Hydrogen availability
Discussion
Landcrab_Six said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's all because it's cheap. Favourable taxation is driving behaviour - most people evangelising BEV do it because it costs tuppence h'penny to charge on Economy 7.You should see the twitter s
t-storm if a rapid charger is roughly equivalent in cost to ICE.Unleaded was driven by the government, diesel was driven by taxation and the government, the move back to petrol is driven by the government - and at the moment, BEV is driven by the government.
When will policy switch to taxing the hell out of a BEV? With the debts we've run up this year, it may be sooner than we think.
How many would accept the BEV compromise if they were cost equivalent to ICE?
ICE, BEV and H2 all pay the mortgage for me, so I don't really care where we go - but I am puzzled by the number of people who can't see beyond BEV.
https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/news/why-uk-h...
SWoll said:
won't have to hand over £40 for the privilege.
Would it be so attractive if you got a bill for £40 every time you charged at home?We are going to need to 'level up' at some point. Virtue signalling about the environment is all well and good until the budget is running a massive deficit - personal transportation will always be a target and there will be some reason given to us as to why we should tax BEV. H2 will be hit at some point, too.
Take away the subsidies and 'level up' purchase cost and recharging costs and the equation to change shifts balance significantly.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, we produce and shift hydrogen around in huge amounts using established infrastructure - reformers, compressors, pipelines, tube trailers, cylinder packs - so the cost is spread over a large sales volume. I think annual worldwide production is about 80 millions tons. So those assets are heavily utilised and many of them will be amortised."Green" hydrogen will be starting from scratch, needing hefty investments and handling very small volumes so the costs will be heavy.
I have seen enough of you thrashing a dead horse around the ring on the number of chargers so I am not going to get drawn in save to make one observation. If 8000 petrol stations can fuel all of the 30+ million cars on the road - and the majority of the vans and trucks - then a similar number of charging stations seems reasonable for the much lower public fuelling requirements of BEVs.
Kubas binding: I read about this a while back. It's one of a number of storage technologies which promises much greater fuel density. There are others using different processes. Iirc this one has yet to get a prototype running; next year is their target. Imho improved battery tech will be commercially available well before enhanced H2 storage. It's one more thing to watch.
Landcrab_Six said:
SWoll said:
won't have to hand over £40 for the privilege.
Would it be so attractive if you got a bill for £40 every time you charged at home?I'd pay the same happily as BEV is a far better method of powering a daily vehicle in my experience than ICE and offers less compromises 99.9% of the time for the huge number of people that can charge at home and don't do > 200 miles per day every day. The fact that it's so much cheaper to run one at the minute is just the cherry on the cake for me so why not 'make hay while the sun shines' as they say.
Have you ever driven a decent BEV out of interest?
SWoll said:
Yes, it would.
I'd pay the same happily as BEV is a far better method of powering a daily vehicle in my experience than ICE and offers less compromises 99.9% of the time for the huge number of people that can charge at home and don't do > 200 miles per day every day. The fact that it's so much cheaper to run one at the minute is just the cherry on the cake for me so why not 'make hay while the sun shines' as they say.
Have you ever driven a decent BEV out of interest?
BEV, FCEV, PHEV, ICE... and any combination you can think of.I'd pay the same happily as BEV is a far better method of powering a daily vehicle in my experience than ICE and offers less compromises 99.9% of the time for the huge number of people that can charge at home and don't do > 200 miles per day every day. The fact that it's so much cheaper to run one at the minute is just the cherry on the cake for me so why not 'make hay while the sun shines' as they say.
Have you ever driven a decent BEV out of interest?
Have to admit, I really don't like BEV or FCEV at all. No feel, no soul and lots of anxiety about range. I quite like PHEV and wish I could justify a BMW i8.
Mikehig said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, we produce and shift hydrogen around in huge amounts using established infrastructure - reformers, compressors, pipelines, tube trailers, cylinder packs - so the cost is spread over a large sales volume. I think annual worldwide production is about 80 millions tons. So those assets are heavily utilised and many of them will be amortised."Green" hydrogen will be starting from scratch, needing hefty investments and handling very small volumes so the costs will be heavy.
