VW aren’t going to threaten Tesla at this rate…
Discussion
Tesla is going to have to do some big additions to their model lineup by 2030 if they want to hit anywhere near that number imho.
The Model S is ageing, even with the recent overhaul, and the Model 3/Y are still quite expensive cars.
To hit volumes like that they are going to need a smaller and cheaper model.
The Model S is ageing, even with the recent overhaul, and the Model 3/Y are still quite expensive cars.
To hit volumes like that they are going to need a smaller and cheaper model.
untakenname said:
Tesla had the first mover advantage and made electric cars cool compared with what came before but times have now moved on and with the Roadster being vapourware they are looking stale compared to new upstarts such as Nio with their EP9 and established manufacturers such as Geely with Polestar Volvo and upcoming Evija Lotus.
As base spec model 3's with 5+ second 0-60's become ubiquitous the perceived performance advantage Telsa had till a couple of years ago against the competition has gone and I doubt they will remain cool with kids/eco minded anymore when they associate them with taxi cabs (most new ubers seems to be Model 3's in London).
The nearest historical equivalent is the Prius, all the left leaning celebrities loved them in the early 00's when they had green exclusivity then a couple of years on they became the defacto private hire car of choice and the coolness evaporated.
The Prius wasn't quicker than a Bugatti Veyron and one of the reason it's coolness evaporated was Tesla. It also wasn't really a solution to anything with regards climate change.As base spec model 3's with 5+ second 0-60's become ubiquitous the perceived performance advantage Telsa had till a couple of years ago against the competition has gone and I doubt they will remain cool with kids/eco minded anymore when they associate them with taxi cabs (most new ubers seems to be Model 3's in London).
The nearest historical equivalent is the Prius, all the left leaning celebrities loved them in the early 00's when they had green exclusivity then a couple of years on they became the defacto private hire car of choice and the coolness evaporated.
Because Tesla produced the first EV that was day to day usable and the first EV that was faster than an ICE car people assume that it will need to continue to remain dramatically better than anything else to sell cars.
My point was that even if the other manufacturers produce cars that are functionally equivalent to Tesla total demand for EVs will exceed the production capacity of the industry for about the next decade.
Elon Musk has been upfront that their longest term advantage is likely to be production and their primary product is the giga factory.
At current rates of expansion (45% compound annual growth rate) by 2025 they will be the worlds largest car manufacturer by revenue selling about 5 million (as they make premium cars they don't need to sell as many as Toyota). They can get to 5 million from the factory sites they already have.
If we look at where the rest of the industry by 2024 most of them are only just introducing their first generation EV specific platforms at some level of volume. The non Tesla charge networks might be functionally similar to the superchargers by then.
Ergo by the time the established manufacturers are ready to challenge it's already too late.
That also assumes that Tesla will sit on its laurels and not do anything. Stuff like 4680 battery, the structural battery pack, the Cybertruck and full self driving indicates that they won't. Having the best access to capital and being the number one rated employer for engineers will also help in the long run.
Talksteer said:
At current rates of expansion (45% compound annual growth rate) by 2025 they will be the worlds largest car manufacturer by revenue selling about 5 million (as they make premium cars they don't need to sell as many as Toyota). They can get to 5 million from the factory sites they already have.
Be very careful on extrapolating numbers directly out. The worldwide car market is projected to hit around 82m vehicles in 2022 and around 90m in 2023. Most automotive analysts are suggesting that 2023-2025 will be the peak after a return to some sort of normality (assuming we arent stuck in Pandemic hell for the next few years). Then its likely to be single digit growth. But there are so many factors and risks, and this market isnt suddenly exploding, though EV's are growing rapidly. I did have a spreadsheet that calculated the compound growth for Tesla until 2030, even at 45% each year. They would beat Toyota in volume at the end of the century only. It just illustrates the size of Toyota and the mountain that needs to be climbed - again, this is assuming that Tesla has no issues, problems, competitors or anything - and even then, its not until 2028 / 2029 that they get to be the same size. Revenue? Who knows, but do you think that the likes of Toyota and VAG will just sit back and let them take marketshare? Or that GM and Ford will let them become the dominant manufacturer in the US? As the adverts say, "past performance is not a guarantee for the future".
