Tesla Model 3 revealed
Discussion
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Is it worth asking why if Tesla received 400,000 pre-orders for the 3, BMW hasn't exactly had a comparable result with their i3?
The i3 is still of that generation of electric cars which need to show how modern they are by looking wacky. The Teslas don't, to the point of looking a bit generic. I guess the i3 is also a small car, and doesn't have the performance the 3 is promising. Almost every EV looks odd or like a 60's movie prop. I want to like the i3 but it looks weird on those bike tyres.
p1stonhead said:
Coz the i3 is f
k ugly 
Yep this, as has been posted on this thread a few times already including me, why the hell are most EV's just so damn ugly? If you absolutely feel the need to make it futuristic then just do a better job.k ugly When I think of futuristic looking EV's I think of this
but instead we got this.
Invest all that money in your future EV car then make it look like that, BMW, really what where you thinking? The i8 is a much better effort style wise but it costs £100k
This I think is one of the main reasons why the Model 3 sold out within hours, it looks just like a normal car which just happens to run on electric. Yes the attractive cost of running an EV is one of the main draws but it still has to appeal aesthetically and things like the i3 just don't.
Guvernator said:
This I think is one of the main reasons why the Model 3 sold out within hours, it looks just like a normal car which just happens to run on electric. .
Agreed that looks are a major issue. However, I'd argue one of the main reasons the M3 got so many pre-orders was that Musk sold it as the 'next iPhone' with a long delivery queue and a no-commitment deposit. Until they start actually selling, it's not clear how many people put down a deposit because they thought they could sell it on at profit, how many people put down a deposit because new shiny and how many had a realistic idea of what they would get for their money. You'd be forgiven for thinking Musk had suggested that you could now buy the $70,000 car that everyone had been talking about for just $35,000.
In short, it was a triumph of marketing over actual product offering. If the priority for consumers was having an electric car, but not looking 'weird', they could have bought the Chevy which was actually physically available when the Model 3 was first announced. The lack of attention it continues to get speaks volumes about how much consumers actually care about the power train in their vehicle.
Interesting that range and looks appear to be the key reasons being proffered.
Range I think is pertinent as range anxiety still appears to be an issue, even though it is often a problem being made out to exist by the types of people who fill up their ICE with £3.57p worth of fuel every day. It's certainly poor value when you consider that the bulk of the cost isn't actually the batteries.
Looks I'm not sure sure about. If the one thing the UK market shouts every second of every minute of every day it's that people geneuinely don't concern themselves over the look but with the badge. There are plenty of hopping cars out there that people don't lambast because they have a German badge on the back not a Korean one.
But, even these two perfectly logical suggestions wouldn't appear to fully justify the reason why the Tesla 3 has a pending order book that dwarfs all the other EVs currently available to buy right now. I do think that there is something stronger at play and it could be either very good for Tesla or terrible. It could be that they've managed to seize the interest of the Millenials where the mainstays have been sailing badly or it could be that it's just an initial wave of bearded nerdlings that will be exhausted and reveal the true underlying demand for EVs at their current higher cost than ICE?
The run to 2020 as the 3 rolls out and shows the depth of demand and as all mainstream manufacturers start to deliver pure EVs is going to be one of the most genuinely interesting and exciting times for the automotive industry in many of our living memories.
Range I think is pertinent as range anxiety still appears to be an issue, even though it is often a problem being made out to exist by the types of people who fill up their ICE with £3.57p worth of fuel every day. It's certainly poor value when you consider that the bulk of the cost isn't actually the batteries.
Looks I'm not sure sure about. If the one thing the UK market shouts every second of every minute of every day it's that people geneuinely don't concern themselves over the look but with the badge. There are plenty of hopping cars out there that people don't lambast because they have a German badge on the back not a Korean one.
But, even these two perfectly logical suggestions wouldn't appear to fully justify the reason why the Tesla 3 has a pending order book that dwarfs all the other EVs currently available to buy right now. I do think that there is something stronger at play and it could be either very good for Tesla or terrible. It could be that they've managed to seize the interest of the Millenials where the mainstays have been sailing badly or it could be that it's just an initial wave of bearded nerdlings that will be exhausted and reveal the true underlying demand for EVs at their current higher cost than ICE?
The run to 2020 as the 3 rolls out and shows the depth of demand and as all mainstream manufacturers start to deliver pure EVs is going to be one of the most genuinely interesting and exciting times for the automotive industry in many of our living memories.
My view of the M3's pending success is simply put - it combines all the bits we'd hope for from an EV car...
