Batteries are not the Solution, Synthetic Fuels maybe

[anonymous-user]

Gary C said:

dvs_dave said:

Most cars are better as EV’s. Particularly cooking versions. Our lowly eGolf is a far superior driving experience than any of its equivalent petrol or diesel versions. It’s weird how most EV naysayers always seem to be the sort who drive crummy cars that would actually be much better if they were EV’s. Almost as though they prefer to suffer the rubbishness. It’s a weird one.

Define 'better'

Smoother
Quieter
Completely linear 'throttle' response
Faster in many cases
Far better modulation of power delivery than ICE so much more advanced traction control etc possible
1 pedal driving is amazing in town
Very low CoG so despite being heavy can handle well
Don't smell of oil/ petrol
Cheaper to run (servicing)
Cheaper to run (fuel, tax, congestion charge till 2025)
Start the day fully charged, never need to visit a petrol station in most commuting use
Pre-heat in the winter
More environmentally friendly

Downsides:
cost
range if you regularly do long distances
difficulty charging if you cannot charge at home
lack of engine noise (although many see that as an advantage)
weight (although ICE cars are not exactly light these days)


They're not the best for everyone, but if they fit and you can afford the price they are really very good.

[Gary C]

Archie2050 said:

Gary C said:

dvs_dave said:

Most cars are better as EV’s. Particularly cooking versions. Our lowly eGolf is a far superior driving experience than any of its equivalent petrol or diesel versions. It’s weird how most EV naysayers always seem to be the sort who drive crummy cars that would actually be much better if they were EV’s. Almost as though they prefer to suffer the rubbishness. It’s a weird one.

Define 'better'

Smoother
Quieter
Completely linear 'throttle' response
Faster in many cases
Far better modulation of power delivery than ICE so much more advanced traction control etc possible
1 pedal driving is amazing in town
Very low CoG so despite being heavy can handle well
Don't smell of oil/ petrol
Cheaper to run (servicing)
Cheaper to run (fuel, tax, congestion charge till 2025)
Start the day fully charged, never need to visit a petrol station in most commuting use
Pre-heat in the winter
More environmentally friendly

Downsides:
cost
range if you regularly do long distances
difficulty charging if you cannot charge at home
lack of engine noise (although many see that as an advantage)
weight (although ICE cars are not exactly light these days)


They're not the best for everyone, but if they fit and you can afford the price they are really very good.

And thats the point

'better' is so subjective as to be pointless.

For me most of your 'better' points (except cheaper) reduce the enjoyment of a car for me so are 'worse'

[Pixelpeep Electric]

these discussions keep missing a crucial point and it's meaning that there will never be any agreement because we are talking about different things.


For a work horse/daily commute car an ev trumps it in about every metric.

For a pure pleasure garage weekend toy - you won't find an EV that will compete with the experience.

Can we all agree on that?

[anonymous-user]

Pixelpeep Electric said:

these discussions keep missing a crucial point and it's meaning that there will never be any agreement because we are talking about different things.


For a work horse/daily commute car an ev trumps it in about every metric.

For a pure pleasure garage weekend toy - you won't find an EV that will compete with the experience.

Can we all agree on that?

Topic closed?

[Gary C]

Pixelpeep Electric said:

these discussions keep missing a crucial point and it's meaning that there will never be any agreement because we are talking about different things.


For a work horse/daily commute car an ev trumps it in about every metric.

For a pure pleasure garage weekend toy - you won't find an EV that will compete with the experience.

Can we all agree on that?

Difficult

Would I enjoy my commute more/less/same in an EV ?

I enjoy driving an ICE car and I don't have to deal with any queuing so the commute is a fun drive as much as a weekend drive. I even use my weekend toy sometimes.

If I did a London bumper to bumper, then I would certainly agree.

[GT9]

Gary C said:

Difficult

Would I enjoy my commute more/less/same in an EV ?

I enjoy driving an ICE car and I don't have to deal with any queuing so the commute is a fun drive as much as a weekend drive. I even use my weekend toy sometimes.

If I did a London bumper to bumper, then I would certainly agree.

The question really, in the context of the thread title, is for what proportion of the quarter of a trillion miles covered each year by all the cars in the UK, are 'batteries not the solution'.

[dvs_dave]

Archie2050 said:

Gary C said:

dvs_dave said:

Most cars are better as EV’s. Particularly cooking versions. Our lowly eGolf is a far superior driving experience than any of its equivalent petrol or diesel versions. It’s weird how most EV naysayers always seem to be the sort who drive crummy cars that would actually be much better if they were EV’s. Almost as though they prefer to suffer the rubbishness. It’s a weird one.