And, I think Zespak said, they have 2 models that sell. Unfortunately, Tesla doesnt break out the numbers, its tough to get accurate details, but try a stats like this:
1) Model S and X sales USA - DOWN 55%
2) Total Tesla sales USA 2020 - 292k - total sales USA 2021 - 302k - static!!!
3) No new volume models due in 2022 - Cybertruck is still delayed and projected to be 2023 now
Cherrypicking data? Absolutely. But its counter points and shows that all is not super positive for Tesla. They have pent-up demand for the M3 and MY and are struggling to keep up with demand. They are expanding into international markets that are growing, again very positive. In fact, the motoring analysts are suggesting that they will sell between 1.2-1.3m vehicles in 2022, though I am actually a little more bullish than that - I think probably closer to 1.4m, if not more! But, with increased market pressure, global OEM's soaking up some of that demand and a wider buying public, Tesla have a lot of challenges in the coming years. Will they continue to grow at the same rates going forward? Who knows, but its far from a sealed deal.
And dont get me wrong - the cars are actually very good. If they were crappy s
tboxes, it would be easy. But they arent. They are good and work well in the real-world. But their continued success isnt written in stone.Talksteer said:
If we look at where the rest of the industry by 2024 most of them are only just introducing their first generation EV specific platforms at some level of volume.
Really? Toyota maybe, but they do have deep engineering and manufacturing experience. VW, BMW, Mercedes are on second or third gen systems and (I keep saying this, but do not overlook them) the Korean brands are kicking in big time - who are on their second and third gen systems too. Toyota is late to the game, absolutely. But from a business point of view, they are growing, they didnt screw up on the production issues and have a broad WW market to sell to. EV's are less than 1% of their home market and hence they havent focused on it. Now its important and now they are pivoting. We will see what happens and if they can come to market with something that is compelling (I have my doubts), but the least depreciating car in the US is the Toyota Tacoma - a basically 15 year old model!!! Toyota is a very conservative company and other than the Prius, arent market makers. And its worked very well for them. Talksteer said:
That also assumes that Tesla will sit on its laurels and not do anything. Stuff like 4680 battery, the structural battery pack, the Cybertruck and full self driving indicates that they won't. Having the best access to capital and being the number one rated employer for engineers will also help in the long run.
Number one rated? Are you talking "most attractive place for engineers to work" or something else? Attractive to work and actually voted are two very different things. The Fortune, Glassdoor, Indeed and CBS "best places to work" reports do not rank Tesla at all. FSD? It will happen, but not for some time. Cybertruck? 2023. 4680 battery? Panasonic is projected to build 'test systems' by the end of the year with production in 2023. Lets see what happensTalksteer said:
Number one rated? Are you talking "most attractive place for engineers to work" or something else? Attractive to work and actually voted are two very different things.
It's common knowledge that the "big guys" in tech can cherry pick profiles other companies are struggling to fill. Apple, Google, Tesla, all are prestigious names that a big chunk of people just want to work for.Imagine if you want a career in the future of automotive, what would be your first pick, Tesla or GM?
off_again said:
Talksteer said:
If we look at where the rest of the industry by 2024 most of them are only just introducing their first generation EV specific platforms at some level of volume.
Really? Toyota maybe, but they do have deep engineering and manufacturing experience. VW, BMW, Mercedes are on second or third gen systems and (I keep saying this, but do not overlook them) the Korean brands are kicking in big time - who are on their second and third gen systems too. Toyota is late to the game, absolutely. But from a business point of view, they are growing, they didnt screw up on the production issues and have a broad WW market to sell to. EV's are less than 1% of their home market and hence they havent focused on it. Now its important and now they are pivoting. We will see what happens and if they can come to market with something that is compelling (I have my doubts), but the least depreciating car in the US is the Toyota Tacoma - a basically 15 year old model!!! Toyota is a very conservative company and other than the Prius, arent market makers. And its worked very well for them. Talksteer said:
That also assumes that Tesla will sit on its laurels and not do anything. Stuff like 4680 battery, the structural battery pack, the Cybertruck and full self driving indicates that they won't. Having the best access to capital and being the number one rated employer for engineers will also help in the long run.
Number one rated? Are you talking "most attractive place for engineers to work" or something else? Attractive to work and actually voted are two very different things. The Fortune, Glassdoor, Indeed and CBS "best places to work" reports do not rank Tesla at all. FSD? It will happen, but not for some time. Cybertruck? 2023. 4680 battery? Panasonic is projected to build 'test systems' by the end of the year with production in 2023. Lets see what happensTheir current I4 platform is an ICE and EV designed platform that still has compromises. Ergo they won't be on a dedicated EV for a number of years whereas Tesla will be on a fully integrated cell to structure system in months.
