Buy an EV they said...
Discussion
TheRainMaker said:
annodomini2 said:
You have to remember when the charging infrastructure started to come about.
2011-2012 was the peak of the app ideology, it was the latest fad, everything had to be an app.
Well it can stay in 2011-2012 2011-2012 was the peak of the app ideology, it was the latest fad, everything had to be an app.
It’s a bit like parking in London, fine when it works, massive pain in the arse when it doesn’t.
It either needs to be contactless or an account tied to the car and billed later (Tesla).
The commercial providers will probably need the first one as the second one can be problematic for those unable to pay.
RobbyJ said:
Or they could just make public transport not cripplingly expensive, not that I'd want to use it. Having free supercharging I can basically drive anywhere for a couple of quid and the cost of tyre wear.
Long may this current state of affairs last!
Very short journeys: walk for meLong may this current state of affairs last!
Short journeys: bus for me (free, no parking hassle, and Malcolm will drop you outside your door! that’s the joy of regular bus services.
Long journeys: car (diesel)
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
Pica-Pica said:
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
Hello diseasel "Nigel": custard timeCompare a Petrol Golf (of equivalent spec in case you claim the base 1.0 Petrol manual is the same) to an ID3
Edited by dmsims on Tuesday 3rd August 09:40
Pica-Pica said:
Very short journeys: walk for me
Short journeys: bus for me (free, no parking hassle, and Malcolm will drop you outside your door! that’s the joy of regular bus services.
Long journeys: car (diesel)
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
Look at you, saving the planet with a diesel car! You go girl! Short journeys: bus for me (free, no parking hassle, and Malcolm will drop you outside your door! that’s the joy of regular bus services.
Long journeys: car (diesel)
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
Pica-Pica said:
RobbyJ said:
Or they could just make public transport not cripplingly expensive, not that I'd want to use it. Having free supercharging I can basically drive anywhere for a couple of quid and the cost of tyre wear.
Long may this current state of affairs last!
Very short journeys: walk for meLong may this current state of affairs last!
Short journeys: bus for me (free, no parking hassle, and Malcolm will drop you outside your door! that’s the joy of regular bus services.
Long journeys: car (diesel)
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
So well under 10 years...
Pica-Pica said:
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
I saw this mentioned today, and it seemed like one of those "facts" that was at the extreme end, so as to satisfy confirmation bias.You can get an EV for around £23k (which is what I'm doing) and the PCP numbers as such that the minimum it's projected to be worth in 4 years time is around £12.5k (think it's near 13, but it's negligible).
I'll therefore be paying £10k of depreciation over those 4 years, and I may or may not end up better off if residuals are strong. The good news is, if I don't keep it, there'll be another more accessible/affordable EV on the road with 4 years of battery warranty left.
If I bought a comparable ICE car, brand new, is it really guaranteed that it will cost any less? Servicing is more expensive, VED is more expensive, and fuelling is more expensive. Even more poignant, what will it be worth in a world where ICEs are becoming obsolete? Will someone pay £12k for a 4 year old ICE when they could get an EV for the same money? That's usually the argument, "If they were the same money".
The most important factor is that at the end of a lease/PCP, an ICE will still just be another ICE on the market, and it won't help people with less money to afford one.
I've shedded for all of my driving life, and do all my spannering myself, and figured out I'd spent around £20k on snotters, parts and MOTs over around a 4 year period, so it's just abstracted affordability. I'm currently in an old XC90 which I've had nearly a year; it's lost around £700 in value, so far cost me around £500 in parts, and £28pcm or so in VED, and it's due an MOT soon enough - so it's cost around £120 per month alone just to own a car that will be banned from going into several places next year.
We've got an EV because its simply a better car (drivetrain) than ICE, nothing to do with saving the planet.
We're city based and weekend trips rarely go past 100 miles. We use the train a lot as its far more convenient when taking trips to Newcastle or York (we're in Durham). Yes, batteries only get you so far but EV's are evolving fast and surely the point is to transition from oil to electricity rather than have the best package from the off. Batteries will improve until something else comes along to replace them (ultra caps, fuel cells, etc.).
