, two buckets, etc. In less than an hour the car comes up absolutely spanking clean again, in no small part down to the carbon brakes which don't deposit any ferrous particles on the wheels, and it's a joy to do - inspecting the lines, curves and details of the outside of the car is something you don't often get to do, so it's a real treat when I do have a spare bit of time.
Depreciation - again lots of chat about this. As hinted earlier in the thread, I look at this like renting a car. If it costs me £20k over a year and I can get 4000 miles in, then £5 a mile to have a true supercar sat there waiting for you and your every whim, 24 hours a day, seems good value to me. You can tick off tons of life boxes and look back on them in years to come with a big smile.
Niggles - well, there are always some with every car. I'd gone into this with a full McLaren extended warranty and my eyes wide open, yet have been pleasantly surprised. It really does prove that everyone tells you when their cars go wrong, but rarely mention it when they are working fine! So far I've seen a couple of drips of water on the passenger seat, from the front edge of the roof (parked on a slope overnight - haven't seen it since), and once or twice the soft close feature on the drivers door has failed to activate (lift and push it back down again and it'll work), but other than that I've literally only checked tyre pressures, checked oil level (hasn't used any at all) and put fuel in. A tiny technical niggle - for me at least, I've never heard anyone else mention this before - is that the car surges forward ever so slightly when cruise control is activated. It's like it's trying to hit 2-3mph higher than the speed you have set, then immediately settles back down. I've worked out that a small throttle lift just before nudging the stalk smooths this right out, though.
So yeah, overall, the car is a technological masterpiece. The fact it goes slowly so well, yet is a seriously quick car when you want it to be, proves the depth of its character. Very well built, easy to drive, fun, comfortable, truly stunning to look at, and built right here in Britain. Look forward to many more trouble-free miles! In fact, I'd better call the insurance brokers as I'm completely unexpectedly not far off exceeding my mileage allowance for the year already
Edited by AdamR83 on Friday 20th September 11:02
Well, a bit of a bump. Very happy to report the car has remained 100% trouble-free - blown away by the performance and quality every time I drive it. The attention received when I lent it to a mate for his wedding last week was astounding, and seeing real life Fast n Furious played out while I was watching from another vehicle has served a memory I'll never forget!
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https://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/uploads/monthly_202...
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Edited by jeremyc on Thursday 19th March 07:54
Another bump, again with positives... 
Have been using the car regularly over the last few months (I despise the term 'essential' worker when I'm just doing my job...), and it has just been in for a service and warranty extension. A couple of small age-related bits came up on the inspection - little bit of lacquer peel / bubble to wheel centre caps and bonnet badge, cracked air deflectors underneath (not surprised - and cheaper than I expected to replace, under £80 a pair with fitting), and a rear light unit. Everything else was spot on, it's even not exhibiting signs of paint bubbling to front edge of bonnet and front sills.
All the work was sorted quickly and easily thanks to the very efficient Sam at McManc, so the car is ready to go again for another trouble-free year.
Looking at the current market, it appears I'm getting better value on the "£ per mile calculation" than the F430 too, and enjoying driving it a lot more - winning
Have been using the car regularly over the last few months (I despise the term 'essential' worker when I'm just doing my job...), and it has just been in for a service and warranty extension. A couple of small age-related bits came up on the inspection - little bit of lacquer peel / bubble to wheel centre caps and bonnet badge, cracked air deflectors underneath (not surprised - and cheaper than I expected to replace, under £80 a pair with fitting), and a rear light unit. Everything else was spot on, it's even not exhibiting signs of paint bubbling to front edge of bonnet and front sills.
All the work was sorted quickly and easily thanks to the very efficient Sam at McManc, so the car is ready to go again for another trouble-free year.
Looking at the current market, it appears I'm getting better value on the "£ per mile calculation" than the F430 too, and enjoying driving it a lot more - winning
Edited by AdamR83 on Wednesday 1st July 11:29
Edited by AdamR83 on Wednesday 1st July 11:30
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