Debunking some expected 'smart' comments
Discussion
Hackney said:
JonnyVTEC said:
Hackney said:
Brilliant. I don't have my own personal petrol station in my 3rd floor flat.
Handily some companies have built ones I can drive to when I need some petrol and be ready to drive off again in 10 minutes.
The question remains, how do I "fill up" my newly purchased EV? What if I need to use the car tomorrow.
My EV has 20% charge; if it was a 20% full petrol tank well I just set off 10-15 minutes early tomorrow and fill up at the local Shell.
Do I set off 8 hours early and plug in at a local EDF station?
More the question, why did you buy one?Handily some companies have built ones I can drive to when I need some petrol and be ready to drive off again in 10 minutes.
The question remains, how do I "fill up" my newly purchased EV? What if I need to use the car tomorrow.
My EV has 20% charge; if it was a 20% full petrol tank well I just set off 10-15 minutes early tomorrow and fill up at the local Shell.
Do I set off 8 hours early and plug in at a local EDF station?
So, I'll ask again, how is the typical London dweller supposed to recharge their EV.
And please, no smart arse answers about us all having personal petrol stations. It's getting a bit tired now.
It's a fair point, how do people in flats or with no private parking charge their cars without going to a public charging station and hanging around for ages while the car fills up? The genuine answer, and I'm really not trying to be a smart arse, is that they can't. There's no way to charge a car on the ground from your upper floor flat, and you can't trail leads across the pavement. You can't hang around at the local ChargeMaster point for even 3 hours before you set off on your journey to work.
So, obviously, EVs aren't for everyone. I think the problem is that this point is so obvious, that pro-EV posters can't help but make the smart arse comments (I almost dived in with one earlier!). But EVs aren't going to be compulsory, so if they're not right for you, you'd better buy an ICE car. For those of us who can use an EV sensibly, they're great - quick, cheap to run (if not buy), and fun.
How'd I do?
andywaterfall said:
Ok, I'll give it a go
It's a fair point, how do people in flats or with no private parking charge their cars without going to a public charging station and hanging around for ages while the car fills up? The genuine answer, and I'm really not trying to be a smart arse, is that they can't. There's no way to charge a car on the ground from your upper floor flat, and you can't trail leads across the pavement. You can't hang around at the local ChargeMaster point for even 3 hours before you set off on your journey to work.
So, obviously, EVs aren't for everyone. I think the problem is that this point is so obvious, that pro-EV posters can't help but make the smart arse comments (I almost dived in with one earlier!). But EVs aren't going to be compulsory, so if they're not right for you, you'd better buy an ICE car. For those of us who can use an EV sensibly, they're great - quick, cheap to run (if not buy), and fun.
How'd I do?
Brilliant. Thanks.It's a fair point, how do people in flats or with no private parking charge their cars without going to a public charging station and hanging around for ages while the car fills up? The genuine answer, and I'm really not trying to be a smart arse, is that they can't. There's no way to charge a car on the ground from your upper floor flat, and you can't trail leads across the pavement. You can't hang around at the local ChargeMaster point for even 3 hours before you set off on your journey to work.
So, obviously, EVs aren't for everyone. I think the problem is that this point is so obvious, that pro-EV posters can't help but make the smart arse comments (I almost dived in with one earlier!). But EVs aren't going to be compulsory, so if they're not right for you, you'd better buy an ICE car. For those of us who can use an EV sensibly, they're great - quick, cheap to run (if not buy), and fun.
How'd I do?
To be honest, I knew the answer, but I wondered if there was a plan I didn't heard of.
It's fundamental weakness with EVs at the moment, but one I think is crucial.
The range of an EV restricts their use if you live in the countryside - where every journey could be some distance or so many jobs require a car - and it also restricts their use in cities where surely the pollution benefits are more pressing and the journeys tend to be shorter.
Hackney said:
Brilliant. Thanks.
To be honest, I knew the answer, but I wondered if there was a plan I didn't heard of.
