Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
otolith said:
This page calculates the yield of bioethanol available by growing sugarbeet and wheat in the UK on setaside.
https://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/02-0...
It comes up with 56.97 billion MJ worth of ethanol from 644,000 hectares of land.
That's 9.9 MWh of energy per acre, per year.
This solar farm produces 73,000MWh per year from 200 acres
https://www.nationalgrid.com/uks-first-transmissio...
That's 365 MWh per acre, per year.
Then consider the difference in efficiency of burning that ethanol in an engine vs charging an EV.
too may want to keep on burning fuels, no matter what information is provided, they wont give it up without a fight.... growing to keep cars on the road when people are starving through lack of food.... come on... get growing and feed those without food before trying to make a low grade inefficient fuel to replace hydrocarbons with....https://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/02-0...
It comes up with 56.97 billion MJ worth of ethanol from 644,000 hectares of land.
That's 9.9 MWh of energy per acre, per year.
This solar farm produces 73,000MWh per year from 200 acres
https://www.nationalgrid.com/uks-first-transmissio...
That's 365 MWh per acre, per year.
Then consider the difference in efficiency of burning that ethanol in an engine vs charging an EV.
ruggedscotty said:
too may want to keep on burning fuels, no matter what information is provided, they wont give it up without a fight.... growing to keep cars on the road when people are starving through lack of food.... come on... get growing and feed those without food before trying to make a low grade inefficient fuel to replace hydrocarbons with....
Which as someone campaigning to retain access to extract Welsh steam coal from the the Ffos-y-fran mine I can empathize with.However I can also see the heating houses with Hydrogen is madness in terms of system efficiently or hardware/logistics.
We live in the NW and I can confirm Cadent can't keep the gas they have the in the pipes they have, let along adding hydrogen into the blend.
ajprice said:
Rowan Atkinson ran a hydrogen powered GR Yaris at Goodwood. The car has been around for a couple of years now. It's not a fuel cell car like the Mirai, it's a GR 1.6 turbo with modified fuel and direct injection to take hydrogen. It's not zero emissions doing it this way but it's close to it.
His article in the recent tabloids makes sense now.This is from last year, but makes interesting reading - https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/fre... .
Trial of hydrogen powered buses with local green hydrogen production was stopped early because the cost was excessive. They found that switching to electric buses would be 6 times cheaper.
Trial of hydrogen powered buses with local green hydrogen production was stopped early because the cost was excessive. They found that switching to electric buses would be 6 times cheaper.
rscott said:
This is from last year, but makes interesting reading - https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/fre... .
Trial of hydrogen powered buses with local green hydrogen production was stopped early because the cost was excessive. They found that switching to electric buses would be 6 times cheaper.
There is a theme developing. Trial of hydrogen powered buses with local green hydrogen production was stopped early because the cost was excessive. They found that switching to electric buses would be 6 times cheaper.
sparkymark75 said:
His article in the recent tabloids makes sense now.
To be fair, in the video above he only refers to the role H2 can play in motorsport to keep ICE alive.Which is a good thing if judged on it merits for that alone.
I think even he may now reluctantly concede that HICE road cars are a non-starter and HFCV road cars are the worst of both worlds.
Maybe he read our recent thread.....
ruggedscotty said:
'Green hydrogen is an inherently inefficient and expensive solution for road transport as it requires renewable electricity for electrolysis to create the H2, more power to compress the gas, which needs to be stored in large tanks, an expensive filling station is required to pump the stored hydrogen into a vehicle, where a fuel cell converts the H2 back into electricity.It is much more efficient and cheaper to pump the renewable electricity directly into a vehicle battery.'
Who knew!
Each bus deal is going to be different but what they all share is the local grants that make the vehicles cheaper to purchase. Bamford's bus company is all about soaking up all these regional grants and subsidies as are the others. It's why the chap on this thread was able to find so many regional transport funding articles as it's rife across the whole of Europe as centralised entities such as VCs target all the local authorities who have the ability to sign in the dotted line to release all these funds to them.
I think the Montpellier deal has some unique features such as the buses not needing to be working as hard or for as long as other metropolitan areas so it sounds like electricity would be much more viable. And the hydrogen running costs appear to include an EDF backed hydrolysis plant which I imagine massively skews the cost of green hydrogen but good for them for not just using cheap fossil fuel hydrogen like all the other towns.
DonkeyApple said:
I think the Montpellier deal has some unique features such as the buses not needing to be working as hard or for as long as other metropolitan areas so it sounds like electricity would be much more viable.
City busses do a ridiculously low number of km/day though.Our national bus infrastructure said that over 65% of their busses do well under 300km/day.
Also, slow speed and start/stops is where ev transport shines.
It's the inter city busses that are going to be harder to replace, doing 70 or more km/h and bigger distances.
ZesPak said:
City busses do a ridiculously low number of km/day though.
Our national bus infrastructure said that over 65% of their busses do well under 300km/day.
Also, slow speed and start/stops is where ev transport shines.
It's the inter city busses that are going to be harder to replace, doing 70 or more km/h and bigger distances.
It's going to vary between operators though. Some will be sleepy, provincial routes where the bus service runs for just 12 hours a day and the stop/start moments are fewer. Conversely, other operators may be running for longer hours and have stop/start events every few hundred yards. There may be scenarios where maintaining a pure electric service has increased costs because greater levels of redundancies are needed to cover off both charging times and fleet flexibility. Our national bus infrastructure said that over 65% of their busses do well under 300km/day.
Also, slow speed and start/stops is where ev transport shines.
It's the inter city busses that are going to be harder to replace, doing 70 or more km/h and bigger distances.
That said, we can see quite clearly that battery tech is steadily improving so those issues will all be resolved meaning it's very hard to see why any kind of hydrogen fleet would persist much more than beyond this decade? Which makes them a bit of an eco waste?
DonkeyApple said:
Park and rides from locations further afield seems likely to play a role but so does green hydrogen.
Sure, you can burn a bit going round in circles making a bit of noise and attempting to make out that motorsport is 100% pollution regardless of how it is fuelled but the true value of green hydrogen, should it exist, may be as the fuel that can be shipped in to temporary car parks all day to generate electricity to top up the cars of folk willing to pay huge sums for the convenience.
The key will be to use car parking where the blast radius is far enough away from the main event.
I don't think many people are not seeing some useful niche uses for green hydrogen should it ever appear in sufficient quantities beyond what's needed to decarbonise the hydrogen industry.
I'm working on a project in the US where Green Hydrogen will be used to power EV chargers in areas 'off grid'.Sure, you can burn a bit going round in circles making a bit of noise and attempting to make out that motorsport is 100% pollution regardless of how it is fuelled but the true value of green hydrogen, should it exist, may be as the fuel that can be shipped in to temporary car parks all day to generate electricity to top up the cars of folk willing to pay huge sums for the convenience.
The key will be to use car parking where the blast radius is far enough away from the main event.
I don't think many people are not seeing some useful niche uses for green hydrogen should it ever appear in sufficient quantities beyond what's needed to decarbonise the hydrogen industry.
So effectively you will be able to drive your EV from one side of the US to another.
Green hydrogen fuel cells (in the same locations) will also be used to power hydrogen trucks enabling the country to transport whatever from coast to coast without using dinosaur power.
Yes it will cost billions but there is a lot of backing for it both financially and politically.
Geoffcapes said:
I'm working on a project in the US where Green Hydrogen will be used to power EV chargers in areas 'off grid'.
So effectively you will be able to drive your EV from one side of the US to another.
Green hydrogen fuel cells (in the same locations) will also be used to power hydrogen trucks enabling the country to transport whatever from coast to coast without using dinosaur power.
Yes it will cost billions but there is a lot of backing for it both financially and politically.
Yup. I've seen stuff for the HFC component to be transportable by road haulage so that they can be put in place for temporary EV facilities and the fuel trucked in and out as needed for the duration. So effectively you will be able to drive your EV from one side of the US to another.
Green hydrogen fuel cells (in the same locations) will also be used to power hydrogen trucks enabling the country to transport whatever from coast to coast without using dinosaur power.
Yes it will cost billions but there is a lot of backing for it both financially and politically.
Given the size and importance of the 'festival' industry out of the U.K. they do need to be considering solutions such as this for being able to recharge EVs in fields in the back and beyond.
Geoffcapes said:
I'm working on a project in the US where Green Hydrogen will be used to power EV chargers in areas 'off grid'.
So effectively you will be able to drive your EV from one side of the US to another.
Green hydrogen fuel cells (in the same locations) will also be used to power hydrogen trucks enabling the country to transport whatever from coast to coast without using dinosaur power.
Yes it will cost billions but there is a lot of backing for it both financially and politically.
Battery electric cars and fuel-cell trucks, used in combination with mains and hydrogen fuel-cell powered chargers. So effectively you will be able to drive your EV from one side of the US to another.
Green hydrogen fuel cells (in the same locations) will also be used to power hydrogen trucks enabling the country to transport whatever from coast to coast without using dinosaur power.
Yes it will cost billions but there is a lot of backing for it both financially and politically.
Avoids all of the significant engineering issues of trying to store and convert hydrogen to electricity in a small vehicle.
Is that still going to be seen as all eggs in one basket by those afraid of batteries?
https://reneweconomy.com.au/green-hydrogen-on-trac...
A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
LasseV said:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/green-hydrogen-on-trac...
A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
so the electrolyser tech might be around from 2028 onwards, i've no reason to believe it won't be as we need it and the chinese don't mess about. however, where are the concrete plans to deploy enough renewable energy in these territories to power them? absolute vapourware without the latter, and general electrification is going to soak up any renewable capacity for a good while, so you'd be left with very intermittent running of electrolysers when there's a genuine surplus of renewables. A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
by then we could well have grid scale storage, V2x rolled out, smart electric hot water tanks, and other storage mediums which can take advantage of smart tariffs/ intermittency.
LasseV said:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/green-hydrogen-on-trac...
A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
Excellent news for decarbonising existing grey hydrogen consumption.A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
Only a fool would then add more hydrogen consumption on top of that.
LasseV said:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/green-hydrogen-on-trac...
A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
That sounds great, but genuine question. I see that fuel cells have an efficiency of about 40-60%. When used in a converted engine, much less.A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
As a convenient option they sound brilliant but it seems a lot of effort (to generate hydrogen) when the possibilities with electricity seem to have so much more potential (as a motor is already 95+% efficient).
I'm not knocking hydrogen, but unless the potential is there to match fuel cell efficiency (or improve it significantly) it seems a bit of a backwards step.
Note that I'd love to carry on driving my ICE car forever but putting my engineer hat on, find it hard to justify.
Zero Fuchs said:
That sounds great, but genuine question. I see that fuel cells have an efficiency of about 40-60%. When used in a converted engine, much less.
As a convenient option they sound brilliant but it seems a lot of effort (to generate hydrogen) when the possibilities with electricity seem to have so much more potential (as a motor is already 95+% efficient).
I'm not knocking hydrogen, but unless the potential is there to match fuel cell efficiency (or improve it significantly) it seems a bit of a backwards step.
Note that I'd love to carry on driving my ICE car forever but putting my engineer hat on, find it hard to justify.
The idea of putting the fuel cell in the car is where it gets even sillier. Because that creates a major problem with safe and compact mobile storage solutions. Specifically, those that can be produced in their tens of millions. Try it with an ICE and it becomes a near impossibility.As a convenient option they sound brilliant but it seems a lot of effort (to generate hydrogen) when the possibilities with electricity seem to have so much more potential (as a motor is already 95+% efficient).
I'm not knocking hydrogen, but unless the potential is there to match fuel cell efficiency (or improve it significantly) it seems a bit of a backwards step.
Note that I'd love to carry on driving my ICE car forever but putting my engineer hat on, find it hard to justify.
At least the roadside charging idea using fuel cells avoids all that.
But more fundamentally, why would anyone think it's a good idea to significantly increase hydrogen consumption until the existing grey stuff has been decarbonised, which is going to take many decades.
GT9 said:
The idea of putting the fuel cell in the car is where it gets even sillier. Because that creates a major problem with safe and compact mobile storage solutions. Specifically, those that can be produced in their tens of millions. Try it with an ICE and it becomes a near impossibility.
At least the roadside charging idea using fuel cells avoids all that.
But more fundamentally, why would anyone think it's a good idea to significantly increase hydrogen consumption until the existing grey stuff has been decarbonised, which is going to take many decades.
Thanks.At least the roadside charging idea using fuel cells avoids all that.
But more fundamentally, why would anyone think it's a good idea to significantly increase hydrogen consumption until the existing grey stuff has been decarbonised, which is going to take many decades.
I'm just trying to play catch up as I've not looked into hydrogen that much but it does seem like tech that'll keep a section of society happy (for pure convenience) but it's a lot more difficult to scale up.
Not that batteries aren't without their own issues but from a wider perspective, provided we can produce batteries in numbers and keep developing their construction/makeup, they seem to be a bit of a no brainer.
I'm no EV fanboy BTW.
LasseV said:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/green-hydrogen-on-trac...
A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
Excellent. This looks like you are finally beginning to appreciate what the Green Hydrogen economy is about and why it is being built out. Could this also mean, given that you've read the BNEF report opposed to just the article that you now understand the timings involved even if all investments go to plan?A new report from BloombergNEF has found that green hydrogen, created using renewable energy, is on track to be cheaper than existing grey hydrogen, made using gas, in five key markets by 2030.
I have to say that this looks like a major breakthrough if true. That week or two away was just what you needed.
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