I have seen enough of you thrashing a dead horse around the ring on the number of chargers so I am not going to get drawn in save to make one observation. If 8000 petrol stations can fuel all of the 30+ million cars on the road - and the majority of the vans and trucks - then a similar number of charging stations seems reasonable for the much lower public fuelling requirements of BEVs.
Kubas binding: I read about this a while back. It's one of a number of storage technologies which promises much greater fuel density. There are others using different processes. Iirc this one has yet to get a prototype running; next year is their target. Imho improved battery tech will be commercially available well before enhanced H2 storage. It's one more thing to watch.
Hydrogen is spread across so many industries and I've seen examples of many of them making the switch, for example steel production. It's going to be big!
Thrashing a dead horse about charging point numbers? It certainly felt like that at the time, yes.
But now, you see, it appears anyone with any sense now agrees that what I've said about us needing milllions of BEV chargers if we went total BEV is correct and is backed up by the EU, for one.
And that shows there's going to be some massive cost implications with BEV too, which others have mentioned on here.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 30th October 23:39
The one thing about the 'new normal' is that is has driven me ever further away from swapping to a BEV. I'm entrenched in PHEV now.
I find myself doing fewer meetings per day and more miles per day as the hotel experience is so bloody awful I'd prefer an extra few hours on the road rather than book a hotel.
Which means BEV has moved further into the distance for me. 2-300 mile days are becoming 600 mile days, the very last thing I want is a couple of extended charging stops en route. The only good thing about the current pandemic is that motorway rapid chargers are more likely to be available without waiting.
Of course, I rarely plug in the PHEV, unless the hotel has charging spaces when I do stay away, mostly it's Friday afternoon to run around at the weekend on electric when I can't charge mileage back to the clients.
I find myself doing fewer meetings per day and more miles per day as the hotel experience is so bloody awful I'd prefer an extra few hours on the road rather than book a hotel.
Which means BEV has moved further into the distance for me. 2-300 mile days are becoming 600 mile days, the very last thing I want is a couple of extended charging stops en route. The only good thing about the current pandemic is that motorway rapid chargers are more likely to be available without waiting.
Of course, I rarely plug in the PHEV, unless the hotel has charging spaces when I do stay away, mostly it's Friday afternoon to run around at the weekend on electric when I can't charge mileage back to the clients.
Landcrab_Six said:
SWoll said:
Yes, it would.
I'd pay the same happily as BEV is a far better method of powering a daily vehicle in my experience than ICE and offers less compromises 99.9% of the time for the huge number of people that can charge at home and don't do > 200 miles per day every day. The fact that it's so much cheaper to run one at the minute is just the cherry on the cake for me so why not 'make hay while the sun shines' as they say.
Have you ever driven a decent BEV out of interest?
BEV, FCEV, PHEV, ICE... and any combination you can think of.I'd pay the same happily as BEV is a far better method of powering a daily vehicle in my experience than ICE and offers less compromises 99.9% of the time for the huge number of people that can charge at home and don't do > 200 miles per day every day. The fact that it's so much cheaper to run one at the minute is just the cherry on the cake for me so why not 'make hay while the sun shines' as they say.
Have you ever driven a decent BEV out of interest?
Have to admit, I really don't like BEV or FCEV at all. No feel, no soul and lots of anxiety about range. I quite like PHEV and wish I could justify a BMW i8.
Smoother, quieter, faster, more responsive and more practical than an equivalent ICE car. most people get over the range anxiety thing very quickly when they realise how few miles they actually do on a regular basis and just how long 200+ miles of range actually lasts.
Landcrab_Six said:
The one thing about the 'new normal' is that is has driven me ever further away from swapping to a BEV. I'm entrenched in PHEV now.
I find myself doing fewer meetings per day and more miles per day as the hotel experience is so bloody awful I'd prefer an extra few hours on the road rather than book a hotel.
Which means BEV has moved further into the distance for me. 2-300 mile days are becoming 600 mile days, the very last thing I want is a couple of extended charging stops en route. The only good thing about the current pandemic is that motorway rapid chargers are more likely to be available without waiting.
Of course, I rarely plug in the PHEV, unless the hotel has charging spaces when I do stay away, mostly it's Friday afternoon to run around at the weekend on electric when I can't charge mileage back to the clients.
