8% battery degredation after 16k miles!!
Discussion
gangzoom said:
If you cannot charge your EV at home you have to rely on DC rapid charging. The more you DC rapid charger the more you suffer battery degredation, so you not only waste time, money (because DC rapid chargers are more expensive), and now you are left with a car that needs a new battery every few years.
I am not sure I agree with you on that. While I dont know anyone with an EV that doesnt have charging at home - the vast number of EV owners DO charge at home for most of what they do - you absolutely DONT need to rely on DC fast charging if you cant charge at home. So no, there are still a lot of options that might not be quite as convenient as charging at home, but saying that you have to rely on DC charging is not correct.gangzoom said:
Versus right now a £1000 combustion car will get you to work and do the school run as well any £100k car with no increase in time wasted (like finding a public DC rapid chargers).
And while I disagree on the DC fast charging point - its absolutely fine to use what fits for your life. I am absolutely NOT saying that everyone must have an EV, regardless of the situation or circumstances that a person has. I will say that anyone should get what fits for them though. If you want to use a grands worth of shed to get to and from work - go for it. Chances are there will be higher ongoing costs, but its going to take any other modern EV a long time to compete on overall costs! Things will change over the coming decades and petrol stations are likely to get bigger but fewer in number - but if it works for you, why the hell would you NOT save your cash and do something more interesting with it.Now, there will always be people who want (and can afford) the latest shiny thing. Again, thats OK. As long as you can afford it and it works for you, go ahead and drop a lot of money on that EV or massive over powered SUV. I dont care, your choice.
In reality though, I think that we must all be sensible in the long term (and I am talking 50 years from now). The idea that we can continue to put more and more cars on increasingly congested roads isnt sustainable. Are EV's the answer? Short to medium term yes, long term? Not so sure. And, call me a communist if you want, but I want to see a sustainable answer for ALL people, regardless of income. I dont want to see a world where only the wealthy can afford the latest luxury EV while the poor are forced into public transport because they have no other real choice. Of course, I am being extreme and thats not likely to happen. But the idea that you can afford a $50k to save money really doesnt make that much sense in reality - especially when its to save on tax! A great number of people cant afford $5k for a car, and dont get any of the tax benefits for going 'green'.
California recently changed its 'green car' rules for tax benefits. I am sure you can imagine the kick back that happened. Its $150k single or $300k dual filing maximum income limits, at which you dont get tax credits. People were freaking out.... And the efforts for these people to justify why they should get tax credits when they buy a $140k Model S were insane.... but you get the idea.
Heres Johnny said:
Bjorn isn't a scientist and while his tests of interesting, I can;t say I agree with his conclusions.
The example quoted - he knows that he did in terms of how much fast charging, but the challenge to his test was you need 2 identical cars and one rapid charged and one not rapid charged a lot fo compare.
Now some will race off to Teslafi and pull the stats, but Teslafi is wrong as that uses the more superficial data via the API and that is prone to BMS drift which often results in degradation seemingly appearing but a few simple steps reverses it.
Another example of Bjorn missing the point was the M3P cold weather and low state of charge performance. For those that don't know a year ago the latest M3P battery with heat pump cars when cold and at around 30% state of charge would take something daft like 8 seconds to hit 60. He repeated the test but rather than test the car when cold at 30% SoC he started full, and warm, and then kept repeating the tests as the battery cooled down. His conclusion was Tesla had fixed the issue, well it was kind of true, but it looked much more like Tesla had simply tuend off the heat pump so the battery stayed warm. From his test we have no idea what the car would do if you jumped in first thing in a morning with a 30 or 40% SoC and drove it which was what the complaint was.
All goes to show there's still lots to learn and amateur sluths using an app that shows them data but without the knowledge of what the numbers really mean, how accurate they might be, whats comparable to what, etc just add more noise rather than actually answer the questions.
Luckily though, the car industry is scrupulously honest and the EV side of it isn't plagued by devoutly religious haters and lovers with no ability to be ho eat or objective. The example quoted - he knows that he did in terms of how much fast charging, but the challenge to his test was you need 2 identical cars and one rapid charged and one not rapid charged a lot fo compare.
