I'm a dinosaur - educate/change my mind

[HustleRussell]

EVs starting to look very compelling in company car comparisons. I am sure that we are seeing the beginning of the cheapening of EVs for the masses as starting around nowish there are going to be a large number of used EVs and that number will be ever-growing.

I am sure that in not much more than 10 years I will be in the EV daily and ICE toy car scenario.

[Volvolover]

SWoll said:

Volvolover said:

SWoll said:

Volvolover said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

Depends on your usage. Takes <30 seconds of a night to plug the car in (like to keep it topped up just in case), and then wake up with a full tank every morning (200-250 miles).

I've certainly found it a lot less hassle overall than what I remember of queuing at the local petrol station.

30 Seconds a night for a month is still way less than I spend getting fuel at the moment.
Is getting your lead out and back in really a combined 30 seconds? 15 seconds out and plugged in and 15 seconds to put it back in the boot? Is it convenient when peeing down with rain in your nice work gear?
Do you spend time looking at the electric bill working out what the car cost etc?

Obviously individual circumstances differ but presently for me, spending waaay less than 15 minutes a month topping the car up at the local shell seems a lot less hassle

That's to keep it topped up for 250 miles per day, every day. We could charge once per week to cover 1000 miles per month, so 2 minutes in total . As the car and charger are 2 steps from my back door and the cable is always at hand 30 seconds is probably overselling it TBH, just done a quick test and it was closer to 15 in reality. No worries about weather and work gear, doesn't get plugged in until we're off to bed and I'm locking up for the night so normally in my PJ's at that point.

The thing that always amuses me with these discussions is that the EV owners will have run both ICE and EV and are able to comment based on actual real life experience yet still get challenged by people who haven't.

No need to look at the leccy bill either BTW, I know it costs a significantly less than petrol (even with the price hike) so why worry about the details. Our current 400bhp SUV EV costs about 6p per mile in 'fuel', or the equivalent of 110MPG at current petrol prices.

doesthiswork said:

I'm not always convinced by the argument that charging is less hassle than getting petrol either. I will be charging from a three pin socket in the shed, at least twice a week which will involve unravelling the extension lead, getting the regular cable out of the boot and plugging it all in, in any weather, then coiling up wet cables several hours later. Yes I know it's great to always have your car fully 'fuelled' car from home, and I don't need to worry about panic buying, but going to a petrol station once a week or so really isn't a great hardship. Plus I'll miss buying a KitKat Chunky every time I'm there.

Depends on your setup obviously, can only speak from personal experience. Queues for pumps waiting for someone to do a shop, broken pay at pump machines, queues in the kiosk I seem to remember were a fairly common occurrence.

And as much as you might miss a KK chunky, I can assure you your waistline won't.

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 3rd March 15:03

Riiiight. So popping outside in your pjs before bed when it’s 0 degrees in the winter sounds really convenient

I’ll pass on that method .

I’m sure you could make up a more appealing scenario

[SWoll]

Volvolover said:

Riiiight. So popping outside in your pjs before bed when it’s 0 degrees in the winter sounds really convenient

I’ll pass on that method .

I’m sure you could make up a more appealing scenario

It's 2 steps outside the door, if that worries you no matter the weather conditions I'd suggest you need to man up a bit.

Why would I feel the need to make up a scenario? Honestly..

[RobbyJ]

I went from a 750BHP Audi RS7 to a Tesla Model S and I don't regret it for a second. Why, I just felt like giving an EV a go, I get it's not everyones cup of tea. I've been a petrol head my entire life, but for me personally the pros of an EV far outweigh the cons.

I genuinely don't want to go back to ICE after owning my Tesla for a year. Is the Tesla perfect, HELL NO but am I now totally addicted to instant crazy torque, yes, has that party piece got old for me, no, do I love the comfort/ relative silence and running cost on a long run, yes.

[off_again]

doesthiswork said:

I'm not always convinced by the argument that charging is less hassle than getting petrol either. I will be charging from a three pin socket in the shed, at least twice a week which will involve unravelling the extension lead, getting the regular cable out of the boot and plugging it all in, in any weather, then coiling up wet cables several hours later. Yes I know it's great to always have your car fully 'fuelled' car from home, and I don't need to worry about panic buying, but going to a petrol station once a week or so really isn't a great hardship. Plus I'll miss buying a KitKat Chunky every time I'm there.

You raise a good point - and EV owner is still really only those who it fits with at the moment. I totally understand that I am lucky - I have a large driveway, a 2 car garage and no access to the public. I can park our i3 at the house and charge without a problem. And if its raining (or going to rain), then I can park the car in the garage and charge there also.

