Rocketing electricity prices and EV Viability
Discussion
5s Alive said:
Mikehig said:
No ideas for a name said:
Mikehig said:
That signal problem looks likely to become a national one. Apparently most existing meters use the old 2/3G system to communicate which is due to be shut-down and re-assigned in the next 3 - 4 years.
I read that by chance on a techie website: others with more knowledge may be able to confirm if it's correct and whether it's a major problem.
Planned for 2033, so we have another 11 years.I read that by chance on a techie website: others with more knowledge may be able to confirm if it's correct and whether it's a major problem.
I suspect I have the same issue - but further south in North Yorkshire
I’ve been told to get my WAN tested…..
Well, my master plan of booking a meter change in the hopes that I'd either get smart meters or they'd establish that they can't be fitted and either way leave me alone has failed as the engineer who spent about 40 minutes on site and talking to me has booked the visit under 'customer not home' so looks like I'm back to Sq 1. Foiled by an evil genius yet again.
DonkeyApple said:
Well, my master plan of booking a meter change in the hopes that I'd either get smart meters or they'd establish that they can't be fitted and either way leave me alone has failed as the engineer who spent about 40 minutes on site and talking to me has booked the visit under 'customer not home' so looks like I'm back to Sq 1. Foiled by an evil genius yet again.
My proud posting earlier of a switch to Octopus and a new meter within 20 days fell flat yesterday.They did turn up, but on inspecting the cut-out found that it needed to be changed before the meter man could do his stuff.
Of course the cut-out is the DNO's responsibility, so we are now waiting for them to come out.
[It was a genuine problem - it is an old type cut-out that has crimped and bolted connections for the tails - meter man can only deal with screw type terminals. Tails need to be changed as they are presently 32mm and only 25mm will fit in to the new meter.]
DonkeyApple said:
Well, my master plan of booking a meter change in the hopes that I'd either get smart meters or they'd establish that they can't be fitted and either way leave me alone has failed as the engineer who spent about 40 minutes on site and talking to me has booked the visit under 'customer not home' so looks like I'm back to Sq 1. Foiled by an evil genius yet again.
Was he an android? "Engineer says" sounds remarkably similar to "computer says".I only had the smart meter fitted to get a freebie 100a double pole isolator to ease the installation of the EV charge point. I'm not actually bothered that the meter can't connect with network. Ignoring that it actually does...
I thought about just having the meter changed and if he could have done both then I might have done, even though it would have probably just lead to a barrage of contacts and pesterings about not getting a signal. The fact that he wasn't qualified for the particular gas meter and nor was there room apparently to replace the electricity meter meant the most sensible option by far was to stick with the old system that does work.
DonkeyApple said:
... The fact that he wasn't qualified for the particular gas meter and nor was there room apparently to replace the electricity meter meant the most sensible option by far was to stick with the old system that does work.
Do you have other equipment in your meter box?I see this as a big future problem with many installers using the space that is supposed to be reserved for the DNO use, for customer's kit inside the meter box enclosure.
No ideas for a name said:
DonkeyApple said:
... The fact that he wasn't qualified for the particular gas meter and nor was there room apparently to replace the electricity meter meant the most sensible option by far was to stick with the old system that does work.
Do you have other equipment in your meter box?I see this as a big future problem with many installers using the space that is supposed to be reserved for the DNO use, for customer's kit inside the meter box enclosure.
The space is built into the stone wall so not going to be enlarged. There is probably a solution but in all likelihood, finding it would probably require me to essentially get a job at EDF and find the one bloke who knows or invite a lifetime of blokes turning up and saying the same thing.
It's just one of those things that is almost certainly an infinity loop of corporate stupidity.
DonkeyApple said:
....There is probably a solution but in all likelihood, finding it would probably require me to essentially get a job at EDF and find the one bloke who knows or invite a lifetime of blokes turning up and saying the same thing.
Due to having been in the loop of trying to get several sites sorted, I now know several of the meter fitters, some of the DNO ground workers, and a few of the DNO engineers. An 'ordinary' consumer stands no chance of getting a non-standard install sorted very easily!No ideas for a name said:
DonkeyApple said:
....There is probably a solution but in all likelihood, finding it would probably require me to essentially get a job at EDF and find the one bloke who knows or invite a lifetime of blokes turning up and saying the same thing.