Now some will race off to Teslafi and pull the stats, but Teslafi is wrong as that uses the more superficial data via the API and that is prone to BMS drift which often results in degradation seemingly appearing but a few simple steps reverses it.
Another example of Bjorn missing the point was the M3P cold weather and low state of charge performance. For those that don't know a year ago the latest M3P battery with heat pump cars when cold and at around 30% state of charge would take something daft like 8 seconds to hit 60. He repeated the test but rather than test the car when cold at 30% SoC he started full, and warm, and then kept repeating the tests as the battery cooled down. His conclusion was Tesla had fixed the issue, well it was kind of true, but it looked much more like Tesla had simply tuend off the heat pump so the battery stayed warm. From his test we have no idea what the car would do if you jumped in first thing in a morning with a 30 or 40% SoC and drove it which was what the complaint was.
All goes to show there's still lots to learn and amateur sluths using an app that shows them data but without the knowledge of what the numbers really mean, how accurate they might be, whats comparable to what, etc just add more noise rather than actually answer the questions.
In reality, what we do know is that fitting a battery and electric motor will not magically transform the people who make and sell cars into honest people and somewhere along the line there will be yet another automotive scandal. Given that the batteries are one of the most 'messy' bits of an EV, it does seem most probably that it'll be these Victorian bricks that lie at the heart of it.
I have an I-Pace that reports max available battery via API or OBD and that value changes with the phase of the moon or wind direction or something. In all seriousness though, I’m sure there is a good reason for the variation like ambient temp or battery temp something. This is a common “problem” with EVs. So I just ignore it and keep on trucking. If yer man is using something like to draw conclusions, best of luck with that.
Anyhow, one thing I would be potentially concerned about is the higher charge speeds in the 200-300kW range. I appreciate that it’s mostly marketing and that they only charge at the high speeds for a limited time but I’m pretty sure battery chemistry is battery chemistry pretty much and the lithium ion limitations are what they are.
Anyhow, one thing I would be potentially concerned about is the higher charge speeds in the 200-300kW range. I appreciate that it’s mostly marketing and that they only charge at the high speeds for a limited time but I’m pretty sure battery chemistry is battery chemistry pretty much and the lithium ion limitations are what they are.
I've done some calculations on an eGolf with about 65k on the clock that has pretty much only been rapid charged...
There doesn't seem to be a way of getting battery health or degradation like there is on some cars, but doing a big charge (under 10% to full) and extrapolating energy suggested a usable capacity of 30kWh against a supposed 32kWh.
There doesn't seem to be a way of getting battery health or degradation like there is on some cars, but doing a big charge (under 10% to full) and extrapolating energy suggested a usable capacity of 30kWh against a supposed 32kWh.
blank said:
I've done some calculations on an eGolf with about 65k on the clock that has pretty much only been rapid charged...
There doesn't seem to be a way of getting battery health or degradation like there is on some cars, but doing a big charge (under 10% to full) and extrapolating energy suggested a usable capacity of 30kWh against a supposed 32kWh.
40kW max charge rate so 'rapid' might be over egging it a bit? There doesn't seem to be a way of getting battery health or degradation like there is on some cars, but doing a big charge (under 10% to full) and extrapolating energy suggested a usable capacity of 30kWh against a supposed 32kWh.
DonkeyApple said:
Heres Johnny said:
Bjorn isn't a scientist and while his tests of interesting, I can;t say I agree with his conclusions.
The example quoted - he knows that he did in terms of how much fast charging, but the challenge to his test was you need 2 identical cars and one rapid charged and one not rapid charged a lot fo compare.
Now some will race off to Teslafi and pull the stats, but Teslafi is wrong as that uses the more superficial data via the API and that is prone to BMS drift which often results in degradation seemingly appearing but a few simple steps reverses it.