Define 'better'

Smoother
Quieter
Completely linear 'throttle' response
Faster in many cases
Far better modulation of power delivery than ICE so much more advanced traction control etc possible
1 pedal driving is amazing in town
Very low CoG so despite being heavy can handle well
Don't smell of oil/ petrol
Cheaper to run (servicing)
Cheaper to run (fuel, tax, congestion charge till 2025)
Start the day fully charged, never need to visit a petrol station in most commuting use
Pre-heat in the winter
More environmentally friendly

Downsides:
cost
range if you regularly do long distances
difficulty charging if you cannot charge at home
lack of engine noise (although many see that as an advantage)
weight (although ICE cars are not exactly light these days)


They're not the best for everyone, but if they fit and you can afford the price they are really very good.

Yes, all that, plus pre-cooling in the summer.

The smell is a surprising one too. Our eGolf lives in a garage alongside a daily used petrol car, which went on an extended break to the dealer some months back due to a parts supply chain issue. So the eGolf was alone in that garage for a couple of weeks. Anyway, when it was back, it really was a surprise just how much of a smell it adds to the garage. A clear, albeit normal petrol/oil/exhaust mix that I had become nose blind to.

The charging at home is a big upside too. Especially if the BEV is primarily driven by the mrs with a penchant for running her previous ICE tank down to fumes because she’s “so exhausted and just too busy with everything” to stop at a petrol station on the way. Yes, that’s a massive upside for me and how much of my time I have to waste on essential tasks that she’s decided she can’t be arsed with.

So with that said, maybe I should get an eFuel petrol pump installed at home for my ICE vehicles? Best of both worlds

Edited by dvs_dave on Wednesday 15th February 15:24

[NMNeil]

Looks like Ford are joining the 'clutching at straws club'
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/ford-save-v8-mustang-...

[DonkeyApple]

NMNeil said:

Looks like Ford are joining the 'clutching at straws club'
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/ford-save-v8-mustang-...

It's interesting that they put an exact date on when they'll be selling synthetic fuel to customers in the US and even the pricing. If they had given that information I would have just assumed it was an article about some motorsport thing and here, buy a car?

[Mikehig]

Gary C said:

Define 'better'

Completely OT but I've seen your posts on the Power Generation thread in NP&E where I cannot comment. If you have a moment please could you comment there on why 4 out of 9 nukes are down for planned outages at a time of year when demand hits peak levels?
Apologies to all for the interuption.

[NMNeil]

DonkeyApple said:

NMNeil said:

Looks like Ford are joining the 'clutching at straws club'
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/ford-save-v8-mustang-...

It's interesting that they put an exact date on when they'll be selling synthetic fuel to customers in the US and even the pricing. If they had given that information I would have just assumed it was an article about some motorsport thing and here, buy a car?

It is odd when just a few days ago Ford announced that it will be cutting jobs in the EU because EV's are easier to build than ICE.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-14...
But the worrying statement from the article is;

"Ford is likely to cut even further in the coming years, with its plant in Saarlouis, Germany, that employs 4,600 workers slated to cease making Focus compact cars by 2025. The company has no plans to produce other vehicles there after that and is in talks with potential buyers of the plant, including China’s BYD Co., according to people familiar with the matter."

[Gary C]

Mikehig said:

Gary C said:

Define 'better'

Completely OT but I've seen your posts on the Power Generation thread in NP&E where I cannot comment. If you have a moment please could you comment there on why 4 out of 9 nukes are down for planned outages at a time of year when demand hits peak levels?
Apologies to all for the interuption.

A mix of some unexpected issues requiring maintenance and planned refuelling.

The 'planned' thing though can be a misnomer. If we know we have to do some maintenance to avoid a bigger problem, its called 'planned' even if that plan can be at bit short notice.

[sparta6]

DonkeyApple said:

NMNeil said:

Looks like Ford are joining the 'clutching at straws club'
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/ford-save-v8-mustang-...

It's interesting that they put an exact date on when they'll be selling synthetic fuel to customers in the US and even the pricing. If they had given that information I would have just assumed it was an article about some motorsport thing and here, buy a car?

Unless they get it to under 5 dollars per gallon eFuel is for the affluent.

"Porsche will be using it for its Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup racing series this year at the price of $45 per gallon, but expects to get that down to $8 by 2026 as it scales up the output and continue to reduce the price from there."

[DMZ]

EVs are for the affluent and eFuel is for the affluent. If you want to be clean you need to pay. Nothing new here. I'm sure much like EVs, eFuel will be sold as a performance product and whoever markets it will ask for tax benefits. Hence the F1 angle etc. They say it's as easy/hard to create a high quality eFuel as it is to create a low quality one so I would expect high octane fuels.

eFuel folks claim that the price will come down a lot with scale. Whether true, who knows. It's a bit like promises of batteries getting cheaper when they are in fact getting more expensive. Nobody ever said change is easy, lol.