Mercedes is similar with bastardised ICE platforms and only just bringing in bespoke ones for their larger cars. Based on most trajectories they will appear in 2022-2023 and scale up for the next 1-2 years. Both BMW and MB will also be cell constrained.
Kia/Hyundai make good EVs, however Tesla is already the same size as them in revenue terms so even if they clicked their fingers and went 100% EV today Tesla would pass them both in this calendar year.
The 4680 is already being produced at scale internally, the Panasonic production is additional capacity. Teslas dry battery electrode process will make their internal production more competitive. Teslas buying power will also mean that Panasonic, CATL etc will end up adopting this standard and if other automakers want to benefit from that scale they will end up switching to that form factor (as many have with 2170) or ending up with worse conditions if they stick with older form factors.
The surveys I referenced were most desirable location for engineering graduates, SpaceX and Tesla have been top rated for some time. Their model is to attract top young talent retain them with stock options for long enough before they burn out. Various people suggest that it would be easy to poach the talent however I'm less sure, see how well Blue Origin are doing with that strategy. If you succeeded at Tesla it's likely you will find work at a legacy auto company stifling.
It's also worth adding that they are moving beyond cars and if just one of FSD, robotics, energy, electric aviation works out that would just about cover the total valuation.
off_again said:
ID4 Production validation cars are already rolling off the line in Chattanooga, ahead of schedule. The US production facility was supposed to come online in late 2022, but when you have a factory turning out test cars now, clearly that means customer deliveries will start sooner. t.
I saw a id4 today used as a cab by Addison Lee, so VW have already started delivering themmatrignano said:
off_again said:
ID4 Production validation cars are already rolling off the line in Chattanooga, ahead of schedule. The US production facility was supposed to come online in late 2022, but when you have a factory turning out test cars now, clearly that means customer deliveries will start sooner. t.
I saw a id4 today used as a cab by Addison Lee, so VW have already started delivering themTalksteer said:
Kia/Hyundai make good EVs, however Tesla is already the same size as them in revenue terms so even if they clicked their fingers and went 100% EV today Tesla would pass them both in this calendar year.
You're assuming that Hyundai/Kia aren't also going to be growing at a prodigious rate. I think Hyundai/Kia re going to be reaping the rewards of the mainstream Western manufacturers getting left so far behind just as much as Tesla are, albeit in a slightly different way.Do I think Hyundai/Kia will be selling as many EVs as Tesla? No, at least not in the short term, but I don't think they're going to be orders of magnitude behind in a few years' time and I think they'll probably be some way ahead of anyone else unless one of the big Chinese companies really gets a foothold in the Western markets on top of their big domestic sales.
I wouldn't be surprised if the EV production of the European and (non-Tesla) American car companies for the next five or ten years is entirely limited by how many batteries they can actually lay their hands on.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 25th January 19:39
VW is most certainly not going to threaten Tesla, I have just cancelled my ID.3 order because of the drifting delivery times.
When we ordered it in July it was slated for build in late October and delivery in early December.
In the last week of November, we were told that the build had slipped to the second week of December.
On the 23rd of December, we were told that it had slipped to the second week of February.
Last week we were told it has slipped to the first week of April, at this point we have called it quits and cancelled.
As I understand it from the VW dealer, orders placed now have an indeterminate delivery date in 2023!
When we ordered it in July it was slated for build in late October and delivery in early December.
In the last week of November, we were told that the build had slipped to the second week of December.
On the 23rd of December, we were told that it had slipped to the second week of February.
Last week we were told it has slipped to the first week of April, at this point we have called it quits and cancelled.
As I understand it from the VW dealer, orders placed now have an indeterminate delivery date in 2023!
Yes I wanted to buy a new particular spec ID3 hoping that the software would have caught up. I was quoted at least 48 weeks delivery and even then some uncertainty. In early December I decided to order a Tesla Model 3 and expect it shortly. Communication has been excellent and I am looking forward to getting the well improved 2022 Model 3 in the coming weeks.
GrumpyDuck said:
VW is most certainly not going to threaten Tesla, I have just cancelled my ID.3 order because of the drifting delivery times.