Another example of Bjorn missing the point was the M3P cold weather and low state of charge performance. For those that don't know a year ago the latest M3P battery with heat pump cars when cold and at around 30% state of charge would take something daft like 8 seconds to hit 60. He repeated the test but rather than test the car when cold at 30% SoC he started full, and warm, and then kept repeating the tests as the battery cooled down. His conclusion was Tesla had fixed the issue, well it was kind of true, but it looked much more like Tesla had simply tuend off the heat pump so the battery stayed warm. From his test we have no idea what the car would do if you jumped in first thing in a morning with a 30 or 40% SoC and drove it which was what the complaint was.
All goes to show there's still lots to learn and amateur sluths using an app that shows them data but without the knowledge of what the numbers really mean, how accurate they might be, whats comparable to what, etc just add more noise rather than actually answer the questions.
Luckily though, the car industry is scrupulously honest and the EV side of it isn't plagued by devoutly religious haters and lovers with no ability to be ho eat or objective. The example quoted - he knows that he did in terms of how much fast charging, but the challenge to his test was you need 2 identical cars and one rapid charged and one not rapid charged a lot fo compare.
Now some will race off to Teslafi and pull the stats, but Teslafi is wrong as that uses the more superficial data via the API and that is prone to BMS drift which often results in degradation seemingly appearing but a few simple steps reverses it.
Another example of Bjorn missing the point was the M3P cold weather and low state of charge performance. For those that don't know a year ago the latest M3P battery with heat pump cars when cold and at around 30% state of charge would take something daft like 8 seconds to hit 60. He repeated the test but rather than test the car when cold at 30% SoC he started full, and warm, and then kept repeating the tests as the battery cooled down. His conclusion was Tesla had fixed the issue, well it was kind of true, but it looked much more like Tesla had simply tuend off the heat pump so the battery stayed warm. From his test we have no idea what the car would do if you jumped in first thing in a morning with a 30 or 40% SoC and drove it which was what the complaint was.
All goes to show there's still lots to learn and amateur sluths using an app that shows them data but without the knowledge of what the numbers really mean, how accurate they might be, whats comparable to what, etc just add more noise rather than actually answer the questions.
In reality, what we do know is that fitting a battery and electric motor will not magically transform the people who make and sell cars into honest people and somewhere along the line there will be yet another automotive scandal. Given that the batteries are one of the most 'messy' bits of an EV, it does seem most probably that it'll be these Victorian bricks that lie at the heart of it.
gangzoom said:
The ID3 doesn't even charge that aggressively versus the eTron or even Ionqi 5/EV6.
The Onto e-Trons will be an interesting study of this - I doubt they’ll ever be anything other than rapid charged in their early life, I’m not sure how long they’ll keep them on fleet for though. Toaster Pilot said:
gangzoom said:
The ID3 doesn't even charge that aggressively versus the eTron or even Ionqi 5/EV6.
The Onto e-Trons will be an interesting study of this - I doubt they’ll ever be anything other than rapid charged in their early life, I’m not sure how long they’ll keep them on fleet for though. 2 years seems to be their standard de-fleet period.
Edited by SWoll on Saturday 20th November 08:36
Heres Johnny said:
I don’t disagree, you could add the lack of proper journalists not tainted by advertising revenue or test organisations / standards bodies who have stopped seeing the wood for the trees.
The fanatical blogger is certainly omnipresent in this area with their immoral and unprofessional penmanship, brand bias, warped religious zeal and the childlike intolerance that accompanies it all. There's one chap who seems to be a gold standard preacher with many acolytes yet his writing is that of a child's mind playing at grownups while riddled with passive aggressive and very simplistic surmises. Others clearly have a diploma from the School of Goebbels.
It's obviously not just restricted to EVs but other consumer brands and lifestyles but it's a great shame as EVs are nothing other than a different means to propel a car. It has flaws like as such machines and it has benefits. They are a better means of propulsion for some while the ICE remains superior for others.
There will very obviously be frauds being committed right now along with engineering mistakes that end up harming customers. It is just a car at the end of the day and EVs aren't mystically being built by a separate species.