We're city based and weekend trips rarely go past 100 miles. We use the train a lot as its far more convenient when taking trips to Newcastle or York (we're in Durham). Yes, batteries only get you so far but EV's are evolving fast and surely the point is to transition from oil to electricity rather than have the best package from the off. Batteries will improve until something else comes along to replace them (ultra caps, fuel cells, etc.).
cj2013 said:
I've shedded for all of my driving life, and do all my spannering myself, and figured out I'd spent around £20k on snotters, parts and MOTs over around a 4 year period, so it's just abstracted affordability. I'm currently in an old XC90 which I've had nearly a year; it's lost around £700 in value, so far cost me around £500 in parts, and £28pcm or so in VED, and it's due an MOT soon enough - so it's cost around £120 per month alone just to own a car that will be banned from going into several places next year.
To just add balance, I've been shedding for the last 4 years in an old Astra that cost me £1000. Brilliant reliable car.I've not bothered to add up how much its costs, but we can exclude the expensive tyre costs because that is a preference and also common to an EV. I doubt very much I've spent more than £2k all in and includes insurance.
I'd wager its still worth £1000 too.
Lincsls1 said:
To just add balance, I've been shedding for the last 4 years in an old Astra that cost me £1000. Brilliant reliable car.
I've not bothered to add up how much its costs, but we can exclude the expensive tyre costs because that is a preference and also common to an EV. I doubt very much I've spent more than £2k all in and includes insurance.
I'd wager its still worth £1000 too.
It wasn't an absolute statement, as such, as it'll depend on what you're able to get away with.I've not bothered to add up how much its costs, but we can exclude the expensive tyre costs because that is a preference and also common to an EV. I doubt very much I've spent more than £2k all in and includes insurance.
I'd wager its still worth £1000 too.
In my case, it's a family car - so two kids. Not going to choose something that'll crush us all if we hit anything, and I can never understand the reckless way family cars are treated where they're borderline dangerous with no money spent on them. The equivalence to a new car, with an old one, is at least keeping it in good condition.
For some reason, family cars with a bit of luggage space, second hand or so, usually come with a pending list of problems to get through.
fatbutt said:
We've got an EV because its simply a better car (drivetrain) than ICE, nothing to do with saving the planet.
We're city based and weekend trips rarely go past 100 miles. We use the train a lot as its far more convenient when taking trips to Newcastle or York (we're in Durham). Yes, batteries only get you so far but EV's are evolving fast and surely the point is to transition from oil to electricity rather than have the best package from the off. Batteries will improve until something else comes along to replace them (ultra caps, fuel cells, etc.).
Similar. My wife had the Leaf today, and used the Maserati. Yes, the old Gransport is fun, and looks nice and pops and bangs. We're city based and weekend trips rarely go past 100 miles. We use the train a lot as its far more convenient when taking trips to Newcastle or York (we're in Durham). Yes, batteries only get you so far but EV's are evolving fast and surely the point is to transition from oil to electricity rather than have the best package from the off. Batteries will improve until something else comes along to replace them (ultra caps, fuel cells, etc.).
But in town, and indeed out of it much of the time, the little Nissan is just more pleasant to drive.
My CLS63 is way more modern than the 2006 Maser, so perhaps it is better in town than the Leaf, with its lovely, slushy transmission, over the top luxury and stop-start manners?
Nope.
As an appliance, EVs make way more sense than making your way around a city using an ICE.
Oh, and zero guilt for powerplant on and aircon running. Bonus.
rscott said:
Pica-Pica said:
RobbyJ said:
Or they could just make public transport not cripplingly expensive, not that I'd want to use it. Having free supercharging I can basically drive anywhere for a couple of quid and the cost of tyre wear.
Long may this current state of affairs last!
Very short journeys: walk for meLong may this current state of affairs last!
Short journeys: bus for me (free, no parking hassle, and Malcolm will drop you outside your door! that’s the joy of regular bus services.
Long journeys: car (diesel)
I am pleased that you think that all it costs you is charging and tyre wear, even though it takes ten years for electric cars to break even compared to petrol cars.
So well under 10 years...
At the moment thd sums don't add up for me, anyway.
