Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
Fastlane said:
TheDeuce said:
I've always said that the biggest hurdle when it comes to investing in FCEV infrastructure, even in places where BEV's currently don't make sense, is the imminent risk of all the investment proving totally pointless before it's even up and running by a leap in battery technology.
And the planet needs far better batteries for all sorts of reasons, far more than it needs a cobbled together FCEV supply and distribution network - so guess where the big money is going
Hard to put too much faith in Toyota's claim specifically, it's very bold.. But with hundreds of billions chasing solid state commercially ready cells, it's only a matter of time before it's a reality. And whoever gets the working patents in will have more money than God once they get up and running.
And LasseV will be driving a Mirai powered by fairy dust...And the planet needs far better batteries for all sorts of reasons, far more than it needs a cobbled together FCEV supply and distribution network - so guess where the big money is going
Hard to put too much faith in Toyota's claim specifically, it's very bold.. But with hundreds of billions chasing solid state commercially ready cells, it's only a matter of time before it's a reality. And whoever gets the working patents in will have more money than God once they get up and running.
"But this of course is what we actually ended up with kids" - Points at something they all recognise, a perfectly simple and obvious skateboard platform with a battery in the floor, a motor on each axle.
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
BEV efficiency varies greatly. In german winter, consumption rises approx 30%. Its quite equal to FCEV in those conditions. So there is that.
Hydrogen station is also way to store huge amount of energy. If hydrogen is made locally, it helps to balance the grid and it can distribute hydrogen without straining the grid. In EU, those station needs to be at least 1000kg station and that is a lot of energy. (Can be smaller stations too but they doesn't count as a ten-t station)
It's not black and white. Thats the reason why EU (also Japan, usa and korea) is betting so hard on hydrogen. In EU there will be both, hydrogen cars and bevs.
You're right, it does seem to have the upper hand. At the expense of a large tank but currently you need one of those Mercs to get close to 1300km.BEV efficiency varies greatly. In german winter, consumption rises approx 30%. Its quite equal to FCEV in those conditions. So there is that.
Hydrogen station is also way to store huge amount of energy. If hydrogen is made locally, it helps to balance the grid and it can distribute hydrogen without straining the grid. In EU, those station needs to be at least 1000kg station and that is a lot of energy. (Can be smaller stations too but they doesn't count as a ten-t station)
It's not black and white. Thats the reason why EU (also Japan, usa and korea) is betting so hard on hydrogen. In EU there will be both, hydrogen cars and bevs.
As I said, EVs aren't perfect and there are challenges for both. Temperature is definitely one of them. As is high speed.
My gut feeling is that the issues with EV's seem to be easier to solve but I have seen a fair few hydrogen busses. The truth is likely to be somewhere in-between but from a purely personal perspective, living with an EV has been a very straightforward transition. I'm lucky to have a drive, so am biased, but I can't see myself using anything else for my daily. Not while they keep advancing.
What The Deuces said:
Fastlane said:
And LasseV will be driving a Mirai powered by fairy dust...
To be fair to him the likes of Bosch are about to start producing SOFC in large numbers to power commercial activity and property. The infrastructure for hydrogen storage and distribution will be in place to support this and no doubt it will also support a number of commercial vehicles, the UK is predicted to have 1 million hydrogen vehicles on the road by 2035 (mainly commercial) so sharing a little of that infrastructure with a few Mirai users isn't that much of a stretch of the imagination.
tamore said:
once we're above 500Wh/kg it's all moot.
Indeed. And the only formats of road transport that require higher energy density than that are so tiny a % that there will be zero conversation of new infrastructure beyond that point. The first commercially proven solid state cells should achieve that much - very roughly 2 x the density of the best existing li-ion cells.
To put that into perspective a model 3 performance could go twice as far in range terms, or if desired, weigh about quarter of a tonne less and go the same distance as at present, but with a far higher power to weight ratio. But the really important benefits will be the potential for stupidly rapid charging, charge cycles in the thousands with no measurable deg and no chance of battery fires.
Doesn't leave much left to complain about.
otolith said:
TheDeuce said:
Doesn't leave much left to complain about.