It's fundamental weakness with EVs at the moment, but one I think is crucial.
The range of an EV restricts their use if you live in the countryside - where every journey could be some distance or so many jobs require a car - and it also restricts their use in cities where surely the pollution benefits are more pressing and the journeys tend to be shorter.
But even in the countryside, are you ever more than 100 miles from a plug-socket? My mum and dad live in a beetroot field, yet they are perfect candidates for an EV based on their actual car-use.To be honest, I knew the answer, but I wondered if there was a plan I didn't heard of.
It's fundamental weakness with EVs at the moment, but one I think is crucial.
The range of an EV restricts their use if you live in the countryside - where every journey could be some distance or so many jobs require a car - and it also restricts their use in cities where surely the pollution benefits are more pressing and the journeys tend to be shorter.
My neighbours who actually have EVs... one cycles to work, the other is retired, so they are not being used for essential commuting work anyway. You'd have to be nuts to commute by car round my way, the traffic is horrendous.
Not having to visit a petrol stations or pay for the privilege of the same electricity in a charge zone is also the counter advantage to many. Especially if you go 'off grid' and make your own go-go juice. There is less incentive to jump EV if you can't charge at home, that's obvious, unless of course your employer has stations.
It's like rocking up to a mates house with a blu ray and then moaning you can't play it in his DVD player... It's so something you can learn about before you get there. As more people get blu rays more blu ray players will start popping up.
It's like rocking up to a mates house with a blu ray and then moaning you can't play it in his DVD player... It's so something you can learn about before you get there. As more people get blu rays more blu ray players will start popping up.
Hackney said:
andywaterfall said:
Ok, I'll give it a go
It's a fair point, how do people in flats or with no private parking charge their cars without going to a public charging station and hanging around for ages while the car fills up? The genuine answer, and I'm really not trying to be a smart arse, is that they can't. There's no way to charge a car on the ground from your upper floor flat, and you can't trail leads across the pavement. You can't hang around at the local ChargeMaster point for even 3 hours before you set off on your journey to work.
So, obviously, EVs aren't for everyone. I think the problem is that this point is so obvious, that pro-EV posters can't help but make the smart arse comments (I almost dived in with one earlier!). But EVs aren't going to be compulsory, so if they're not right for you, you'd better buy an ICE car. For those of us who can use an EV sensibly, they're great - quick, cheap to run (if not buy), and fun.
How'd I do?
Brilliant. Thanks.It's a fair point, how do people in flats or with no private parking charge their cars without going to a public charging station and hanging around for ages while the car fills up? The genuine answer, and I'm really not trying to be a smart arse, is that they can't. There's no way to charge a car on the ground from your upper floor flat, and you can't trail leads across the pavement. You can't hang around at the local ChargeMaster point for even 3 hours before you set off on your journey to work.
So, obviously, EVs aren't for everyone. I think the problem is that this point is so obvious, that pro-EV posters can't help but make the smart arse comments (I almost dived in with one earlier!). But EVs aren't going to be compulsory, so if they're not right for you, you'd better buy an ICE car. For those of us who can use an EV sensibly, they're great - quick, cheap to run (if not buy), and fun.
How'd I do?
To be honest, I knew the answer, but I wondered if there was a plan I didn't heard of.
It's fundamental weakness with EVs at the moment, but one I think is crucial.
The range of an EV restricts their use if you live in the countryside - where every journey could be some distance or so many jobs require a car - and it also restricts their use in cities where surely the pollution benefits are more pressing and the journeys tend to be shorter.
There's no plan that I know of, or can even think of, that will get over the problem of charging a car that is some distance (horizontally or vertically) from your home.Also, my guess is that BMW et al have done a fair bit of research into whether their massive investment in EVs is going to be worthwhile, and that that research holds more weight than your or my inklings about whether EVs are a good idea or not.
Hackney said:
Brilliant. Thanks.
To be honest, I knew the answer, but I wondered if there was a plan I didn't heard of.
It's fundamental weakness with EVs at the moment, but one I think is crucial.