[DonkeyApple]

DMZ said:

EVs are for the affluent and eFuel is for the affluent. If you want to be clean you need to pay. Nothing new here. I'm sure much like EVs, eFuel will be sold as a performance product and whoever markets it will ask for tax benefits. Hence the F1 angle etc. They say it's as easy/hard to create a high quality eFuel as it is to create a low quality one so I would expect high octane fuels.

eFuel folks claim that the price will come down a lot with scale. Whether true, who knows. It's a bit like promises of batteries getting cheaper when they are in fact getting more expensive. Nobody ever said change is easy, lol.

That's the aspect that many Simple chose to forget. Synthetic and eFuels aren't for them and they would never be able to afford them directly.

At least with EVs the prices will come down as much of their issue is economies of scale. You can see very clearly in China how prices have fallen to being totally affordable because the production lines are churning enough out. With non fossil fuel energy it will always be expensive and always be in very limited volume and there will always be key industries that will always outbid Jeff from Basingstoke for the stuff.

Growing a crop, processing it to produce a simple alcohol, then massive further chemical processing to create longer chain hydrocarbons is not only going to be vastly more expensive than petrol but hugely supply limited while also consuming more electricity than EVs would need to travel the same distance.

Same with efuel. It requires multiples more electricity than just using that electricity directly in cars. Ergo it will always be more expensive and again, very limited in supply.

Besides which, we are talking decades to get these processes up to volume by which time most people in the U.K. will have switched to EVs and most towns in the U.K. will have banned ICE and be focussed on removing peoples gas boilers.

[bigothunter]

DMZ said:

EVs are for the affluent and eFuel is for the affluent. If you want to be clean you need to pay. Nothing new here.

I suspect we are regressing towards a divided society.

Today's motoring accessibility will be available to the affluent only. They will be able to afford the product and operating costs of 'regular' cars capable of long distance travel. A return to the Grand Touring class.

Meanwhile affordability will restrict plebs to cheap short-range EVs imported from the Orient. Fine for popping to the shops and local trips, bugger all use for anything else. If plebs want to go further, they can use public transport. Otherwise they just stay at home.

Just a vision and a fairly unpleasant one. We shall see...

[SpeckledJim]

DMZ said:

EVs are for the affluent and eFuel is for the affluent. If you want to be clean you need to pay. Nothing new here. I'm sure much like EVs, eFuel will be sold as a performance product and whoever markets it will ask for tax benefits. Hence the F1 angle etc. They say it's as easy/hard to create a high quality eFuel as it is to create a low quality one so I would expect high octane fuels.

eFuel folks claim that the price will come down a lot with scale. Whether true, who knows. It's a bit like promises of batteries getting cheaper when they are in fact getting more expensive. Nobody ever said change is easy, lol.

NEW EVs are indeed for the afflent. But then, so are new ICE. When we're awash with used EVs then they'll no longer be for the affluent.

eFuel is a total red herring, IMO. Possibly extremely handy for running your 1960s Ferrari for 500 miles a year. Not much use for anything else.

[Mikehig]

Gary C said:

Mikehig said:

Gary C said:

Define 'better'

Completely OT but I've seen your posts on the Power Generation thread in NP&E where I cannot comment. If you have a moment please could you comment there on why 4 out of 9 nukes are down for planned outages at a time of year when demand hits peak levels?
Apologies to all for the interuption.

A mix of some unexpected issues requiring maintenance and planned refuelling.

The 'planned' thing though can be a misnomer. If we know we have to do some maintenance to avoid a bigger problem, its called 'planned' even if that plan can be at bit short notice.

Thanks.

[DonkeyApple]

bigothunter said:

I suspect we are regressing towards a divided society.

Today's motoring accessibility will be available to the affluent only. They will be able to afford the product and operating costs of 'regular' cars capable of long distance travel. A return to the Grand Touring class.

Meanwhile affordability will restrict plebs to cheap short-range EVs imported from the Orient. Fine for popping to the shops and local trips, bugger all use for anything else. If plebs want to go further, they can use public transport. Otherwise they just stay at home.

Just a vision and a fairly unpleasant one. We shall see...

But everyone loves the 70s!

[bigothunter]

SpeckledJim said:

DMZ said:

EVs are for the affluent and eFuel is for the affluent. If you want to be clean you need to pay. Nothing new here. I'm sure much like EVs, eFuel will be sold as a performance product and whoever markets it will ask for tax benefits. Hence the F1 angle etc. They say it's as easy/hard to create a high quality eFuel as it is to create a low quality one so I would expect high octane fuels.

eFuel folks claim that the price will come down a lot with scale. Whether true, who knows. It's a bit like promises of batteries getting cheaper when they are in fact getting more expensive. Nobody ever said change is easy, lol.

NEW EVs are indeed for the afflent. But then, so are new ICE. When we're awash with used EVs then they'll no longer be for the affluent.

High battery cost is the dominant factor. As global demand increases, they are likely to get even more expensive. Hence the need for cheap, low battery capacity, short range EVs...