It looks futuristic but not too much so - the i3 really is hideous.
It's got a reasonable price - As someone said, the i8 looks ok, but costs 100K.
The performance is pretty good - 5.6 secs is perhaps easier in the EV world, but still not to be sniffed at.
The range is pretty good - 200 miles covers most people.
If you look at the current competition, there's very little in pure EV sense that hits all 4 of those targets...
Zoe - 250 mile range and around £20K, but looks like a small car, and 0-60 in 13.5 seconds, so 2 out of 4.
i3 - 103 mile range, around £30K, but looks horrible, and 7.3 secs 0-60 - so 2.5 out of 4
eGolf - 124 mile range, around £35K, looks ok, 10 secs 0-60, so 2 out of 4.
In short, there aren't may pure EVs that cost sensbile money, that are ok to look at, perform well, and have a decent range. They all seem to be hobbled in some form or other.
The only thing stopping me putting a deposit down? I'd not be paying £35K on anything other than a PCP or Lease deal, and until I've seen what they end up at, I'll not think any more about it.
It looks futuristic but not too much so - the i3 really is hideous.
It's got a reasonable price - As someone said, the i8 looks ok, but costs 100K.
The performance is pretty good - 5.6 secs is perhaps easier in the EV world, but still not to be sniffed at.
The range is pretty good - 200 miles covers most people.
If you look at the current competition, there's very little in pure EV sense that hits all 4 of those targets...
Zoe - 250 mile range and around £20K, but looks like a small car, and 0-60 in 13.5 seconds, so 2 out of 4.
i3 - 103 mile range, around £30K, but looks horrible, and 7.3 secs 0-60 - so 2.5 out of 4
eGolf - 124 mile range, around £35K, looks ok, 10 secs 0-60, so 2 out of 4.
In short, there aren't may pure EVs that cost sensbile money, that are ok to look at, perform well, and have a decent range. They all seem to be hobbled in some form or other.
The only thing stopping me putting a deposit down? I'd not be paying £35K on anything other than a PCP or Lease deal, and until I've seen what they end up at, I'll not think any more about it.
Tuna said:
This is just a bolt with a different badge no?phil4 said:
manracer said:
This is just a bolt with a different badge no?
Or a box with a sloped front and tapering rear - probably the result of some mathematical formula that balanced interior space maximisation with frontal wind resistance reduction.Funnily isnt the Model S something like the most aerodynamicly efficient saloon available too?
As others have stated re model 3 vs i3
Its about performance, looks, size and range.
However for me, its also about supercharging. This is the difference between Tesla and every other single EV offering. To some it may not be important, but to me, the range of 200+ per charge is great for the commute and general driving BUT knowing i can (and intend to) travel down to the south coast as well as mainland europe, for no additional cost except purchase cost, with no planning (tesla sat nav builds supercharging pit stops in to your route) is just the icing on the cake.
I also live close to (8 miles away) from 2 superchargers, one is located at a health club - £40 a month gym membership = hardly any need to ever change at home.
So lets say i go twice a week to the gym/swim for an hour. I am getting fitter and saving even more money.
I think I know what will happen, BMW, Mercedes etc will install 1 or 2 charging stations at their dealerships - if this happens it truly shows the (lack of) commitment from them and then I hope Tesla the best in destroying the established order.
Its about performance, looks, size and range.
However for me, its also about supercharging. This is the difference between Tesla and every other single EV offering. To some it may not be important, but to me, the range of 200+ per charge is great for the commute and general driving BUT knowing i can (and intend to) travel down to the south coast as well as mainland europe, for no additional cost except purchase cost, with no planning (tesla sat nav builds supercharging pit stops in to your route) is just the icing on the cake.
I also live close to (8 miles away) from 2 superchargers, one is located at a health club - £40 a month gym membership = hardly any need to ever change at home.
So lets say i go twice a week to the gym/swim for an hour. I am getting fitter and saving even more money.
I think I know what will happen, BMW, Mercedes etc will install 1 or 2 charging stations at their dealerships - if this happens it truly shows the (lack of) commitment from them and then I hope Tesla the best in destroying the established order.
Edited by manracer on Thursday 13th July 14:15
manracer said:
As others have stated re model 3 vs i3
Its about performance, looks, size and range.
However for me, its also about supercharging. This is the difference between Tesla and every other single EV offering. To some it may not be important, but to me, the range of 200+ per charge is great for the commute and general driving BUT knowing i can (and intend to) travel down to the south coast as well as mainland europe, for no additional cost except purchase cost, with no planning (tesla sat nav builds supercharging pit stops in to your route) is just the icing on the cake.