The range of an EV restricts their use if you live in the countryside - where every journey could be some distance or so many jobs require a car - and it also restricts their use in cities where surely the pollution benefits are more pressing and the journeys tend to be shorter.
Here again we have this strange idea that everyone either lives in a city centre in a flat or over 50 miles from the city in the countryside.To be honest, I knew the answer, but I wondered if there was a plan I didn't heard of.
It's fundamental weakness with EVs at the moment, but one I think is crucial.
The range of an EV restricts their use if you live in the countryside - where every journey could be some distance or so many jobs require a car - and it also restricts their use in cities where surely the pollution benefits are more pressing and the journeys tend to be shorter.
Why does no one live in the bit between the city and the people over 50 miles away?
The truth is a huge amount of folk live in that area.
I live in that area.
I am 25 miles from aberdeen city centre and i am very much in the countryside. We don't even have a tarmac road with 1/2 a mile.
So work and back is 40 miles which is within an EV range.
The problem many people have is they believe that EVs are a replacement for the fossil fuelled car for all.
It isn't
Its an alternative
McWigglebum4th said:
Here again we have this strange idea that everyone either lives in a city centre in a flat or over 50 miles from the city in the countryside.
Why does no one live in the bit between the city and the people over 50 miles away?
The truth is a huge amount of folk live in that area.
I live in that area.
I am 25 miles from aberdeen city centre and i am very much in the countryside. We don't even have a tarmac road with 1/2 a mile.
So work and back is 40 miles which is within an EV range.
The problem many people have is they believe that EVs are a replacement for the fossil fuelled car for all.
It isn't
Its an alternative
And here we go again with interpreting two examples are an assumption of the whole.Why does no one live in the bit between the city and the people over 50 miles away?
The truth is a huge amount of folk live in that area.
I live in that area.
I am 25 miles from aberdeen city centre and i am very much in the countryside. We don't even have a tarmac road with 1/2 a mile.
So work and back is 40 miles which is within an EV range.
The problem many people have is they believe that EVs are a replacement for the fossil fuelled car for all.
It isn't
Its an alternative
I appreciate not everyone lives in one of those two areas. I was giving two examples of areas where I think it would be difficult to own an ev. The London example (or any city I think is very pertinent because the city living car owner should be the ideal ev customer.
Getting on for 10% of the population live in London; half of those people live in flats, so that's 3m people in London who need a solution before they can consider ownership. Not all of those 3m actually need a car; an EV wouldn't be right for the people that do - me for example, (flat living, in sales so need a usable range of hundreds not tens of miles).
That's before you factor in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham, Bristol.... EVs are not an alternative for a huger percentage of people. What are the plans for infrastructure development to change this? Is it workable? In my opinion, no.
That's why EVs are a short term, very niche solution.
Hackney said:
And here we go again with interpreting two examples are an assumption of the whole.
I appreciate not everyone lives in one of those two areas. I was giving two examples of areas where I think it would be difficult to own an ev. The London example (or any city I think is very pertinent because the city living car owner should be the ideal ev customer.
Getting on for 10% of the population live in London; half of those people live in flats, so that's 3m people in London who need a solution before they can consider ownership. Not all of those 3m actually need a car; an EV wouldn't be right for the people that do - me for example, (flat living, in sales so need a usable range of hundreds not tens of miles).
That's before you factor in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham, Bristol.... EVs are not an alternative for a huger percentage of people. What are the plans for infrastructure development to change this? Is it workable? In my opinion, no.
That's why EVs are a short term, very niche solution.
But while I don't always agree with how McW4th says it, he's right to interpret what you're saying the way he is! As I read it, you're saying that because not everyone could own an EV, they're doomed because there will be no demand (ie, to you, your two examples make up the whole). He, and I, are saying that there will be plenty of demand from people who don't fall into those two categories. I appreciate not everyone lives in one of those two areas. I was giving two examples of areas where I think it would be difficult to own an ev. The London example (or any city I think is very pertinent because the city living car owner should be the ideal ev customer.
Getting on for 10% of the population live in London; half of those people live in flats, so that's 3m people in London who need a solution before they can consider ownership. Not all of those 3m actually need a car; an EV wouldn't be right for the people that do - me for example, (flat living, in sales so need a usable range of hundreds not tens of miles).
That's before you factor in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham, Bristol.... EVs are not an alternative for a huger percentage of people. What are the plans for infrastructure development to change this? Is it workable? In my opinion, no.
That's why EVs are a short term, very niche solution.
And anyway, there are plenty of other types of car that won't work for a huge cross-section of people - eg sports cars, off-roaders - yet those niche products are in enough demand to make them worthwhile for manufacturers, and I don't berate anyone who chooses to own one. You're obviously not keen on them, but what makes EVs such a target for you?
Edited by andywaterfall on Sunday 16th February 14:00
Stick Legs said:
Why justify it?
I have not bought my 530d because I want economy. It is the car I liked at the price & it just happens to use diesel.
Why not the same argument for the i3?
After driving a Tesla Roadster & being a passenger in my friends Ampera I can see the argument for wanting an electric car for the whole torquey giant RC car buzz.
Would / will people really buy an i3 though when it's no longer subsidized and the "fuel" is no longer cheap? Imho if/when it gathers enough momentum HMRC will turn on them. I have not bought my 530d because I want economy. It is the car I liked at the price & it just happens to use diesel.
Why not the same argument for the i3?
After driving a Tesla Roadster & being a passenger in my friends Ampera I can see the argument for wanting an electric car for the whole torquey giant RC car buzz.
Tesla etc is probably different yes as being a genuine performance car vs a petrol equivalent albeit without the range
TX.
andywaterfall said:
Hackney said:
And here we go again with interpreting two examples are an assumption of the whole.
I appreciate not everyone lives in one of those two areas. I was giving two examples of areas where I think it would be difficult to own an ev. The London example (or any city I think is very pertinent because the city living car owner should be the ideal ev customer.
Getting on for 10% of the population live in London; half of those people live in flats, so that's 3m people in London who need a solution before they can consider ownership. Not all of those 3m actually need a car; an EV wouldn't be right for the people that do - me for example, (flat living, in sales so need a usable range of hundreds not tens of miles).
That's before you factor in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham, Bristol.... EVs are not an alternative for a huger percentage of people. What are the plans for infrastructure development to change this? Is it workable? In my opinion, no.
That's why EVs are a short term, very niche solution.
But while I don't always agree with how McW4th says it, he's right to interpret what you're saying the way he is! As I read it, you're saying that because not everyone could own an EV, they're doomed because there will be no demand (ie, to you, your two examples make up the whole). He, and I, are saying that there will be plenty of demand from people who don't fall into those two categories. I appreciate not everyone lives in one of those two areas. I was giving two examples of areas where I think it would be difficult to own an ev. The London example (or any city I think is very pertinent because the city living car owner should be the ideal ev customer.
Getting on for 10% of the population live in London; half of those people live in flats, so that's 3m people in London who need a solution before they can consider ownership. Not all of those 3m actually need a car; an EV wouldn't be right for the people that do - me for example, (flat living, in sales so need a usable range of hundreds not tens of miles).
That's before you factor in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham, Bristol.... EVs are not an alternative for a huger percentage of people. What are the plans for infrastructure development to change this? Is it workable? In my opinion, no.
That's why EVs are a short term, very niche solution.
And anyway, there are plenty of other types of car that won't work for a huge cross-section of people - eg sports cars, off-roaders - yet those niche products are in enough demand to make them worthwhile for manufacturers, and I don't berate anyone who chooses to own one. You're obviously not keen on them, but what makes EVs such a target for you?
It would be roughly 20 years old this year
Why do i mention this car?
As 20 years ago the vast majority of cars were petrol. diesel was seen as a tiny niche that would never be a success and it made (and still does) make people very angry
Here we are with an exact 50/50 split on new car sales between diesel and petrol
20 years from now i think we will see 33/33/33 spilt petrol diesel and electric
Fossil fuels are not going away and never will as 90% of the population apparently live in a 28th floor flat with no parking and have a 500 mile commute
Terminator X said:
Would / will people really buy an i3 though when it's no longer subsidized and the "fuel" is no longer cheap? Imho if/when it gathers enough momentum HMRC will turn on them.
Tesla etc is probably different yes as being a genuine performance car vs a petrol equivalent albeit without the range
TX.
I would as the idea of an EV looks preferable to me for 99% of the driving I do due to traffic and lack of nearby petrol stationsTesla etc is probably different yes as being a genuine performance car vs a petrol equivalent albeit without the range
TX.
If i get the job i have applied for then my commute will pass within 3 miles of a petrol station at the closest point. So once a week i will have a 6 mile detour to enjoy the convince of a 5 minute refill followed by standing for ten minutes while someone does there weekly shop.
And the nearest pay at pump is a 20 mile detour
McWigglebum4th said:
Fossil fuels are not going away and never will as 90% of the population apparently live in a 28th floor flat with no parking and have a 500 mile commute
See now, saying that over & over again in numerous threads is the kind of passive-aggressive thing the anti-EVs are talking about, and doesn't help our argument much IMO.andywaterfall said:
But while I don't always agree with how McW4th says it, he's right to interpret what you're saying the way he is! As I read it, you're saying that because not everyone could own an EV, they're doomed because there will be no demand (ie, to you, your two examples make up the whole). He, and I, are saying that there will be plenty of demand from people who don't fall into those two categories.
And anyway, there are plenty of other types of car that won't work for a huge cross-section of people - eg sports cars, off-roaders - yet those niche products are in enough demand to make them worthwhile for manufacturers, and I don't berate anyone who chooses to own one. You're obviously not keen on them, but what makes EVs such a target for you?
First of all Andy thanks for attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this.And anyway, there are plenty of other types of car that won't work for a huge cross-section of people - eg sports cars, off-roaders - yet those niche products are in enough demand to make them worthwhile for manufacturers, and I don't berate anyone who chooses to own one. You're obviously not keen on them, but what makes EVs such a target for you?
Edited by andywaterfall on Sunday 16th February 14:00
There's a million - possibly 60m - different types of driver in this country with as many different types of requirements. At the moment there are almost as many different types of car - 2 seater sports, saloon, hatch, MPV, 4x4... motorbike! Yet there are 2 "conventional" fuels. I was going to leave it there but someone will come along and say there are more and I've missed them all. So, there are 2 conventional mass market fuels, petrol and diesel. They are essentially the same and can be grouped together as fossil fuels.
The alternatives are hybrid (of which there are several models available) and full electric. Apologies if I've missed others but I think those two cover what we're talking about.
If the government or any other agency is going to theorise or legislate that EVs are the way forward they have to provide some sort of solution for the mass market. One of the drivers for the mass markets would have to be the cities, wouldn't it?
And cities would be one of the key beneficiaries of low or zero pollution vehicles.
However, if half of the city population can't charge an EV that's a big block on take up.
Actually 80% of the country's population lives in cities (according to Worldbank http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN... so based on statistics already posted:
80% of UK population live in cities
half of London population live in flats
so, of 63 million people, 50 million live in urban areas and half of those live in flats.
The market for EVs is suddenly very small. More Bentley than Ford Focus.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that given the legislation forcing us out of petrol vehicles; or making it more expensive to own and run them I'd like the government authorised alternative to be less exclusive.
I don't mind that an EV is not the best solution for my transport needs. If it was, I'd definitely be interested. What I do mind is that I am forced to pay additional charges for the vehicle I do need to fulfil my work and personal needs. That's unreasonable taxation, not an incentive to change.
Hackney said:
First of all Andy thanks for attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this.
Thanks, I do my best!Hackney said:
There's a million - possibly 60m - different types of driver in this country with as many different types of requirements. At the moment there are almost as many different types of car - 2 seater sports, saloon, hatch, MPV, 4x4... motorbike! Yet there are 2 "conventional" fuels. I was going to leave it there but someone will come along and say there are more and I've missed them all. So, there are 2 conventional mass market fuels, petrol and diesel. They are essentially the same and can be grouped together as fossil fuels.
The alternatives are hybrid (of which there are several models available) and full electric. Apologies if I've missed others but I think those two cover what we're talking about.
If the government or any other agency is going to theorise or legislate that EVs are the way forward they have to provide some sort of solution for the mass market. One of the drivers for the mass markets would have to be the cities, wouldn't it?
And cities would be one of the key beneficiaries of low or zero pollution vehicles.
However, if half of the city population can't charge an EV that's a big block on take up.
Actually 80% of the country's population lives in cities (according to Worldbank http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN... so based on statistics already posted:
80% of UK population live in cities
half of London population live in flats
so, of 63 million people, 50 million live in urban areas and half of those live in flats.
The market for EVs is suddenly very small. More Bentley than Ford Focus.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that given the legislation forcing us out of petrol vehicles; or making it more expensive to own and run them I'd like the government authorised alternative to be less exclusive.
I don't mind that an EV is not the best solution for my transport needs. If it was, I'd definitely be interested. What I do mind is that I am forced to pay additional charges for the vehicle I do need to fulfil my work and personal needs. That's unreasonable taxation, not an incentive to change.
Ah, well, now you've changed the subject, from saying there'll be no demand for EVs because of the difficulty in charging them for some people - I don't agree with your sums, but even if they're right, that's still a few million prospective owners - to saying there shouldn't be tax incentives for them, which is a different matter altogether. Before we move on, would you concede that there are probably a few million people out there who would suit an EV? Like me, for example? And if cities are one of the key beneficiaries of EVs being around, isn't it better that there are some rather than none at all?The alternatives are hybrid (of which there are several models available) and full electric. Apologies if I've missed others but I think those two cover what we're talking about.
If the government or any other agency is going to theorise or legislate that EVs are the way forward they have to provide some sort of solution for the mass market. One of the drivers for the mass markets would have to be the cities, wouldn't it?
And cities would be one of the key beneficiaries of low or zero pollution vehicles.
However, if half of the city population can't charge an EV that's a big block on take up.
Actually 80% of the country's population lives in cities (according to Worldbank http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN... so based on statistics already posted:
80% of UK population live in cities
half of London population live in flats
so, of 63 million people, 50 million live in urban areas and half of those live in flats.
The market for EVs is suddenly very small. More Bentley than Ford Focus.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that given the legislation forcing us out of petrol vehicles; or making it more expensive to own and run them I'd like the government authorised alternative to be less exclusive.
I don't mind that an EV is not the best solution for my transport needs. If it was, I'd definitely be interested. What I do mind is that I am forced to pay additional charges for the vehicle I do need to fulfil my work and personal needs. That's unreasonable taxation, not an incentive to change.
Edited by andywaterfall on Sunday 16th February 20:27
andywaterfall said:
Hackney said:
First of all Andy thanks for attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this.
Thanks, I do my best!Hackney said:
andywaterfall said:
Hackney said:
First of all Andy thanks for attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this.
Thanks, I do my best!andywaterfall said:
Hackney said:
There's a million - possibly 60m - different types of driver in this country with as many different types of requirements. At the moment there are almost as many different types of car - 2 seater sports, saloon, hatch, MPV, 4x4... motorbike! Yet there are 2 "conventional" fuels. I was going to leave it there but someone will come along and say there are more and I've missed them all. So, there are 2 conventional mass market fuels, petrol and diesel. They are essentially the same and can be grouped together as fossil fuels.
The alternatives are hybrid (of which there are several models available) and full electric. Apologies if I've missed others but I think those two cover what we're talking about.
If the government or any other agency is going to theorise or legislate that EVs are the way forward they have to provide some sort of solution for the mass market. One of the drivers for the mass markets would have to be the cities, wouldn't it?
And cities would be one of the key beneficiaries of low or zero pollution vehicles.
However, if half of the city population can't charge an EV that's a big block on take up.
Actually 80% of the country's population lives in cities (according to Worldbank http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN... so based on statistics already posted:
80% of UK population live in cities
half of London population live in flats
so, of 63 million people, 50 million live in urban areas and half of those live in flats.
The market for EVs is suddenly very small. More Bentley than Ford Focus.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that given the legislation forcing us out of petrol vehicles; or making it more expensive to own and run them I'd like the government authorised alternative to be less exclusive.
I don't mind that an EV is not the best solution for my transport needs. If it was, I'd definitely be interested. What I do mind is that I am forced to pay additional charges for the vehicle I do need to fulfil my work and personal needs. That's unreasonable taxation, not an incentive to change.
Ah, well, now you've changed the subject, from saying there'll be no demand for EVs because of the difficulty in charging them for some people - I don't agree with your sums, but even if they're right, that's still a few million prospective owners - to saying there shouldn't be tax incentives for them, which is a different matter altogether. Before we move on, would you concede that there are probably a few million people out there who would suit an EV? Like me, for example? And if cities are one of the key beneficiaries of EVs being around, isn't it better that there are some rather than none at all?The alternatives are hybrid (of which there are several models available) and full electric. Apologies if I've missed others but I think those two cover what we're talking about.
If the government or any other agency is going to theorise or legislate that EVs are the way forward they have to provide some sort of solution for the mass market. One of the drivers for the mass markets would have to be the cities, wouldn't it?
And cities would be one of the key beneficiaries of low or zero pollution vehicles.
However, if half of the city population can't charge an EV that's a big block on take up.
Actually 80% of the country's population lives in cities (according to Worldbank http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN... so based on statistics already posted:
80% of UK population live in cities
half of London population live in flats
so, of 63 million people, 50 million live in urban areas and half of those live in flats.
The market for EVs is suddenly very small. More Bentley than Ford Focus.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that given the legislation forcing us out of petrol vehicles; or making it more expensive to own and run them I'd like the government authorised alternative to be less exclusive.
I don't mind that an EV is not the best solution for my transport needs. If it was, I'd definitely be interested. What I do mind is that I am forced to pay additional charges for the vehicle I do need to fulfil my work and personal needs. That's unreasonable taxation, not an incentive to change.
Edited by andywaterfall on Sunday 16th February 20:27
UK population? Worldbank say 80% of UK population live in cities, that's 50m
50% of the London population live in flats.... why would other cities be different?.... 25m
I think there is a demand. I think there are a lot of people like yourself where EV is practical if not even perfect transport solution.
My objection is that penalties and incentives seem to be based on the whole country being the ideal customer. This isn't true. Hence my Focus / Bentley analogy (for MrWigglebum's benefit, other cars are available) The penalties and incentives seem to be based on the size of the actual opportunity being similar to something "everyman" like the Focus when in actual fact the opportunity is for sales more in line with something like a Bentley.
There's no point trying to get 5 million people to buy a Bentley when it doesn't meet their needs.
However, market the Focus to them and they'll be more receptive.\
To answer (succinctly) your last point, there are probably a few million people out there who would suit an EV. It could be better that there are some, rather than no beneficiaries. Agreed.
My wariness is where incentives / penalties are based on EVs being suitable for all rather than a few.
So anyway, sorry everyone for derailing what could be a useful thread. Back on track:
What about people complaining about the manufacture of all those batteries using up the world's resources? Lithium etc.
Also, transporting all the bits from all over the world (bodies, batteries etc) to the factory can't be very Eco-friendly either. Anyone have facts & figures about that please?
What about people complaining about the manufacture of all those batteries using up the world's resources? Lithium etc.
Also, transporting all the bits from all over the world (bodies, batteries etc) to the factory can't be very Eco-friendly either. Anyone have facts & figures about that please?
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