Li batteries are horrible things and complete rubbish at doing their job. Massive, heavy blocks of ancient chemistry that barely hold any energy, have to be lugged about while hindering the design of the end product, take ages to refill and are currrntly disposed of at end of life by burning.
Forward progress of mankind in all areas is now cripplingly retarded by our failure to solve our energy storage issue, for that to keep pace with all our other major advances. Energy storage is the single biggest issue facing all of us as it features as an issue in all steps forward for mankind in all directions.
Yet, even with current Li battery technology being so farcically and depressingly crap and despite undoing the massive gains in efficiency of the electric motor over the ICE, they are good enough to operate private vehicles. The majority of us could make an EV for our lives and as humans we can adapt almost instantly around the shortcomings and take advantage of the gains.
But finding a bent engineer, or creating one via the application of cash, is as easy as finding a bent accountant, car mechanic, broker or any kind of bloke and the more money that's on the table the more they are found and used. The car industry is as bent as banking so very clearly there are frauds, deceits and scandals being fermented right now and some of them will get uncovered. Often when the bodies start appearing in the news.
Someone will be skimping on cell grading and using the BMS to fudge data.
And while biome really cares at all about African children being exploited, they will care about all the power leakage from their battery pack while it sits outside.
People talk about a battery losing 8% of its storage capability as the weak cells in the pack get found out but consumers complain about this because they see it as them being robbed. They're paying a monthly fee for X but now it's X-Y but the rental is the same. From the macro perspective the real issue is the power leakage of EVs. It's only a percent or two a month on a average and the end customer is unlikely to ever notice because they plug in regularly etc but this fuel seepage will become quite an ethical issue once we have 20m EVs sitting around all day all leaking energy that has had an environmental cost to either produce or an environmental cost in wasting.
It is fair to point out that lower income households in 20 years time will face an issue when they finally have to switch to EV of mankind still hasn't found a competent means to store energy but given the crushing importance in our evolution to finally finding efficient energy storage and the trillions being poured in to find it, it really would be a disaster if we are still having to hobble along dragging a tonne of Victorian chemical crap everywhere we go so as to get an electric motor to work.
I think if in 2030-35 there are new PHEV's that can do say 70-100 miles and have a 1.0L ecoboost type engine (like a Volvo V60 now just with much better EV range) they would be popular and could be the 2040-50's cheap used cars of choice. I agree though that motoring is likely set to get more expensive and has potential social impacts, but it's a long way out.
Whilst the battery % lookup is a good thing for used EV buyers, what is the % based on, I mean who has a Iphone with a 50% battery health %!? It's not going to last 5 mins is it, if it's even usable at all at that level? I mean it should be logically half but it really isn't is it, it gets to useless way before say10% and it'll vary model to model, how do you even define accuracy here, it might be like the MPG figures where they are almost impossible to match.
It'll be down to the owners to discover if their model is fine at 85%, 80% etc until it's essentially dead at perhaps 60%?
Whilst the battery % lookup is a good thing for used EV buyers, what is the % based on, I mean who has a Iphone with a 50% battery health %!? It's not going to last 5 mins is it, if it's even usable at all at that level? I mean it should be logically half but it really isn't is it, it gets to useless way before say10% and it'll vary model to model, how do you even define accuracy here, it might be like the MPG figures where they are almost impossible to match.
It'll be down to the owners to discover if their model is fine at 85%, 80% etc until it's essentially dead at perhaps 60%?
SWoll said:
Simple enough to do a battery health check on most EV's. The available range shown when compared to SOC % will also be a pretty clear indicator?