They will be made of something, about the extraction of which people will suddenly acquire deep and sincerely held ethical concerns. But yes, people will always move the goalpost and have a fresh whinge. I suppose that's it's own sort of 'progress'
On the flip side, they won't be as upset when their smartphone suddenly develops the ability to charge in 5 minutes and last several days.
LasseV said:
Zero Fuchs said:
Thanks again. To be honest I've sat on the fence with hydrogen as I'm loathed to be a naysayer for the sake of it. My initial reservations, as a lay person, stem from just the relative efficiencies of drivetrains etc. But just looking at that tank tells me straight away that this is no straightforward undertaking.
A picture says a thousand words, as they say!
I do chuckle as an engineer sometimes, because of the things people say and it's taken only a few posts (of yours) for me to appreciate just how little lay people know (I class myself in that boat). It's easy to throw out a comment like, "hydrogen is the way forward" and slam EV but the realities of implementation are something else entirely. Naturally as engineers our job is to solve problems but not all solutions are equal and some you just want to run a mile from!
I applaud Toyota etc for trying to develop this technology as it definitely looks interesting. I'm sure these things are manageable in time but if EV could well be too advanced in another 10 years to make hydrogen a worthwhile pursuit for personal transport.
Much appreciated.
There are few posters (GT9, DA) who just sA picture says a thousand words, as they say!
I do chuckle as an engineer sometimes, because of the things people say and it's taken only a few posts (of yours) for me to appreciate just how little lay people know (I class myself in that boat). It's easy to throw out a comment like, "hydrogen is the way forward" and slam EV but the realities of implementation are something else entirely. Naturally as engineers our job is to solve problems but not all solutions are equal and some you just want to run a mile from!
I applaud Toyota etc for trying to develop this technology as it definitely looks interesting. I'm sure these things are manageable in time but if EV could well be too advanced in another 10 years to make hydrogen a worthwhile pursuit for personal transport.
Much appreciated.
tpost anything other powertrains than BEV's. Keep that in your mind.Toyota, Hyundai, BMW and Honda&GM are developing or manufaturing passenger FCEV. These are very big companies and they know what they are doing.
Energy efficiency is not only important aspect and it is not that simple matter. For example Germany aims to import 70% of all their hydrogen what they need. Then it is natural to use h2 in cars.
This picture is good to understand. This is from BMW press material.
It is same for wind, for example nordic countries does posses very high wind power potential and we are building it very rapidly.
Btw:
The European Council has today (July 25) adopted legislation that will see hundreds of hydrogen refuelling stations deployed across the continent.
https://www.h2-view.com/story/number-of-european-h...
Oh and I notice you failed to mention that the legislation also requires many more EV charging facilities to be rolled out by 2025 - 5 years before the hydrogen infrastructure is required.
"In addition to hydrogen refuelling, AFIR requires fast 150kW+ EV recharging to be installed every 60km along the TEN-T network by 2025, with charging stations for heavy-duty vehciles with 350kW+ output required every 60km along the core TEN-T and every 100km along the comprehensive TEN-T from 2025."
TheDeuce said:
Various types of fuel cell may have application in commercial settings .
Well Bosch are just about to nominate their suppliers with a target SOP of q4 2024 for large scale production of them so if you know something they don't it might help stop them making a huge mistake.Edited by What The Deuces on Friday 28th July 08:28
ruggedscotty said:
In February 2004, a study by the National Academies’ National Academy of Engineering and National Research Council concluded, “In the best-case scenario, the transition to a hydrogen economy would take many decades, and any reductions in oil imports and carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions are likely to be minor during the next 25 years.” Realistically, a major effort to introduce hydrogen cars before 2030 would actually undermine efforts to reduce emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases such as CO2.
https://issues.org/romm-hydrogen-clean-energy/
Fossil fuel companies are also using hydrogen to justify building more pipelines, claiming that this infrastructure can be used for “clean hydrogen” in the future. But hydrogen is a highly flammable and corrosive element, and it would be costly to repurpose oil and gas infrastructure to make it safe for hydrogen.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/0...
https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-comp...
What ever you may think... Hydrogen isnt anywhere near as good as its made out in certain areas.
This is the crux of it for me.https://issues.org/romm-hydrogen-clean-energy/
Fossil fuel companies are also using hydrogen to justify building more pipelines, claiming that this infrastructure can be used for “clean hydrogen” in the future. But hydrogen is a highly flammable and corrosive element, and it would be costly to repurpose oil and gas infrastructure to make it safe for hydrogen.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/0...
https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-comp...
What ever you may think... Hydrogen isnt anywhere near as good as its made out in certain areas.
All of this effort to decarbonise, yet the hydrogen pathway presents significant risk, which could potentially make the situation worse than what we currently have.
The risk of playing with a substance that is not designed to exist on its own in our atmosphere. We already have a brilliant carrier for hydrogen, in the form of carbon, that give us access to its potency without the very real downsides of using it in isolation.
The risk that the whole industry is essentially based on cynical profiteering rather than credible environmental attributes.
Both risks are by and large entirely avoidable.
Then there's the acute risk of accidents, which sadly, will catch some innocents along the way.
Germany are in a virtual state of panic over their energy situation, it is understandable why the are desperate to latch onto hydrogen as some sort of panacea, I just hope they aren't setting themselves up for a massive fall further down the track.
GT9 said:
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
Funny that you elected not to mention that Toyota recently announced a 1500 km solid-state battery with a 10 minute charging time due for production 2027....The upper hand will be lost long before anyone will be making lots of green hydrogen.
With faster charging and anything over 500 mile range hydrogen loses its only benefit for passenger cars.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 28th July 09:02
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
GT9 said:
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
Funny that you elected not to mention that Toyota recently announced a 1500 km solid-state battery with a 10 minute charging time due for production 2027....The upper hand will be lost long before anyone will be making lots of green hydrogen.
We've just done a summer holiday road trip (Leicester->Colmar->Como->Stelvio->Lucerne->Leicester). with 6 people + luggage, in a 6.5 year old EV with 68k miles on the clock with ZERO range anxiety or issues.
BEV technology has been good enough for personal transportation for coming up to a decade now, things are simply getting easier and easier with the number of DC rapid chargers now appearing everywhere in Europe.
Even James May has pretty much given up on his Mirai hasn't he?
I wonder how long it would take to do a family European road trip in a Mirai - or even if its possible?
gangzoom said:
GT9 said:
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
Funny that you elected not to mention that Toyota recently announced a 1500 km solid-state battery with a 10 minute charging time due for production 2027....The upper hand will be lost long before anyone will be making lots of green hydrogen.
We've just done a summer holiday road trip (Leicester->Colmar->Como->Stelvio->Lucerne->Leicester). with 6 people + luggage, in a 6.5 year old EV with 68k miles on the clock with ZERO range anxiety or issues.
BEV technology has been good enough for personal transportation for coming up to a decade now, things are simply getting easier and easier with the number of DC rapid chargers now appearing everywhere in Europe.
Even James May has pretty much given up on his Mirai hasn't he?
I wonder how long it would take to do a family European road trip in a Mirai - or even if its possible?
karoo around Teslas falsely claimed ranges proves that. A lot of consumers wants to have a long range. There is a real stshow coming about this matter in mainstream media.No, May just changed it to new gen Mirai and absolutely loves it. He lives in wrong country tho.
Anyway, this is a must watch video for car enthusiastics. Supercharged V8 (LS) running with hydrogen, zero emission and 500hp with manual box. EPA valitated and they are aiming to develope complete kit for commercial purpose. There are a lot of familiar names mentioned in this video, including BOSCH and GM.
Not gonna lie, this is the way in the long run for car builders, hot rodders, restomods etc. Toyota already build h2 AE86 but it is also very important that US car builders will do their magic with h2.
https://youtu.be/RAEhhYqMEBE
One very important thing about what they said, is that there is a lot of false information in youtube about hydrogen in car use. And i agree.
Edited by LasseV on Sunday 30th July 09:27
LasseV said:
gangzoom said:
GT9 said:
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
Funny that you elected not to mention that Toyota recently announced a 1500 km solid-state battery with a 10 minute charging time due for production 2027....The upper hand will be lost long before anyone will be making lots of green hydrogen.
We've just done a summer holiday road trip (Leicester->Colmar->Como->Stelvio->Lucerne->Leicester). with 6 people + luggage, in a 6.5 year old EV with 68k miles on the clock with ZERO range anxiety or issues.
BEV technology has been good enough for personal transportation for coming up to a decade now, things are simply getting easier and easier with the number of DC rapid chargers now appearing everywhere in Europe.
Even James May has pretty much given up on his Mirai hasn't he?
I wonder how long it would take to do a family European road trip in a Mirai - or even if its possible?
karoo around Teslas falsely claimed ranges proves that. A lot of consumers wants to have a long range. There is a real stshow coming about this matter in mainstream media.No, May just changed it to new gen Mirai and absolutely loves it. He lives in wrong country tho.
Anyway, this is a must watch video for car enthusiastics. Supercharged V8 (LS) running with hydrogen, zero emission and 500hp with manual box. EPA valitated and they are aiming to develope complete kit for commercial purpose. There are a lot of familiar names mentioned in this video, including BOSCH and GM.
Not gonna lie, this is the way in the long run for car builders, hot rodders, restomods etc. Toyota already build h2 AE86 but it is also very important that US car builders will do their magic with h2.
https://youtu.be/RAEhhYqMEBE
One very important thing about what they said, is that there is a lot of false information in youtube about hydrogen in car use. And i agree.
Edited by LasseV on Sunday 30th July 09:27
That's according to a company who build emissions test equipment -
https://www.horiba.com/int/automotive/applications... - not a random YouTuber.
That HICE will be maybe 20% efficient, if they're lucky, so this isn't a large scale viable solution as there's no way to produce enough green hydrogen.
rscott said:
LasseV said:
gangzoom said:
GT9 said:
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
Funny that you elected not to mention that Toyota recently announced a 1500 km solid-state battery with a 10 minute charging time due for production 2027....The upper hand will be lost long before anyone will be making lots of green hydrogen.
We've just done a summer holiday road trip (Leicester->Colmar->Como->Stelvio->Lucerne->Leicester). with 6 people + luggage, in a 6.5 year old EV with 68k miles on the clock with ZERO range anxiety or issues.
BEV technology has been good enough for personal transportation for coming up to a decade now, things are simply getting easier and easier with the number of DC rapid chargers now appearing everywhere in Europe.
Even James May has pretty much given up on his Mirai hasn't he?
I wonder how long it would take to do a family European road trip in a Mirai - or even if its possible?
karoo around Teslas falsely claimed ranges proves that. A lot of consumers wants to have a long range. There is a real stshow coming about this matter in mainstream media.No, May just changed it to new gen Mirai and absolutely loves it. He lives in wrong country tho.
Anyway, this is a must watch video for car enthusiastics. Supercharged V8 (LS) running with hydrogen, zero emission and 500hp with manual box. EPA valitated and they are aiming to develope complete kit for commercial purpose. There are a lot of familiar names mentioned in this video, including BOSCH and GM.
Not gonna lie, this is the way in the long run for car builders, hot rodders, restomods etc. Toyota already build h2 AE86 but it is also very important that US car builders will do their magic with h2.
https://youtu.be/RAEhhYqMEBE
One very important thing about what they said, is that there is a lot of false information in youtube about hydrogen in car use. And i agree.
Edited by LasseV on Sunday 30th July 09:27
That's according to a company who build emissions test equipment -
https://www.horiba.com/int/automotive/applications... - not a random YouTuber.
That HICE will be maybe 20% efficient, if they're lucky, so this isn't a large scale viable solution as there's no way to produce enough green hydrogen.
Edited by LasseV on Sunday 30th July 10:32
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
98elise said:
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
Yup.
LasseV said:
98elise said:
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
Yup.
Certainly in the UK no sane person would consider one as there is next to zero infrastructure and even in the Eu legislation has required EV infrastructure enhancement greater and more rapidly than Hydrogen.
The notion of running a hydrogen powered modified internal combustion engine car is laughably ridiculous for reasons explained numerous times.
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