When we ordered it in July it was slated for build in late October and delivery in early December.
In the last week of November, we were told that the build had slipped to the second week of December.
On the 23rd of December, we were told that it had slipped to the second week of February.
Last week we were told it has slipped to the first week of April, at this point we have called it quits and cancelled.
As I understand it from the VW dealer, orders placed now have an indeterminate delivery date in 2023!
The dealer will be delighted you've cancelled. Due to delays, you can flip one of these for an extra £5k When we ordered it in July it was slated for build in late October and delivery in early December.
In the last week of November, we were told that the build had slipped to the second week of December.
On the 23rd of December, we were told that it had slipped to the second week of February.
Last week we were told it has slipped to the first week of April, at this point we have called it quits and cancelled.
As I understand it from the VW dealer, orders placed now have an indeterminate delivery date in 2023!
For only a £250 deposit, you should have kept the order and flipped it yourself when it eventually arrives
oldmanbm said:
Yes I wanted to buy a new particular spec ID3 hoping that the software would have caught up. I was quoted at least 48 weeks delivery and even then some uncertainty. In early December I decided to order a Tesla Model 3 and expect it shortly. Communication has been excellent and I am looking forward to getting the well improved 2022 Model 3 in the coming weeks.
You will love it. Piginapoke said:
oldmanbm said:
Yes I wanted to buy a new particular spec ID3 hoping that the software would have caught up. I was quoted at least 48 weeks delivery and even then some uncertainty. In early December I decided to order a Tesla Model 3 and expect it shortly. Communication has been excellent and I am looking forward to getting the well improved 2022 Model 3 in the coming weeks.
You will love it. Tesla have a much better strategy in terms of end to end logistics
Tesla let it leave the factory unfinished, put it on a ship to its ongoing destination, and then look for unemployed people to finish the car when it arrives at the port - saving many weeks on delays, and also meaning, they can keep the factory running without filling up the factory car parks while cars wait for chips, eventually bottle necking production.
I'm not convinced it's the best strategy in terms of build quality/customer satisfaction but there is no denying that it keeps the supply chain moving at high pace.
What puts me off is that they look for agency staff/temp workers for short contracts (a few weeks) give them 1 x days training (after which they are called 'Tesla mechanics') and then they finish the car at the port.
A bunch of Model Y and 3 are on there way to Europe as we speak (5 ships as I understand it) and the cars aren't finished.
So I guess, pick your poison. Speed v possible quality issues
GrumpyDuck said:
VW is most certainly not going to threaten Tesla, I have just cancelled my ID.3 order because of the drifting delivery times.
When we ordered it in July it was slated for build in late October and delivery in early December.
In the last week of November, we were told that the build had slipped to the second week of December.
On the 23rd of December, we were told that it had slipped to the second week of February.
Last week we were told it has slipped to the first week of April, at this point we have called it quits and cancelled.
As I understand it from the VW dealer, orders placed now have an indeterminate delivery date in 2023!
Similar time frame for us but it'll still be the best way into an EV for us se we're holding out. When we ordered it in July it was slated for build in late October and delivery in early December.
In the last week of November, we were told that the build had slipped to the second week of December.
On the 23rd of December, we were told that it had slipped to the second week of February.
Last week we were told it has slipped to the first week of April, at this point we have called it quits and cancelled.
As I understand it from the VW dealer, orders placed now have an indeterminate delivery date in 2023!
I heard they'd upgraded the interiors anyway since we ordered so it's not all bad.
soupdragon1 said:
Piginapoke said:
oldmanbm said:
Yes I wanted to buy a new particular spec ID3 hoping that the software would have caught up. I was quoted at least 48 weeks delivery and even then some uncertainty. In early December I decided to order a Tesla Model 3 and expect it shortly. Communication has been excellent and I am looking forward to getting the well improved 2022 Model 3 in the coming weeks.
You will love it. Tesla have a much better strategy in terms of end to end logistics
Tesla let it leave the factory unfinished, put it on a ship to its ongoing destination, and then look for unemployed people to finish the car when it arrives at the port - saving many weeks on delays, and also meaning, they can keep the factory running without filling up the factory car parks while cars wait for chips, eventually bottle necking production.
I'm not convinced it's the best strategy in terms of build quality/customer satisfaction but there is no denying that it keeps the supply chain moving at high pace.
What puts me off is that they look for agency staff/temp workers for short contracts (a few weeks) give them 1 x days training (after which they are called 'Tesla mechanics') and then they finish the car at the port.
A bunch of Model Y and 3 are on there way to Europe as we speak (5 ships as I understand it) and the cars aren't finished.
So I guess, pick your poison. Speed v possible quality issues
Much lower down the automotive spectrum I know Dacia are shipping Dusters without built in sat nav with the intention of retrofitting it at a later date.
Apparently I ordered early enough that mine will be complete when it arrives.
The Chinese car manufacturers have been overlooked in this discussion. They have already been building electric cars at scale for their domestic market for years, and have developed very advanced technology. These manufacturers are now launching electric cars in Europe and the US, and early signs are that their quality of build and engineering is miles ahead of VW, and sometimes ahead of Tesla. And they are much cheaper. It will be interesting to see how things pan out, but those companies still using ICE platforms are dead meat. VW is probably one of the few legacy manufacturers who can survive.
Throttle Body said:
The Chinese car manufacturers have been overlooked in this discussion. They have already been building electric cars at scale for their domestic market for years, and have developed very advanced technology. These manufacturers are now launching electric cars in Europe and the US, and early signs are that their quality of build and engineering is miles ahead of VW, and sometimes ahead of Tesla. And they are much cheaper. It will be interesting to see how things pan out, but those companies still using ICE platforms are dead meat. VW is probably one of the few legacy manufacturers who can survive.
In general, yes, I think you are correct. But there are so many complexities to all of this, that I really dont know how to call it at the moment. On volume and ambition, the Chinese manufacturers have the edge, I believe. But there is a huge amount of badge and brand snobbery (and I mean the Chinese developed, designed and built cars - not the European market Chinese build Tesla's) that is keeping them out. They have tried multiple times to enter worldwide markets and failed. Ok, so they have been inferior cars / trucks, but even at a very competitive price, they failed to gain a foothold. Can they do it this time? Maybe, too early to tell, but the OEM's and Tesla know exactly what they are doing. From the design, branding, advertising and dealer networks, they are in a very strong position and its going to take a very compelling product to tempt people away from their experiences. No doubt there will be some successes and I think that Geely, Volvo and Polestar are doing it right, how that maps to other Chinese OEM's though, thats the big question.
Also, I would counter with the 'Chinese OEM's are ahead' comment - What is clear is that there is a lot of BS that gets thrown around at the moment. Elon is possibly the worst culprit, but that hasnt stopped other brands throwing anything at the wall to see if it sticks. Some of the fantastical stuff that comes out on EV's from China is frankly laughable. Yes, there are some legitimate companies who are trying to do the best thing, but its also peppered with lies and made-up products. Take the following:
Dongfeng launches solid state battery cars:
https://thedriven.io/2022/01/24/first-evs-with-sol...
Of course, a little digging later and you find this:
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/25/solid-state-e...
So its not quite a solid state battery after all? Oh wait, someone isnt quite telling the truth? Mmmm, who would have guessed it....
My point is yes, the Chinese are in an enviable position - great internal market, investment, focus, cheap manufacturing etc. But, what is clear is that they have a long way to go before adoption outside of their home market. And dont forget that the Chinese themselves still buy western cars by their droves and that includes Tesla too!
And that gets me to the final point - investments and boom / bust:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-20...
Thats not the article that I read, but the content is similar. Basically, China has a bunch of problems with its economy. Likely to ride it out, but debt is heavy there and its causing issues. It is also causing issues across car manufacturers, especially the start-up EV ones. Its been carnage recently and the central policy around pushing these high-tech areas has lead to a number of issues and problems. Yes, the more mature ones will survive (Nio being a good example), but in a tough market with poor financial controls and a centrally controlled economy that is heavily laden with debt, it is going to cause issues. Lets see what happens, but this is going to play heavy on the Chinese OEM's for a few more years and at which point, most of the Western and Eastern manufacturers will be either on par or ahead.
Not sure what will happen. I suspect there will be joint ventures followed by partial mergers and maybe even some buy-outs. We likely to see some more consolidation with the OEM's to leverage scale, and China will absolutely feature in that. What it looks like though? I think its fair to say, I am guessing.
Throttle Body said:
The Chinese car manufacturers have been overlooked in this discussion. They have already been building electric cars at scale for their domestic market for years, and have developed very advanced technology. These manufacturers are now launching electric cars in Europe and the US, and early signs are that their quality of build and engineering is miles ahead of VW, and sometimes ahead of Tesla. And they are much cheaper. It will be interesting to see how things pan out, but those companies still using ICE platforms are dead meat. VW is probably one of the few legacy manufacturers who can survive.
One of Munro's videos recently was him saying that the Chinese EV's coming over will be like a repeat of Japanese cars coming over in the latter few decades of the 20'th century and taking a massive bite out of the market of slow moving, underinvested domestic makers. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.I reckon VW will be just fine and will remain one of the biggest car manufacturers on the globe.
But... I also think their first foray in to EV, the ID. series, just isn't all that competitive. There's better EV's for the money with comparable space/seats, or close enough. Not a big deal in the longer term for VW but short term I think they simply misjudged things a little. The same for the e-tron actually. All just a bit.. staid. Could there not have been a bit more fun and power offered with these cars? It's a tricky one as VW as a brand generally doesn't offer the fastest/funnest cars compared to other brands they now own. But on the other hand, they're kind of a premium brand and in the world of EV, when you pay for a premium car you kind of expect it will have the power to excite and a few EV tech bells and whistles.
The ID.4 GTX seems like an attempt to put some EV fun back in to the offering but even that is underpowered and under-performing by some margin compared to what the competition will offer for the same money and same level or practicality.
Not that any of it matters these days. Good or not so good, new cars are in short supply so they can probably sell them faster than they can make them still!
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the likes of VW did end up trumping Tesla though. VW as a brand has the strength and loyal customer base to afford a few initial bumps in the road. Writing them off, given their experience, talent, resources and supplier base is a bit premature imo! Not least given the huge support the German government are giving to their domestic car industry players. They are doing all they can to ensure all German car makers are very well situated, assisted and motivated financially to make an excellent job of transitioning to EV only production.
But... I also think their first foray in to EV, the ID. series, just isn't all that competitive. There's better EV's for the money with comparable space/seats, or close enough. Not a big deal in the longer term for VW but short term I think they simply misjudged things a little. The same for the e-tron actually. All just a bit.. staid. Could there not have been a bit more fun and power offered with these cars? It's a tricky one as VW as a brand generally doesn't offer the fastest/funnest cars compared to other brands they now own. But on the other hand, they're kind of a premium brand and in the world of EV, when you pay for a premium car you kind of expect it will have the power to excite and a few EV tech bells and whistles.
The ID.4 GTX seems like an attempt to put some EV fun back in to the offering but even that is underpowered and under-performing by some margin compared to what the competition will offer for the same money and same level or practicality.
Not that any of it matters these days. Good or not so good, new cars are in short supply so they can probably sell them faster than they can make them still!
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the likes of VW did end up trumping Tesla though. VW as a brand has the strength and loyal customer base to afford a few initial bumps in the road. Writing them off, given their experience, talent, resources and supplier base is a bit premature imo! Not least given the huge support the German government are giving to their domestic car industry players. They are doing all they can to ensure all German car makers are very well situated, assisted and motivated financially to make an excellent job of transitioning to EV only production.
TheDeuce said:
I also think their first foray in to EV, the ID. series, just isn't all that competitive. There's better EV's for the money with comparable space/seats, or close enough. Not a big deal in the longer term for VW but short term I think they simply misjudged things a little. The same for the e-tron actually. All just a bit.. staid. Could there not have been a bit more fun and power offered with these cars? It's a tricky one as VW as a brand generally doesn't offer the fastest/funnest cars compared to other brands they now own. But on the other hand, they're kind of a premium brand and in the world of EV, when you pay for a premium car you kind of expect it will have the power to excite and a few EV tech bells and whistles.
It's not what they do though. They offer a place of comfort. Been shopping with my sister and her OH for a couple of weeks... ended up with the ID3.The ID3 is a pretty good package for the money though here.
A reasonably equipped ID3 undercuts the (imo vastly superior) Ioniq 5 and Tesla Model 3 start prices by a good 20%.
The only ones in the bracket were the Kona and while that's a good car on it's own, the ID3 just feels like the better overall package (performance, space).
They ignored MG completely as the VW is a VW... and it's German...
In short, they offer an ok package without being great, with ok performance and ok looks. All very safe combined with a strong brand, hard to ignore.
Their current delivery date is set to October... hope they don't get any bad news on that front as we've heard from others.
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