Not so clear. I diligently log the SOC and range each time I plug and unplug (sad, I know). Best range (apart from a balancing charge where 100% = 262 miles) has been 32% at 80 miles (250 mile range). Worst case has been 31% at 55 miles (177 mile range). That's a huge variation.Scootersp said:
I think if in 2030-35 there are new PHEV's that can do say 70-100 miles and have a 1.0L ecoboost type engine (like a Volvo V60 now just with much better EV range) they would be popular
I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that prety much any normal car with an engine by 2030, let alone 2035 is going to be like using a Nokia 3410 in 2010 (when everyone has a smartphone)yes, some specialist cars will have hybridisation still (ultra long range cars, for towing, for off roading and the like) but for normal cars, no, i think in as little as 5 years you'l lhave to give them away.
Scootersp said:
Whilst the battery % lookup is a good thing for used EV buyers, what is the % based on, I mean who has a Iphone with a 50% battery health %!? It's not going to last 5 mins is it, if it's even usable at all at that level?
er, you look up the claimed range when new which is clearly the range at 100 SoH, then work out the claimed range with the degredation. Ie a 200 mile new range with 20% degredation (80% SoH) is clearly a range of 160 miles now.Is that enough? i suspect for a vast number of people it actually is. My first EV had a 18 kWh useable battery when new, most EVs today have around 50 kWh, so they could be at lower than 50% SoH and still work for a lot of people (esp as second cars). Heck, plenty of people i know have old Gen1 leafs as there commuter car, with probably something like a 50 mile range, but that's plenty if you just drive 5 miles to the station and back. And here's the thing, a worn battery EV is probably not going to suddenly and catastrophically let you down like a worn ICE. There is no timing chain/DMF/DPF/Turbo/HPfuelpump/Multispeedtransmission (delete as appropriate) to suddenly and terminally go "POP" just a gradual and slow reduction in the range capability. Yes as the battery wears really badly at some point you also loose max performance, but even a nissan leaf is plenty fast enough to get you 5 miles to the station every morning.
gangzoom said:
Governments made a massive bobo pushing people to diesels, if EV battery packs all turn out to become essentially perishable items after 5-6 years we are looking at another disaster in the making 
.
https://insideevs.com/news/548404/volkswagen-confi...
Home charging your TM3, you're going to do something like 4p per mile in fuel costs. A comparable BMW will cost you at least 20p per mile..https://insideevs.com/news/548404/volkswagen-confi...
Say 12k miles per year, 8 years (a lower limit on battery life), your comparative costs are about £15k apart. If the new battery is £20k in 8 years then (allowing for the time value of money) the two cars cost the same to run.
Depreciation on many EVs is low, too. If this is a real problem, it will be reflected in residuals. I'd be very surprised if the lifetime cost of ownership turns out to be terrible for the EV.
The problem is most people can't get their hear around the idea that a part of the EV's up-front cost is, in essence, capitalised fuel running costs.
Max_Torque said:
I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that prety much any normal car with an engine by 2030, let alone 2035 is going to be like using a Nokia 3410 in 2010 (when everyone has a smartphone)
It won't be that soon. Manufacturers aren't remotely gearing up for that kind of sales volume. At best you'll be over 50% in a handful of affluent cities and regions in the West. We've around 36m cars on the road in the U.K. and like in Europe we have a pretty static 5% renewal rate that really only varies with GDP. So we buy 2m new cars a year. In 2021 about 200k will be EVs, doubling the number of the previous decade. Let's be really bullish and say that by 2025 somehow half of new car purchases are EVs, that's only 1m/year making inroads into that 36m fleet.
There are 300m ice cars in the US to be replaced and a similar number in Europe. Forward EV production figures don't tie up with any kind of majority replacement of these fleets but also because of the renewal rate of new cars it's not mathematically possible anyway.
Change is happening but it's not any kind of revolution but just a steady evolution and it's going to take longer than the folks soiling themselves that it's happening tomorrow have realised.
And that's before the obvious consideration that the poorest of a Western consumer society must be kept fully mobile in order for that society to be able to function which is why 2035 has not been legally set because the transition may need to be stalled to ensure mobility is maintained.
And of course there are huge swathes of population in the West where the EV penetration rate remains at zero and hasn't shown any signs of beginning its evolution.
RobDickinson said:
DonkeyApple said:
It won't be that soon.