Its all very easy and I dont have any issues - but I do totally understand that this isnt available for all. When you have a lack of coverage from the weather and lack of space to get to the car / charger easily it suddenly gets a little more difficult. Totally understand that. And being able to drive to a covered fuel station, fill up in less than 10 mins AND get a quick snack....



Like I said, an EV isnt really ready for everyone, yet. But for those that it does work, it has a lot of convenience.

[skilly1]

Volvolover said:

Riiiight. So popping outside in your pjs before bed when it’s 0 degrees in the winter sounds really convenient

I’ll pass on that method .

I’m sure you could make up a more appealing scenario

I have cable tethered to my charger. I pull up, plug cable in and walk inside the house. Takes all of 10secs. Can’t understand why you want a removable charging cable at home. Most EV’s come with a extra cable in the boot for other use.

[caziques]

I've just had to travel from Christchurch to Nelson (New Zealand) to do a couple of jobs.

Normally I use an eNV200 as a daily, and the Mrs Caziques uses a very early Leaf. The range on both of these is about 60 miles, so somewhat limited. Both get charged at night, 5p kWhr (plus solar).

I dragged out my Honda Prelude for this trip. It's an auto so wonderful to drive. The trip (500 miles), will cost about 90 pounds - not much less than the electricity to run two EVs for a year.

Next car will be a longer range EV, no way would I consider buying another ICE vehicle.

One big advantage with an EV, a very accurate "range to run out" gauge - although it is more difficult to carry a spare can of fuel.

[TheDeuce]

Volvolover said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

Well... it's not utter nonsense because I've lived with the EV for two years now, in my case at least, it's definitely true. I have charged en-route three times in two years, once when I didn't need to - but it was free so... I've done about 18k I think.

It obviously depends upon an individuals journey/mileage profile but I expect the vast majority with a 200+ mile range car would only need to exceed that in a single journey once or twice a year. Even on the occasions they do need to charge, mostly they won't need to fully charge either, just enough to safely get the journey done.

[TheDeuce]

Volvolover said:

Riiiight. So popping outside in your pjs before bed when it’s 0 degrees in the winter sounds really convenient

I’ll pass on that method .

I’m sure you could make up a more appealing scenario

In what world would a person wait until it's time to put their pyjamas on and then go out to plug their car in!?

You just plug in when you return home from your previous journey, if the car needs it. You don't return home, go in, then come back out hours later and plug it in

[TheDeuce]

Volvolover said:

SWoll said:

Volvolover said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

Depends on your usage. Takes <30 seconds of a night to plug the car in (like to keep it topped up just in case), and then wake up with a full tank every morning (200-250 miles).

I've certainly found it a lot less hassle overall than what I remember of queuing at the local petrol station.

30 Seconds a night for a month is still way less than I spend getting fuel at the moment.
Is getting your lead out and back in really a combined 30 seconds? 15 seconds out and plugged in and 15 seconds to put it back in the boot? Is it convenient when peeing down with rain in your nice work gear?
Do you spend time looking at the electric bill working out what the car cost etc?

Obviously individual circumstances differ but presently for me, spending waaay less than 15 minutes a month topping the car up at the local shell seems a lot less hassle

He said <30 seconds. Different people have different setups of course, but I take about 10 seconds to plug in and do so about twice a week. About 8.6 minutes a year.

I used to fill up the diesel about 3 times a month, took about 5 minutes if using pay at pump I suppose. I'd have to add a couple of extra minutes on to that as an average though as sometimes pay@pump not available and quite often I'd go a little out of my way specifically to fill up. Occasionally I'd forget and then make a dedicated trip to fill up ahead a long journey the following day.

It's all easier when you can just add the miles you need at home. I wouldn't go back, you'll be hard pushed to find an EV driver that would.

[JonnyVTEC]

stopping to put fuel in feels much like shovelling coal compared to plugging in.

[anonymous-user]

For me the attraction is the performance relative to running costs.

I’m coming from a 2.0tdi with 204bhp and the most powerful car I’ve had.

My on order EV has 544 bhp and will be cheaper to run. What’s not to like.

With salary sacrifice the total monthly cost is on a par with my current 2.0 tdi once I add in insurance.

So for the same monthly payment I am swapping a £40k 2.0tdi for a £65k 544 bhp rocket with the latest technology. I see the tax breaks as being a sweet spot at the moment. Post 2025 who knows what the tax will be so I’m choosing to experience a fast Ev before the tax man wants a bigger take.

[kurokawa]

skilly1 said:

I have cable tethered to my charger. I pull up, plug cable in and walk inside the house. Takes all of 10secs. Can’t understand why you want a removable charging cable at home. Most EV’s come with a extra cable in the boot for other use.

I have untethered one, prefer it look more tidy
come back from work, open the boot, plug in and went back in the house, less than 20s
whereas, my other car a Cooper S, I have to take a detour, queue at the pump, wipe my hand if the previous user make a mess. Do it every week or 1.5 week, each time make my journey more than 15-20 minutes longer

[TheDeuce]

One thing the OP said (honestly, to his credit) was that he was used to the routine and method of re-fuelling an ICE, and of course anything 'new' that replaces something you've done for a very long time is going to lead to a little trepidation.

But I think a commonly misunderstood part of EV ownership is that actually, for most of the time - sometimes all the time, there is no EV equivalent of 'going to get fuel'. There is nothing new to learn or get used to - you charge at home so an EV becomes just like any other appliance the OP might have that they plug in to charge. Mobile phone being the obvious example.

I recall when I first heard of EV charging times years ago, I scoffed because I compared it directly to how long it takes to get fuel. Which was illogical but until a person really considers owning an EV and takes a proper look at how many miles they do and journey lengths, it's easy to lazily assume it's the same deal an ICE but instead of refilling quickly you have to wait around for hours.

[OutInTheShed]

NerveAgent said:

What you like and what is considered desirable is not as “fixed” as you think. As technology and available products change, most peoples “wants” shifts faster than you can imagine.

^^^^ This ^^^

Pretty sure I'm up for 1 more IC car, but the horizon you can see is not very far these days.
10 years ago, someone in my situation would probably be sat here thinking ' I'll buy a nice car now I've settled down and it will do me ten years, or I know I can sell it for fairly good money in 5 years' time'.

I feel you cannot see that far ahead now.

The banger-o-nomics of electric sheds don't quite line up yet, but they are getting there.

For a runabout 2nd car, the cheapest thing to buy is what? A Leaf for about £6k?
Which has maybe got 60k battery miles left in it?
Call that 10p a mile in depreciation and total cost per mile is probably in the same area as a Polo.

I've never understood people paying 5 figures for a car and then blathering about 'economy'.


I suspect I'm looking for a mid-size shed for around £5k. If I keep it a few years, mid-scale BEVs might be 5k cheaper by then.
I haven't done the numbers on battery write down any bigger/better BEVs, but would be interested if anyone has.
Although there is not much real world data yet.

[OutInTheShed]

TheDeuce said:

One thing the OP said (honestly, to his credit) was that he was used to the routine and method of re-fuelling an ICE, and of course anything 'new' that replaces something you've done for a very long time is going to lead to a little trepidation.

But I think a commonly misunderstood part of EV ownership is that actually, for most of the time - sometimes all the time, there is no EV equivalent of 'going to get fuel'. There is nothing new to learn or get used to - you charge at home so an EV becomes just like any other appliance the OP might have that they plug in to charge. Mobile phone being the obvious example.

I recall when I first heard of EV charging times years ago, I scoffed because I compared it directly to how long it takes to get fuel. Which was illogical but until a person really considers owning an EV and takes a proper look at how many miles they do and journey lengths, it's easy to lazily assume it's the same deal an ICE but instead of refilling quickly you have to wait around for hours.

Good point well made.
If you own a crap petrol car with poor tank range (in relation to how you're using the car) or do proper miles on a bike, you realise what a time wasting thing buying petrol actually is. When I went from needing fuel more than once a week to having a car with a 600 mile range, I felt I'd got rid of a lot of pointless queueing chores. And that was before I moved to the boondocks of Dorset where fuel stations are further apart and sometimes close at teatime.

[Terminator X]

Delboy_trotter said:

Whether I like it or not ICE is on it's last legs for 'new' vehicles weather I like it or not, that's the agenda of the powers that be

Now nothing makes me turn off the stereo and wind down the window for the sound of a throaty V8 or a modified classic that could wake the devil himself and when it comes to EV's i am the first to admit I'm a dinosaur and I like burning my recycled ones as my power source, but i have to face the reality that the next car I buy as my daily (used rather than new) will likely be my last ICE car - after that the reality is I will be forced into an EV and my toys will be the ICE vehicles, and yes its sad but technology moves on

Do i think EV's are the ultimate solution? Maybe/Maybe not - but they are a stepping stone that isn't going to go away, as a dyed in the wool petrolhead i can make a 100 excuses for not owning an EV right now most of which are probably crud, but its also based on the familiarity - with an ICE car i drive it for 500 miles, it tells me it needs more fuel, i get it and then do another 500 miles and the process takes 10 mins and is quantifiable with a bill at then end and is best likened to that old pair of walking boots that you refuse to chuck out because its comfortable and familiar

EV's however are unfamiliar - instantly you start to think how much the household electric bill is going to go up by - even though you won't be spending £60/70/80 on fuel, the thought of the household electric bill going up by even £10 however is morally outrageous

Now here's the thing - I like a manual, I don't dislike an auto, but I prefer a manual, I like the familiarity of filling up with fuel and understand BHP, ft.lb of torque, and MPG etc but if you look at my daily use case I could go EV, my commute is 15 miles each way, and is around 7500 miles a year, for which and EV would work, however its unfamiliar and the fear of the unknown, how much extra would the leccy bill be, why should if I do a long journey have to stop part way for 30 mins and recharge I'm impatient and don't want to stop which my ICE engine lets me do and I can do the whole round trip and only refuel a week later, instead of constantly charging - and does that make me out of touch and a dinosaur? Probably but i also know that i will have to make the change at some point, but its knowing where that point is that is difficult to work out

Just my 2p and thoughts obviously, but its where my current mindset is - but I'm open to be swayed, like i said my next daily car will whichever way i cut it likely be the last ICE car i buy, which saddens me but also something i can't avoid/need to think about and educate myself

Cover your eyes and ears then as come 01 Apr we will all be facing much higher bills.

You don't have to buy EV either just by ICE until 2030 then switch to older cars after that. Imho synthetic fuel will save ICE anyway and the various Govts will do a U Turn.

TX.

[TheDeuce]

Terminator X said:

Cover your eyes and ears then as come 01 Apr we will all be facing much higher bills.

You don't have to buy EV either just by ICE until 2030 then switch to older cars after that. Imho synthetic fuel will save ICE anyway and the various Govts will do a U Turn.

TX.

I see problems..

If you buy you last ICE in 2030, or realistically, even in the next couple of years, the person you sell it to after you're done with it will be thinking about the effect the incoming ban and changing attitudes will have on it's future value. I think as this snowballs there will become a devaluing and reluctance to 'get stuck with' an ICE. There will still be millions of them in the UK and a drop in value, change in attitude doesn't need to put off any passionate petrol head of course.

Yes to higher electricity bills. Yes to higher fuel bills too! That's all so fked up at present that we might as well just put that side of the debate away..

As for synthetic fuel - it only solves half of ICE problems in terms of pollution and overall impact. EV goes further. I can't see the governments doing a u-turn this time, I don't see there is any pressure on them to do so at all, the car industry is getting on with EV very well already and the sales are smashing the most optimistic predictions. The reality is, that most western government has revised the deadlines they set by bringing the forwards - the opposite of a U-turn. Our government bought the date for banning all ICE sales and production forward by a full five years.

[Terminator X]

TheDeuce said:

Terminator X said:

Cover your eyes and ears then as come 01 Apr we will all be facing much higher bills.

You don't have to buy EV either just by ICE until 2030 then switch to older cars after that. Imho synthetic fuel will save ICE anyway and the various Govts will do a U Turn.

TX.

I see problems..

If you buy you last ICE in 2030, or realistically, even in the next couple of years, the person you sell it to after you're done with it will be thinking about the effect the incoming ban and changing attitudes will have on it's future value. I think as this snowballs there will become a devaluing and reluctance to 'get stuck with' an ICE. There will still be millions of them in the UK and a drop in value, change in attitude doesn't need to put off any passionate petrol head of course.

Yes to higher electricity bills. Yes to higher fuel bills too! That's all so fked up at present that we might as well just put that side of the debate away..

As for synthetic fuel - it only solves half of ICE problems in terms of pollution and overall impact. EV goes further. I can't see the governments doing a u-turn this time, I don't see there is any pressure on them to do so at all, the car industry is getting on with EV very well already and the sales are smashing the most optimistic predictions. The reality is, that most western government has revised the deadlines they set by bringing the forwards - the opposite of a U-turn. Our government bought the date for banning all ICE sales and production forward by a full five years.

I will bet you £10 they roll back on the ban before it comes in to force.

TX.

[Evanivitch]

TheDeuce said:

Volvolover said:

Riiiight. So popping outside in your pjs before bed when it’s 0 degrees in the winter sounds really convenient

I’ll pass on that method .

I’m sure you could make up a more appealing scenario

In what world would a person wait until it's time to put their pyjamas on and then go out to plug their car in!?

You just plug in when you return home from your previous journey, if the car needs it. You don't return home, go in, then come back out hours later and plug it in

I don't think VolvoLover is aware of charge timing.

I tell my car I want it to charge during the cheap overnight period. If I want to to charge immediately I press 3 buttons to override that default preference.

Some people use a smart charger and an app. I use a dumb charger and a car without internet connectivity. A charge costs by £0.55 instead of £1.75.

I do currently have an untethered cable I plug in both ends each time. But that's because I have a Type 1 car currently and the next one will inevitably be a Type 2.