Due to having been in the loop of trying to get several sites sorted, I now know several of the meter fitters, some of the DNO ground workers, and a few of the DNO engineers. An 'ordinary' consumer stands no chance of getting a non-standard install sorted very easily!
I've just noticed I stuck the above post here and not on a smart meter thread elsewhere.
DonkeyApple said:
Especially if that person can't even post on the right thread!!!
I've just noticed I stuck the above post here and not on a smart meter thread elsewhere.
Me too! Maybe I shouldn't use that phrase.I've just noticed I stuck the above post here and not on a smart meter thread elsewhere.
Back to pricing, even my man maths can't make solar stack up.
Sometimes I need to prove things to myself so, some rough calculations.
As an 'at cost' solution rather than getting a company to organise it...
(Normalised to 1kWp system ... obviously multiply up for a real install)
Apparently in the UK, you can expect around 1000kWh per year for a 1kWp system
330Wp panels cost £330
So, around £1000 for 1kWp
Yields 1000kWh * 0.15 (present kWh rate) = £150 pa
Payback £1000/£150 = 6.6 years [for the panels only]
Of course if rates are 30p kWh then the payback time is halved.
In a real system, there is an inverter to pay for, plus mountings and installation.
Still sounds almost reasonable.
But of course, you have to be in a position to actually use all of the power generated (or sell back to the grid, or store it).
Without FIT, you can only sell it for say 5.5p (Octopus Outgoing).
In the middle of summer, you would be capable of generating 1kW and nowhere to use it.
This implies it really needs a battery, which at useful sizes comes in as very expensive and wipes out any 'profit' from generation.
EDIT: Actually, I used an inflated cost of panels to include the cost for mounting etc. 330Wp panels are about £200 'bare', the £330 was an estimate of the mounted and 'inverted' cost.
Edited by No ideas for a name on Friday 21st January 11:25
No ideas for a name said:
Me too! Maybe I shouldn't use that phrase.
Back to pricing, even my man maths can't make solar stack up.
Sometimes I need to prove things to myself so, some rough calculations.
As an 'at cost' solution rather than getting a company to organise it...
(Normalised to 1kWp system ... obviously multiply up for a real install)
Apparently in the UK, you can expect around 1000kWh per year for a 1kWp system
330Wp panels cost £330
So, around £1000 for 1kWp
Yields 1000kWh * 0.15 (present kWh rate) = £150 pa
Payback £1000/£150 = 6.6 years [for the panels only]
Of course if rates are 30p kWh then the payback time is halved.
In a real system, there is an inverter to pay for, plus mountings and installation.
Still sounds almost reasonable.
But of course, you have to be in a position to actually use all of the power generated (or sell back to the grid, or store it).
Without FIT, you can only sell it for say 5.5p (Octopus Outgoing).
In the middle of summer, you would be capable of generating 1kW and nowhere to use it.
This implies it really needs a battery, which at useful sizes comes in as very expensive and wipes out any 'profit' from generation.
Yup. Solar is generated when we don't need it and we can't store it. That's the rough outline of the problem in the U.K. The secondary issue is that your inefficient, high cost home brew set up then has to compete against a highly efficient national system on price. Back to pricing, even my man maths can't make solar stack up.
Sometimes I need to prove things to myself so, some rough calculations.
As an 'at cost' solution rather than getting a company to organise it...
(Normalised to 1kWp system ... obviously multiply up for a real install)
Apparently in the UK, you can expect around 1000kWh per year for a 1kWp system
330Wp panels cost £330
So, around £1000 for 1kWp
Yields 1000kWh * 0.15 (present kWh rate) = £150 pa
Payback £1000/£150 = 6.6 years [for the panels only]
Of course if rates are 30p kWh then the payback time is halved.
In a real system, there is an inverter to pay for, plus mountings and installation.
Still sounds almost reasonable.
But of course, you have to be in a position to actually use all of the power generated (or sell back to the grid, or store it).
Without FIT, you can only sell it for say 5.5p (Octopus Outgoing).
In the middle of summer, you would be capable of generating 1kW and nowhere to use it.