It wont be that slow.Already Norway is looking at ending ICE passenger vehicle sales in April ish. Europe is at about 10% BEV now.
If you are spending money on a fossil car past 2025 in Europe you will be an outlier.
You need to discount tiny pockets of extreme legislation as that and look at the wider picture such as adoption in the Southern states.
However, none of that is even relevant because the rate of change is defined by simple maths so it doesn't matter what you want to think or what religion and deceit you wish to spew forth with, basic maths shows the way.
5% is the fleet renewal rate across the West. Even you can work out the time it will take if 100% of new car sales are EV and even you can't spin that we are anywhere close to 100%.
It's an evolution of you think it's a revolution then you have a really, really boring idea of what a revolution is!! Its going to take multiple decades just for the most affluent parts of the Weat to fully switch and by then all the stuff on sale today will be long since dead and dumped in African landfill along with all our fridges, TVs, kettles and every bit of eco junk that apex consumer shopaholic can't stop filling their homes with in the name of saving the planet.
DonkeyApple said:
The fanatical blogger is certainly omnipresent in this area with their immoral and unprofessional penmanship, brand bias, warped religious zeal and the childlike intolerance that accompanies it all.
There's one chap who seems to be a gold standard preacher with many acolytes yet his writing is that of a child's mind playing at grownups while riddled with passive aggressive and very simplistic surmises. Others clearly have a diploma from the School of Goebbels.
It's obviously not just restricted to EVs but other consumer brands and lifestyles but it's a great shame as EVs are nothing other than a different means to propel a car. It has flaws like as such machines and it has benefits. They are a better means of propulsion for some while the ICE remains superior for others.
There will very obviously be frauds being committed right now along with engineering mistakes that end up harming customers. It is just a car at the end of the day and EVs aren't mystically being built by a separate species.
Li batteries are horrible things and complete rubbish at doing their job. Massive, heavy blocks of ancient chemistry that barely hold any energy, have to be lugged about while hindering the design of the end product, take ages to refill and are currrntly disposed of at end of life by burning.
Forward progress of mankind in all areas is now cripplingly retarded by our failure to solve our energy storage issue, for that to keep pace with all our other major advances. Energy storage is the single biggest issue facing all of us as it features as an issue in all steps forward for mankind in all directions.
Yet, even with current Li battery technology being so farcically and depressingly crap and despite undoing the massive gains in efficiency of the electric motor over the ICE, they are good enough to operate private vehicles. The majority of us could make an EV for our lives and as humans we can adapt almost instantly around the shortcomings and take advantage of the gains.
But finding a bent engineer, or creating one via the application of cash, is as easy as finding a bent accountant, car mechanic, broker or any kind of bloke and the more money that's on the table the more they are found and used. The car industry is as bent as banking so very clearly there are frauds, deceits and scandals being fermented right now and some of them will get uncovered. Often when the bodies start appearing in the news.
Someone will be skimping on cell grading and using the BMS to fudge data.
And while biome really cares at all about African children being exploited, they will care about all the power leakage from their battery pack while it sits outside.
People talk about a battery losing 8% of its storage capability as the weak cells in the pack get found out but consumers complain about this because they see it as them being robbed. They're paying a monthly fee for X but now it's X-Y but the rental is the same. From the macro perspective the real issue is the power leakage of EVs. It's only a percent or two a month on a average and the end customer is unlikely to ever notice because they plug in regularly etc but this fuel seepage will become quite an ethical issue once we have 20m EVs sitting around all day all leaking energy that has had an environmental cost to either produce or an environmental cost in wasting.
It is fair to point out that lower income households in 20 years time will face an issue when they finally have to switch to EV of mankind still hasn't found a competent means to store energy but given the crushing importance in our evolution to finally finding efficient energy storage and the trillions being poured in to find it, it really would be a disaster if we are still having to hobble along dragging a tonne of Victorian chemical crap everywhere we go so as to get an electric motor to work.