I also live close to (8 miles away) from 2 superchargers, one is located at a health club - £40 a month gym membership = hardly any need to ever change at home.
So lets say i go twice a week to the gym/swim for an hour. I am getting fitter and saving even more money.
I think I know what will happen, BMW, Mercedes etc will install 1 or 2 charging stations at their dealerships - if this happens it truely shows the (lack of) commitment from them and then I hope Tesla the best in destroying the established order.
Only problem is that they soon get full and its not like each car is there for 2 minutes getting petrol.Its about performance, looks, size and range.
However for me, its also about supercharging. This is the difference between Tesla and every other single EV offering. To some it may not be important, but to me, the range of 200+ per charge is great for the commute and general driving BUT knowing i can (and intend to) travel down to the south coast as well as mainland europe, for no additional cost except purchase cost, with no planning (tesla sat nav builds supercharging pit stops in to your route) is just the icing on the cake.
I also live close to (8 miles away) from 2 superchargers, one is located at a health club - £40 a month gym membership = hardly any need to ever change at home.
So lets say i go twice a week to the gym/swim for an hour. I am getting fitter and saving even more money.
I think I know what will happen, BMW, Mercedes etc will install 1 or 2 charging stations at their dealerships - if this happens it truely shows the (lack of) commitment from them and then I hope Tesla the best in destroying the established order.
Edited by manracer on Thursday 13th July 14:14
Musk recently announced that there would be a charge for cars left charging once full to stop people being their too long. Its fair enough but confirms there is probably an issue with it getting very busy.
£0.30 per minute idle fee;
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharger-i...
It would be hugely frustrating to double the time of a supercharger stop because you have to wait for someone else to finish first to then start your hour etc.
That's why:
“Tesla will build larger sites along our busiest travel routes that will accommodate several dozen Teslas Supercharging simultaneously. In addition, many sites will be built further off the highway to allow local Tesla drivers to charge quickly when needed, with the goal of making charging ubiquitous in urban centers.”
https://electrek.co/2017/04/24/tesla-new-superchar...
“Tesla will build larger sites along our busiest travel routes that will accommodate several dozen Teslas Supercharging simultaneously. In addition, many sites will be built further off the highway to allow local Tesla drivers to charge quickly when needed, with the goal of making charging ubiquitous in urban centers.”
https://electrek.co/2017/04/24/tesla-new-superchar...
FurtiveFreddy said:
That's why:
“Tesla will build larger sites along our busiest travel routes that will accommodate several dozen Teslas Supercharging simultaneously. In addition, many sites will be built further off the highway to allow local Tesla drivers to charge quickly when needed, with the goal of making charging ubiquitous in urban centers.”
https://electrek.co/2017/04/24/tesla-new-superchar...
and its also why you will be able to see supercharger utilisation and how many are in service from the sat nav screen in the car very soon.“Tesla will build larger sites along our busiest travel routes that will accommodate several dozen Teslas Supercharging simultaneously. In addition, many sites will be built further off the highway to allow local Tesla drivers to charge quickly when needed, with the goal of making charging ubiquitous in urban centers.”
https://electrek.co/2017/04/24/tesla-new-superchar...
Edited by manracer on Thursday 13th July 14:47
p1stonhead said:
DonkeyApple said:
Is it worth asking why if Tesla received 400,000 pre-orders for the 3, BMW hasn't exactly had a comparable result with their i3?
It has to be a question to explore as the answer could be quite telling.
BMW is a big prestige brand so if there is a massive pending demand for EVs then why are we seeing good figures for Tesla's affordable car but not for an existing affordable car?
One thought is that Tesla is tapping a slightly different market that being the affluent, early adopter tech market. People who essentially are committing to the brand image rather than the product. As in the way some people emotionally attached themselves to Apple. If so then there is obviously that big commercial risk that once that demand is met there is little core demand sitting behind it.
The relatively dismal apparent demand for the i3 has genuinely surprised me. It's an aspirational badge, it's affordable and you would have expected many more to be on the roads if there was a large pent up demand for EVs waiting to be tapped.
Tesla's survival may even rest on the failure of all the mainstream products when they all hit the market over the coming years and the market for EVs reveals its true size and value. If demand is down to brand association rather than product then Tesla could still dominate this market for years.
Conversely, if new battery tech appears within the next decade that makes EVs genuinely cheaper than ICE then given what Tesla has invested in Lithium technology then they are finished overnight. Whereas the mainstream manufacturers have no significant exposure to that sudden tech redundancy, their suppliers do.