This implies it really needs a battery, which at useful sizes comes in as very expensive and wipes out any 'profit' from generation.
It's why the retail solar industry took grants and went knocking on the doors of easily duped, older people to make sales. It's a harsh way of looking at it but the U.K. residential solar industry is much closer to being a massive door knocking sales scandal than it is to being a logical financial investment or even an ecological act.
There's a reason why we've had threads on solar for nearly twenty years on PH as people have repeatedly looked to see if it can add up. It doesn't for all but some edge cases.
Some victims will be paying more in junk debt funding than their original utility bill costs.
I'd like nothing more than to fill the non visible sections of roof that I have with solar and to stick a massive storage solution in a barn but it's never added up at any level. I've even stripped it down to the basic core energy arbitrage of creating enough domestic storage to buy from the market overnight and sell back during the day but that is the simplest way to see that the numbers don't add up.
Wind is more interesting. We have the land to be able to do this and the perfect geography. The theoretical benefit of wind over sun in the U.K. is that the periods of generation correlate better with usage needs and that potentially limits the amount of spend on storage that would be required. However, those numbers don't add up yet either.
The Grid remains the most efficient way to obtain electricity and given the rate that renewable is growing at we'll be able to run on pure renewable before any solar system could start generating positive revenue.
Given enough time we should reach the point that home generation and storage can be cost effective as a means to limiting the amount needed to be purchased but we're looking at years, maybe a decade and it brings back the simple fact that if domestic energy storage becomes efficient then so will have national storage so there will be no arbitrage and far greater price stability.
DonkeyApple said:
....
Given enough time we should reach the point that home generation and storage can be cost effective as a means to limiting the amount needed to be purchased but we're looking at years, maybe a decade and it brings back the simple fact that if domestic energy storage becomes efficient then so will have national storage so there will be no arbitrage and far greater price stability.
The only way I can see domestic generation or more likely storage working is vehicle to grid.Given enough time we should reach the point that home generation and storage can be cost effective as a means to limiting the amount needed to be purchased but we're looking at years, maybe a decade and it brings back the simple fact that if domestic energy storage becomes efficient then so will have national storage so there will be no arbitrage and far greater price stability.
In the future when most people have an electric vehicle with say 100kWh storage sitting outside their house, a deal with the electricity company to even out demand probably works.
I know it isn't that simple as there is battery 'wear'/aging to take in to account but in the fullness of time that can get averaged out.
I guess it is at least 10 years off before it becomes appropriate for the masses (and those with off street parking so you can connect the vehicle).
No ideas for a name said:
The only way I can see domestic generation or more likely storage working is vehicle to grid.
In the future when most people have an electric vehicle with say 100kWh storage sitting outside their house, a deal with the electricity company to even out demand probably works.
I know it isn't that simple as there is battery 'wear'/aging to take in to account but in the fullness of time that can get averaged out.
I guess it is at least 10 years off before it becomes appropriate for the masses (and those with off street parking so you can connect the vehicle).
Yup. Integrating the car which has already been paid for as part of the household energy network is a solution. In the future when most people have an electric vehicle with say 100kWh storage sitting outside their house, a deal with the electricity company to even out demand probably works.
I know it isn't that simple as there is battery 'wear'/aging to take in to account but in the fullness of time that can get averaged out.
I guess it is at least 10 years off before it becomes appropriate for the masses (and those with off street parking so you can connect the vehicle).
The real return is the 'Yorkshireman' play whereby you collect free toilet roll (electricity) while somewhere else and use it at home.
No ideas for a name said:
The only way I can see domestic generation or more likely storage working is vehicle to grid.
In the future when most people have an electric vehicle with say 100kWh storage sitting outside their house, a deal with the electricity company to even out demand probably works.l
Great idea in theory but human nature will see to it never working.In the future when most people have an electric vehicle with say 100kWh storage sitting outside their house, a deal with the electricity company to even out demand probably works.l
Nissan launched the Leaf in 2011 with massive ambitions based on very objective figures on daily trip range and therefore range needed for an EV.
In many ways Nissan was 100% right but yet here we are 10 years later and the mass majority are still sitting on their hands waiting for a 500 mile range EV for 'just in case' event that has never happened or unlikely to happen more than once a year.