It's the
Harry Flashman said:
Similar. My wife had the Leaf today, and used the Maserati. Yes, the old Gransport is fun, and looks nice and pops and bangs.
But in town, and indeed out of it much of the time, the little Nissan is just more pleasant to drive.
My CLS63 is way more modern than the 2006 Maser, so perhaps it is better in town than the Leaf, with its lovely, slushy transmission, over the top luxury and stop-start manners?
Nope.
As an appliance, EVs make way more sense than making your way around a city using an ICE.
Oh, and zero guilt for powerplant on and aircon running. Bonus.
I never feel guilty about disabling the stop/start in my daily driver in order to keep the HVAC running.But in town, and indeed out of it much of the time, the little Nissan is just more pleasant to drive.
My CLS63 is way more modern than the 2006 Maser, so perhaps it is better in town than the Leaf, with its lovely, slushy transmission, over the top luxury and stop-start manners?
Nope.
As an appliance, EVs make way more sense than making your way around a city using an ICE.
Oh, and zero guilt for powerplant on and aircon running. Bonus.
In my GT3 I don’t have to worry because it doesn’t have stop/start.
Max_Torque said:
Given that pretty much every car already has GPS / Sat Nav, and a huge number have 4g and 5g connectivity, why would you even bother trying to tax "fuel" for passenger cars.
Why would you even take it that far?£5000 for the first year for any car over 50K
£2500 for the first year for any car under 50K
Following years, £500 per year flat rate for all cars.
Some will win some will lose, but that's life.
No expensive infrastructure is needed etc etc.
TheRainMaker said:
Why would you even take it that far?
£5000 for the first year for any car over 50K
£2500 for the first year for any car under 50K
Following years, £500 per year flat rate for all cars.
Some will win some will lose, but that's life.
No expensive infrastructure is needed etc etc.
Sounds like an incredibly elitist idea that would essentially increase the amount of illegal vehicles on the road.£5000 for the first year for any car over 50K
£2500 for the first year for any car under 50K
Following years, £500 per year flat rate for all cars.
Some will win some will lose, but that's life.
No expensive infrastructure is needed etc etc.
cj2013 said:
TheRainMaker said:
Why would you even take it that far?
£5000 for the first year for any car over 50K
£2500 for the first year for any car under 50K
Following years, £500 per year flat rate for all cars.
Some will win some will lose, but that's life.
No expensive infrastructure is needed etc etc.
Sounds like an incredibly elitist idea that would essentially increase the amount of illegal vehicles on the road.£5000 for the first year for any car over 50K
£2500 for the first year for any car under 50K
Following years, £500 per year flat rate for all cars.
Some will win some will lose, but that's life.
No expensive infrastructure is needed etc etc.
TheRainMaker said:
It’s not really though is it, most people will already be paying much more on fuel duty at the moment.
The average mileage in the UK was 7,400 in 2019 and the trend will decrease further due to more flexible approaches to working from home.Fuel duty is currently 57.95ppl, which means you'd need to buy 862.81 litres of fuel, or around 190 gallons, per year to spend £500 on fuel duty. That'd work out to an average of 38.9 mpg, for the average person.
As with most things, the 'majority' is lower than the average, so the figures just don't work - not least because it does nothing to incentivise frugality.
As you can see, it's a double tax on the poor to expect them to subsidise high mileage drivers. It's like introducing a flat income tax rate - it just has no logical or moral grounding whatsoever.
As ever, the answer is and always will be that people who use it more should pay more.
Oilchange said:
People already pay per mile, the more fuel you use the more tax you pay to replace it.
Yebbut.....People are moving to EV's and therefore the tax income for fuel is going to dry up.
My EV costs £360 in volts for 12,000 miles. My V8 costs £4,200 a year for the same mileage. If I buy volts instead of petrol, I am depriving the exchequer of thousands of pounds a year. That's why road pricing is inevitable as the government needs our money for important stuff. Apparently.
With a saving of £4,000 a year on fuel, £1,000 annual service saving, £600 a year road tax annual saving - the mythical 'break even point' will come a lot sooner than 10 years. Assuming this point is the difference between the purchase price of an EV Vs an equivalent ICE engine? In fact in 10 years, the car will have paid for itself completely.
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