Coz the i3 is fIt has to be a question to explore as the answer could be quite telling.
BMW is a big prestige brand so if there is a massive pending demand for EVs then why are we seeing good figures for Tesla's affordable car but not for an existing affordable car?
One thought is that Tesla is tapping a slightly different market that being the affluent, early adopter tech market. People who essentially are committing to the brand image rather than the product. As in the way some people emotionally attached themselves to Apple. If so then there is obviously that big commercial risk that once that demand is met there is little core demand sitting behind it.
The relatively dismal apparent demand for the i3 has genuinely surprised me. It's an aspirational badge, it's affordable and you would have expected many more to be on the roads if there was a large pent up demand for EVs waiting to be tapped.
Tesla's survival may even rest on the failure of all the mainstream products when they all hit the market over the coming years and the market for EVs reveals its true size and value. If demand is down to brand association rather than product then Tesla could still dominate this market for years.
Conversely, if new battery tech appears within the next decade that makes EVs genuinely cheaper than ICE then given what Tesla has invested in Lithium technology then they are finished overnight. Whereas the mainstream manufacturers have no significant exposure to that sudden tech redundancy, their suppliers do.
k ugly Two wongs don't make a white.
p1stonhead said:
Only problem is that they soon get full and its not like each car is there for 2 minutes getting petrol.
Musk recently announced that there would be a charge for cars left charging once full to stop people being their too long. Its fair enough but confirms there is probably an issue with it getting very busy.
£0.30 per minute idle fee;
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharger-i...
It would be hugely frustrating to double the time of a supercharger stop because you have to wait for someone else to finish first to then start your hour etc.
People use them as free parking spaces, particularly expensive cities like London and California and charging is just a side benefit. There was a company, Tesloop, that used the Model S as Taxis that used the Superchargers as overnight parking. https://electrek.co/2016/12/11/tesla-cracking-down...Musk recently announced that there would be a charge for cars left charging once full to stop people being their too long. Its fair enough but confirms there is probably an issue with it getting very busy.
£0.30 per minute idle fee;
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharger-i...
It would be hugely frustrating to double the time of a supercharger stop because you have to wait for someone else to finish first to then start your hour etc.
I can foresee cars that did have free supercharging being kicked off the network for persistent abuse of the spaces.
tankplanker said:
p1stonhead said:
Only problem is that they soon get full and its not like each car is there for 2 minutes getting petrol.
Musk recently announced that there would be a charge for cars left charging once full to stop people being their too long. Its fair enough but confirms there is probably an issue with it getting very busy.
£0.30 per minute idle fee;
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharger-i...
It would be hugely frustrating to double the time of a supercharger stop because you have to wait for someone else to finish first to then start your hour etc.
People use them as free parking spaces, particularly expensive cities like London and California and charging is just a side benefit. There was a company, Tesloop, that used the Model S as Taxis that used the Superchargers as overnight parking. https://electrek.co/2016/12/11/tesla-cracking-down...Musk recently announced that there would be a charge for cars left charging once full to stop people being their too long. Its fair enough but confirms there is probably an issue with it getting very busy.
£0.30 per minute idle fee;
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharger-i...
It would be hugely frustrating to double the time of a supercharger stop because you have to wait for someone else to finish first to then start your hour etc.
I can foresee cars that did have free supercharging being kicked off the network for persistent abuse of the spaces.
http://jalopnik.com/tesla-will-limit-your-fast-cha...
Edited by p1stonhead on Thursday 13th July 15:37
98elise said:
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
Is it worth asking why if Tesla received 400,000 pre-orders for the 3, BMW hasn't exactly had a comparable result with their i3?
The i3 is still of that generation of electric cars which need to show how modern they are by looking wacky. The Teslas don't, to the point of looking a bit generic. I guess the i3 is also a small car, and doesn't have the performance the 3 is promising. Almost every EV looks odd or like a 60's movie prop. I want to like the i3 but it looks weird on those bike tyres.
Edited by Dazed and Confused on Thursday 13th July 15:36
phil4 said:
manracer said:
This is just a bolt with a different badge no?
Or a box with a sloped front and tapering rear - probably the result of some mathematical formula that balanced interior space maximisation with frontal wind resistance reduction.Which suggests that people aren't buying the Tesla because they've been waiting for a 'not-weird' electric car. The Bolt is exactly that and no-one cares. There's not a great queue of people who 'must have' an electric car. There *is* a great queue of people who want the latest shiny - which the Tesla certainly is.
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