I feel for you and totally understand why you wouldn't consider going BEV in your circumstances, but you do appreciate that those circumstances are highly unusual?I find myself doing fewer meetings per day and more miles per day as the hotel experience is so bloody awful I'd prefer an extra few hours on the road rather than book a hotel.
Which means BEV has moved further into the distance for me. 2-300 mile days are becoming 600 mile days, the very last thing I want is a couple of extended charging stops en route. The only good thing about the current pandemic is that motorway rapid chargers are more likely to be available without waiting.
Of course, I rarely plug in the PHEV, unless the hotel has charging spaces when I do stay away, mostly it's Friday afternoon to run around at the weekend on electric when I can't charge mileage back to the clients.
SWoll said:
I feel for you and totally understand why you wouldn't consider going BEV in your circumstances, but you do appreciate that those circumstances are highly unusual?
Not highly, I know lots of people in roles which mean lots of miles on the road - for which BEV doesn't work. There are several 'road warriors' on my road alone.I speak to people across Europe - France, Germany and Spain are vast and not very densely populated, France and Spain have poorly developed National Grids, so they're finding BEV even more of a challenge. Whereas the Netherlands and Belgium are closer to UK patterns of use and infrastructure.
It'll be an interesting decade - we will be driven by both taxation and what the majority go with. I'm really looking forward to catching up with the Euro market once the shows resume again next year to get a real feel for what is happening in the wider market. If you live in a village up in the hills above the Algarve, the electricity draw from the grid for a single rapid charger is what they specify to power a whole village.
JonnyVTEC said:
Highly unusual. It’s not surprise that if you do that it’s likely you speak to people in similar roles to think it’s ‘normal’.
Only people I know do that sort of mileage are Lorry drivers.
You think it's unusual as it's outside of your experience.Only people I know do that sort of mileage are Lorry drivers.
Look at the number of TDIs on car sales site coming out of fleet use at 3 years and 100k miles or more. I've been on the road since 2008 and see peaks and troughs - a bad year was 60k miles, a good year was 25k miles.
The Linton Travel Tavern is full of people like me outside a pandemic - mid-week in some parts of the country it's hard to find a hotel room.
If all those people switched to BEV, you'd have a problem - 200 people all wanting to charge overnight is a big drain on the local grid capacity and a lot of expense for the hotel.
FCEV for me and BEV for my wife would work, though.
if you genuinely regularily drive 600 miles a day in a passenger car for work (ie you are not a lorry or train driver!) then the car is the least of your problems. Your life must be st. I simply can't immagine the stress and strain of spending 10 hours a day driving. Seriously, forget getting and EV and get another job man!!
t. I simply can't immagine the stress and strain of spending 10 hours a day driving. Seriously, forget getting and EV and get another job man!!Shush with the highly unusual rubbish!
I know loads of people who work for companies with one HQ but national reach. For example the surveyor, based out of Bradford, who visits homes across the whole UK. Then there's the technical guy who lives near Carlisle but works for a London based company and travels to visit clients across the whole UK.
I've suppliers and projects across the UK and abroad that I need to see.
It's more unusual that you don't know anyone who works in that way, other than lorry drivers!
LOL!
I know loads of people who work for companies with one HQ but national reach. For example the surveyor, based out of Bradford, who visits homes across the whole UK. Then there's the technical guy who lives near Carlisle but works for a London based company and travels to visit clients across the whole UK.
I've suppliers and projects across the UK and abroad that I need to see.
It's more unusual that you don't know anyone who works in that way, other than lorry drivers!
LOL!
Max_Torque said:
if you genuinely regularily drive 600 miles a day in a passenger car for work (ie you are not a lorry or train driver!) then the car is the least of your problems. Your life must be st. I simply can't immagine the stress and strain of spending 10 hours a day driving. Seriously, forget getting and EV and get another job man!!
As I said - the pandemic has driven it, as hotels are awful at the moment. Wear a mask, book a time for this, book a time for that, don't stand at the bar, we don't serve pints, we have no swimming slots or gym slots for you. Dreadful. I'd prefer to drive home, have a long day, and work from home the next day, rather than book a hotel.t. I simply can't immagine the stress and strain of spending 10 hours a day driving. Seriously, forget getting and EV and get another job man!!Landcrab_Six said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That sounds like a normal week for me and many others.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff