EVs and Motorways
Discussion
gangzoom said:
Any EV owner who would disagree with your evaluation of the situation is lying
Luckily most people don't have the driving demands/needs of the OP.
And I imagine that as more employers want the kudos and credit for their staff using EVs we will see employment roles that require such anomalous driving on a regular basis being changed to end that need. Luckily most people don't have the driving demands/needs of the OP.
gangzoom said:
DonkeyApple said:
The idea of a hard day at work and then willfully hanging around a motorway services for an hour in the wind and rain of winter instead of getting home! I think you're insane for even contemplating such foolishness. 
Any EV owner who would disagree with your evaluation of the situation is lyingLuckily most people don't have the driving demands/needs of the OP.
Dave Hedgehog said:
gangzoom said:
DonkeyApple said:
The idea of a hard day at work and then willfully hanging around a motorway services for an hour in the wind and rain of winter instead of getting home! I think you're insane for even contemplating such foolishness.
Any EV owner who would disagree with your evaluation of the situation is lyingLuckily most people don't have the driving demands/needs of the OP.
Not for me on anything like a regular basis as mentioned above, occasionally fine.
Dave Hedgehog said:
the idea of doing a full days work and having to drive 300 miles is far more horrific to me than spending an hour at a service station watching netfix and youtube in my car
Potentially two separate elements at play. Firstly that massive amount of daily driving is part of a job. A job that one has accepted in exchange for a payment. Conversely, the decision to either refuel quickly or not at all, versus sitting for an hour watching TV boils down to how one values their leisure time or how much more pleasant sitting alone in a car at a motorway services is to someone versus being at home. Miserable home life or an abnormal one of sitting in a car at a motorway services isn't impossible but would generally be abnormal.
DonkeyApple said:
Potentially two separate elements at play. Firstly that massive amount of daily driving is part of a job. A job that one has accepted in exchange for a payment. Conversely, the decision to either refuel quickly or not at all, versus sitting for an hour watching TV boils down to how one values their leisure time or how much more pleasant sitting alone in a car at a motorway services is to someone versus being at home.
Miserable home life or an abnormal one of sitting in a car at a motorway services isn't impossible but would generally be abnormal.
When we first got our Tesla I did fairly regularly pop to our local Waitrose late in the evening for an hour whilst the wife was watching some rubbish on the TV in order to get a free charge on their 50kW Polar unit and some peace and quiet. Mug of tea, packet of biscuits, an hour of Netfix. Miserable home life or an abnormal one of sitting in a car at a motorway services isn't impossible but would generally be abnormal.
The bloody thing broke down in Jan 2020 2 months after we got the car and they've not bothered to repair or replace it.
SWoll said:
When we first got our Tesla I did fairly regularly pop to our local Waitrose late in the evening for an hour whilst the wife was watching some rubbish on the TV in order to get a free charge on their 50kW Polar unit and some peace and quiet. Mug of tea, packet of biscuits, an hour of Netfix.
The bloody thing broke down in Jan 2020 2 months after we got the car and they've not bothered to repair or replace it.
With 'Free for life' Supercharging on our Tesla, I could go and charge it up at the Fosse park shopping center weekly, rather than charging up at home. Its a 15 minute drive to the charger, 1hr charging up to add about 65-70kWh, 15 minutes back home. At the new more expensive off peak electricity of 19p/kWh, that's a potential saving of £12.35 in exchange of 90 minutes of my time. The bloody thing broke down in Jan 2020 2 months after we got the car and they've not bothered to repair or replace it.
I don't mind stopping every 2-3hrs or so when driving a long road trip with the family, especially when everyone needs a break anyways. But interms of viewing it as work hours, £8/hr that's below minimum wage isn't it? I think easy to loss perspective when it comes to anything that is offered 'free'.
On the subject of range, Autocar has this report on winter vs summer range tests; the results are very much as many users have mentioned on here.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/move-electric/e...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/move-electric/e...
Covid has highlighted journalists don’t understand maths and the significance of numbers. The article also shows it. Is the Porsche worse? Its closest to its rating in winter out of all if them and the drop compared to summer is only so large because it’s summer performance is better than rated. You can spin stories lots of ways but the Porsche is the one to get if you want the closest to rated performance all year round.
The bmw iX3 also gets criticised for being a converted ICE and yet also does really well against its rating in winter.
The bmw iX3 also gets criticised for being a converted ICE and yet also does really well against its rating in winter.
Motorway driving might not be the best place for an EV and it will totally depend on the type of car - a Tesla (most to be honest) is going to be pretty slippery through the air and their drivetrain is in the top 5 for efficiency at higher speeds (if not the most efficient, just hedging my bets there). This is one reason why their range numbers are so good.
Our i3 on the other hand, well not so much. It might be light and skinny tires do make a difference, but its hardly the best. Rough figures that I can find show the i3 is around 0.3 and the Model S is 0.24 (figures might vary slightly). Thats a pretty big difference and yes, it absolutely hits the range as a result. That said though, the GOM on the i3 does like to jump up when we get on a freeway though. A steady 70-75MPH will typically give us the high-end of the range that we would expect, topping out at about 125 miles or so - which is slightly up over the normal 105 - 110 miles range we seem to consistently average.
One thing to note though, as others have mentioned, an EV on the motorway is a pretty nice place to be. The i3 certainly isnt the quietest or the best riding on the motorway, but any EV is going to be pretty damn quiet in comparison to many other cars. Turn cruise control on, put some decent music on and relax. I know many ICE cars can be very quiet too, but many an EV is quieter, which is nice. A pleasant place to be when crunching through the miles.
Our i3 on the other hand, well not so much. It might be light and skinny tires do make a difference, but its hardly the best. Rough figures that I can find show the i3 is around 0.3 and the Model S is 0.24 (figures might vary slightly). Thats a pretty big difference and yes, it absolutely hits the range as a result. That said though, the GOM on the i3 does like to jump up when we get on a freeway though. A steady 70-75MPH will typically give us the high-end of the range that we would expect, topping out at about 125 miles or so - which is slightly up over the normal 105 - 110 miles range we seem to consistently average.
One thing to note though, as others have mentioned, an EV on the motorway is a pretty nice place to be. The i3 certainly isnt the quietest or the best riding on the motorway, but any EV is going to be pretty damn quiet in comparison to many other cars. Turn cruise control on, put some decent music on and relax. I know many ICE cars can be very quiet too, but many an EV is quieter, which is nice. A pleasant place to be when crunching through the miles.
Mr E said:
Air resistance is proportional to velocity squared.
Or. The faster you go, the more power you need.
EVs are just fine on motorways. As long as you have sufficient power. On the plus side, most services will have decent charging facilities.
Referring to sufficient amounts of power when talking about drag needs a bit of care.Or. The faster you go, the more power you need.
EVs are just fine on motorways. As long as you have sufficient power. On the plus side, most services will have decent charging facilities.
The resistance, or more accurately, the force on the car, is proportional to speed squared.
But since power is defined by a time component, the power required to overcome drag is proportional to speed cubed. Basically you need lots more power but because you spend less time over a certain distance at a higher speed, the energy consumed over that distance is proportional to the speed squared.
Achieving higher top speeds for a given car requires rapidly increasing amount of extra power because of the cube law relationship.
Achieving a certain range at a given speed is defined by how much energy you have available, the power available from the drivetrain is only defining whether or not you can reach that speed, not how long you can stay there.
TLDR: Drag force and therefore energy consumed per unit of distance is proportional to speed squared. The power required is proportional to speed cubed.
There's a fella on SpeakEV who does around 50k miles pa, all over the UK (& abroad).....
Some of this is a mindset thing. Some of it perhaps getting the right EV for the job. There are EVs with a range over 300 miles: yes, winter can impact that, but a 60 mile top-up at a really fast charger might take 10 minutes - no less than a full fill-up for an ICE. The infrastructure is improving all the time.
We had a round trip to north London earlier this week for a show at the RAH.
90 miles there & 90 miles back in our KonaEV, home with about 50 in the 'tank', and a total cost of around £2 for that energy.....travelling at the speed limit (I generally do an indicated 75 on m/ways, and like many motorways, the M1 has a wealth of roadworks that slow cars and improve the range!).
Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!
I know some ICE cars have this, but I would add that adaptive cruise control makes such journeys very relaxing - the speeding up, slowing down is far less stressful in the Kona than any other car I've driven.
What I am less keen on in the Kona are the 1,000 mile journeys...we are in the Alps this weekend, and will take the XC60 lump - also relaxing on those runs, more spacious for kit and a faster fill up, although we will likely get to Les Arcs in one tank from Calais. It also has adaptive cruise, which is superb on motorways (& round town, to be honest). Overall, we do about 80-85% of all our driving with the Kona now. Also appreciate we have always been a 2-car family & are lucky to be in a position to have our own driveway charging.
Some of this is a mindset thing. Some of it perhaps getting the right EV for the job. There are EVs with a range over 300 miles: yes, winter can impact that, but a 60 mile top-up at a really fast charger might take 10 minutes - no less than a full fill-up for an ICE. The infrastructure is improving all the time.
We had a round trip to north London earlier this week for a show at the RAH.
90 miles there & 90 miles back in our KonaEV, home with about 50 in the 'tank', and a total cost of around £2 for that energy.....travelling at the speed limit (I generally do an indicated 75 on m/ways, and like many motorways, the M1 has a wealth of roadworks that slow cars and improve the range!).
Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!
I know some ICE cars have this, but I would add that adaptive cruise control makes such journeys very relaxing - the speeding up, slowing down is far less stressful in the Kona than any other car I've driven.
What I am less keen on in the Kona are the 1,000 mile journeys...we are in the Alps this weekend, and will take the XC60 lump - also relaxing on those runs, more spacious for kit and a faster fill up, although we will likely get to Les Arcs in one tank from Calais. It also has adaptive cruise, which is superb on motorways (& round town, to be honest). Overall, we do about 80-85% of all our driving with the Kona now. Also appreciate we have always been a 2-car family & are lucky to be in a position to have our own driveway charging.
Oh, and forgot - an EV might not be at its most efficient at higher and consistent speeds, but its still cheaper to charge and cover miles in comparison with an ICE. So yeah, you arent getting the best benefit, but its still going to be cheaper, though the gap will close. Just watch out for those chargers that are super expensive in some locations!
mikeiow said:
Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!
Don't forget that would 150 miles out. Stop. Carry out the job you've travelled there to do and then return 150 miles. If you lived quite close to the motorway network then each leg is going to be not much more than two hours. I think it would be fair to say that if someone can't concentrate for such a short period then should they be doing a job which requires that 'skill'?
gangzoom said:
With 'Free for life' Supercharging on our Tesla, I could go and charge it up at the Fosse park shopping center weekly, rather than charging up at home. Its a 15 minute drive to the charger, 1hr charging up to add about 65-70kWh, 15 minutes back home. At the new more expensive off peak electricity of 19p/kWh, that's a potential saving of £12.35 in exchange of 90 minutes of my time.
I don't mind stopping every 2-3hrs or so when driving a long road trip with the family, especially when everyone needs a break anyways. But interms of viewing it as work hours, £8/hr that's below minimum wage isn't it? I think easy to loss perspective when it comes to anything that is offered 'free'.
I am liking the man-maths there...I don't mind stopping every 2-3hrs or so when driving a long road trip with the family, especially when everyone needs a break anyways. But interms of viewing it as work hours, £8/hr that's below minimum wage isn't it? I think easy to loss perspective when it comes to anything that is offered 'free'.
And yes, I would probably do the same thing. I am the git that turns down the thermostat in winter because its 'cheaper to put a jumper on'. And my wife is suffering the infamous flushes at the moment. Flings open the doors and windows, which I then go around and close immediately. Its cheaper for you to go outside than it is to heat the whole house again.....
Yeah, I am not going to stay married for too much longer at this rate. Or murdered in bed, one of those.
BEV > Airport > Plane > Airport > BEV > Destination?
The OP is in a minority of 'not very many'.
Very few people do more than a handful of 300 mile journeys in a year.
I do maybe a dozen, and very often they are six hours, a long time with no break, basically nobody will be encouraging that.
I generally split the driving with my wife on these trips.
A hybrid might be an answer.
Or, if there turns out to be significant demand for such travel, they might even drag the railways into the 21st century.
Motorail anyone?
Seriously, policy makers and car companies don't have the OP's wish list as a design goal.
People will just have to adapt to what is possible and allowed, just as we've adapted to things like speed limits and drink-drive laws.
The OP is in a minority of 'not very many'.
Very few people do more than a handful of 300 mile journeys in a year.
I do maybe a dozen, and very often they are six hours, a long time with no break, basically nobody will be encouraging that.
I generally split the driving with my wife on these trips.
A hybrid might be an answer.
Or, if there turns out to be significant demand for such travel, they might even drag the railways into the 21st century.
Motorail anyone?
Seriously, policy makers and car companies don't have the OP's wish list as a design goal.
People will just have to adapt to what is possible and allowed, just as we've adapted to things like speed limits and drink-drive laws.
stargazer30 said:
One thing I noticed going ice to ev. You don’t get free heat from the engine. It’s a bit weird 10miles in getting cold hands. EVs have heat pumps but that heat comes at a cost in power and range.
Good point - most EV's have a connected app that allows you to set a departure time though. If you remember (I usually dont) to set it say 10 minutes before you leave, you can have a nice toasty or cooled interior ready to go. Even better if you left it on charge and havent used the battery.You can obviously get remote start ICE cars, thats fine. But you really shouldnt use that feature in a garage! And the BMW has a little feature that pops up as you exit the car to 'keep the climate temp'. One click of the iDrive button and you can dash into a shop and come back to a cool / warm car without a problem. Pretty sure other cars can do the same thing.
SDK said:
stargazer30 said:
One thing I noticed going ice to ev. You don’t get free heat from the engine. It’s a bit weird 10miles in getting cold hands. EVs have heat pumps but that heat comes at a cost in power and range.
That's what heated steering wheels are for !
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