The idea some how EV owners who are already obsessed with battery degredation even though it has no real impact (like me), will happily volunteer to stress their EV traction packs even more is just a none starter. Thats even before you tell people their potential need to travel 500 miles none stop now needs to be balanced by keeping the lights ok in the house!!
The crude reality is for winter, when the sun doesn't shine enough for solar PV, the wind stops blowing as much (who knows how climate change will effect UK wind resources in the future?), and everyone wants to keep the lights on, charge their EV, heat their home via heat pumps, we need reliable power generation and renewables sadly have shown they just aren't reliable.
How many people in the UK fancy upsetting Putin even more if it means energy bills might double again? Ukraine looks awfully far away on the map.
For all the talk about limiting global temperature rises, seeing a doubling of energy bills seems much more important than looking at temperature charts some scientists have drawn up.
I really enjoyed 'Don't look up' on Netflix, I think its a great summary of our amazing achievements on this planet, and almost certainly predicts what coming in the future. But its only a film, and we are all seeing our energy costs going up, so I rather our government finds a way to deal with reality right now first and foremost. How they do it am not sure I care that much, as long as prices come down.
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 22 January 07:11
gangzoom: "and we are all seeing our energy costs going up, so I rather our government finds a way to deal with reality right now first and foremost. How they do it am not sure I care that much, as long as prices come down."
Amen to that!
I've been told that there is a report in the Times saying that all of the Green Levies currently applied to electricity bills are going to be moved into general expenditure. While that sounds like shuffling the deckchairs, it should knock quite a chunk off power bills as those levies reportedly total about £10 bn.
Amen to that!
I've been told that there is a report in the Times saying that all of the Green Levies currently applied to electricity bills are going to be moved into general expenditure. While that sounds like shuffling the deckchairs, it should knock quite a chunk off power bills as those levies reportedly total about £10 bn.
PushedDover said:
5s Alive said:
Mikehig said:
No ideas for a name said:
Mikehig said:
That signal problem looks likely to become a national one. Apparently most existing meters use the old 2/3G system to communicate which is due to be shut-down and re-assigned in the next 3 - 4 years.
I read that by chance on a techie website: others with more knowledge may be able to confirm if it's correct and whether it's a major problem.
Planned for 2033, so we have another 11 years.I read that by chance on a techie website: others with more knowledge may be able to confirm if it's correct and whether it's a major problem.
I suspect I have the same issue - but further south in North Yorkshire
I’ve been told to get my WAN tested…..
The Green WAN light?
wheres that then?
My man maths makes a solar panel/battery system stack up:
5kW system with an 8kW battery = £10k
Provides around 4000kW/yr
4000kW @ 40p = £1600
6.25yrs payback
Even if electricity somehow returns back to 20p that's a 12yr ROI.
With energy prices being what they are I don't see how a solar panel/battery system doesn't stack up
5kW system with an 8kW battery = £10k
Provides around 4000kW/yr
4000kW @ 40p = £1600
6.25yrs payback
Even if electricity somehow returns back to 20p that's a 12yr ROI.
With energy prices being what they are I don't see how a solar panel/battery system doesn't stack up
skinnyman said:
My man maths makes a solar panel/battery system stack up:
5kW system with an 8kW battery = £10k
Provides around 4000kW/yr
4000kW @ 40p = £1600
6.25yrs payback
Even if electricity somehow returns back to 20p that's a 12yr ROI.
With energy prices being what they are I don't see how a solar panel/battery system doesn't stack up
For me it's that payback time that pretty much ensures it doesn't stack up. Capex is far too high for such small returns which is what results in needing a huge time duration just to break even. You then are entering the realms of maintenance spend which will potentially decimate those fragile numbers. 5kW system with an 8kW battery = £10k
Provides around 4000kW/yr
4000kW @ 40p = £1600
6.25yrs payback
Even if electricity somehow returns back to 20p that's a 12yr ROI.
With energy prices being what they are I don't see how a solar panel/battery system doesn't stack up
But we'll see lots of people investing in long term solar on the back of short term gas costs.
In simple terms, paying £10k just to possibly get that £10k back in ten years time so long as there are no problems isn't a logical financial decision. Especially given the likely scenarios in ten years time of much cheaper energy storage, lower dependency on gas.
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