Talking of Victorian, and lugging crap around. Your Range Rover weighs almost exactly a tonne more than my BEV. There's one chap who seems to be a gold standard preacher with many acolytes yet his writing is that of a child's mind playing at grownups while riddled with passive aggressive and very simplistic surmises. Others clearly have a diploma from the School of Goebbels.
It's obviously not just restricted to EVs but other consumer brands and lifestyles but it's a great shame as EVs are nothing other than a different means to propel a car. It has flaws like as such machines and it has benefits. They are a better means of propulsion for some while the ICE remains superior for others.
There will very obviously be frauds being committed right now along with engineering mistakes that end up harming customers. It is just a car at the end of the day and EVs aren't mystically being built by a separate species.
Li batteries are horrible things and complete rubbish at doing their job. Massive, heavy blocks of ancient chemistry that barely hold any energy, have to be lugged about while hindering the design of the end product, take ages to refill and are currrntly disposed of at end of life by burning.
Forward progress of mankind in all areas is now cripplingly retarded by our failure to solve our energy storage issue, for that to keep pace with all our other major advances. Energy storage is the single biggest issue facing all of us as it features as an issue in all steps forward for mankind in all directions.
Yet, even with current Li battery technology being so farcically and depressingly crap and despite undoing the massive gains in efficiency of the electric motor over the ICE, they are good enough to operate private vehicles. The majority of us could make an EV for our lives and as humans we can adapt almost instantly around the shortcomings and take advantage of the gains.
But finding a bent engineer, or creating one via the application of cash, is as easy as finding a bent accountant, car mechanic, broker or any kind of bloke and the more money that's on the table the more they are found and used. The car industry is as bent as banking so very clearly there are frauds, deceits and scandals being fermented right now and some of them will get uncovered. Often when the bodies start appearing in the news.
Someone will be skimping on cell grading and using the BMS to fudge data.
And while biome really cares at all about African children being exploited, they will care about all the power leakage from their battery pack while it sits outside.
People talk about a battery losing 8% of its storage capability as the weak cells in the pack get found out but consumers complain about this because they see it as them being robbed. They're paying a monthly fee for X but now it's X-Y but the rental is the same. From the macro perspective the real issue is the power leakage of EVs. It's only a percent or two a month on a average and the end customer is unlikely to ever notice because they plug in regularly etc but this fuel seepage will become quite an ethical issue once we have 20m EVs sitting around all day all leaking energy that has had an environmental cost to either produce or an environmental cost in wasting.
It is fair to point out that lower income households in 20 years time will face an issue when they finally have to switch to EV of mankind still hasn't found a competent means to store energy but given the crushing importance in our evolution to finally finding efficient energy storage and the trillions being poured in to find it, it really would be a disaster if we are still having to hobble along dragging a tonne of Victorian chemical crap everywhere we go so as to get an electric motor to work.
[i]
It's going to take multiple decades just for the most affluent parts of the West to fully switch, and by then, all the stuff on sale today will be long since dead and dumped in African landfill - along with all our fridges, TVs, kettles and every bit of eco-junk that apex consumer shopaholics can't stop filling their homes with - in the name of saving the planet. [/i]
Sugar-coat it, why don't you?
It's going to take multiple decades just for the most affluent parts of the West to fully switch, and by then, all the stuff on sale today will be long since dead and dumped in African landfill - along with all our fridges, TVs, kettles and every bit of eco-junk that apex consumer shopaholics can't stop filling their homes with - in the name of saving the planet. [/i]
Sugar-coat it, why don't you?
OldDuffer][i said:
It's going to take multiple decades just for the most affluent parts of the West to fully switch, and by then, all the stuff on sale today will be long since dead and dumped in African landfill - along with all our fridges, TVs, kettles and every bit of eco-junk that apex consumer shopaholics can't stop filling their homes with - in the name of saving the planet. [/i]
Sugar-coat it, why don't you?
Why would you dump raw materials that are almost entirely recyclable and therefore continue to have value forever? I would expect it to become illegal to do so anyway.Sugar-coat it, why don't you?
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