Debunking some expected 'smart' comments

[McWigglebum4th]

andywaterfall said:

So anyway, sorry everyone for derailing what could be a useful thread. Back on track:

What about people complaining about the manufacture of all those batteries using up the world's resources? Lithium etc.

Also, transporting all the bits from all over the world (bodies, batteries etc) to the factory can't be very Eco-friendly either. Anyone have facts & figures about that please?

Well apart from Morgans it's not like you grow petrol powered cars

[McWigglebum4th]

Hackney said:

I didn't realise I'd changed the subject, sorry. My stats are based on the stats I could find.
UK population? Worldbank say 80% of UK population live in cities, that's 50m
50% of the London population live in flats.... why would other cities be different?.... 25m

I think there is a demand. I think there are a lot of people like yourself where EV is practical if not even perfect transport solution.

My objection is that penalties and incentives seem to be based on the whole country being the ideal customer. This isn't true. Hence my Focus / Bentley analogy (for MrWigglebum's benefit, other cars are available) The penalties and incentives seem to be based on the size of the actual opportunity being similar to something "everyman" like the Focus when in actual fact the opportunity is for sales more in line with something like a Bentley.

There's no point trying to get 5 million people to buy a Bentley when it doesn't meet their needs.
However, market the Focus to them and they'll be more receptive.\

To answer (succinctly) your last point, there are probably a few million people out there who would suit an EV. It could be better that there are some, rather than no beneficiaries. Agreed.

My wariness is where incentives / penalties are based on EVs being suitable for all rather than a few.

Read this

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

It might give you a few surprises on average joiner length and what is the normal amount of cars per household

And a mere 58% of cars are parked on private property overnight

[andywaterfall]

Hackney said:

I didn't realise I'd changed the subject, sorry. My stats are based on the stats I could find.
UK population? Worldbank say 80% of UK population live in cities, that's 50m
50% of the London population live in flats.... why would other cities be different?.... 25m

I think there is a demand. I think there are a lot of people like yourself where EV is practical if not even perfect transport solution.

My objection is that penalties and incentives seem to be based on the whole country being the ideal customer. This isn't true. Hence my Focus / Bentley analogy (for MrWigglebum's benefit, other cars are available) The penalties and incentives seem to be based on the size of the actual opportunity being similar to something "everyman" like the Focus when in actual fact the opportunity is for sales more in line with something like a Bentley.

There's no point trying to get 5 million people to buy a Bentley when it doesn't meet their needs.
However, market the Focus to them and they'll be more receptive.\

To answer (succinctly) your last point, there are probably a few million people out there who would suit an EV. It could be better that there are some, rather than no beneficiaries. Agreed.

My wariness is where incentives / penalties are based on EVs being suitable for all rather than a few.

Ok cool, thanks for agreement on those points.

On the tax side of things, if the powers-that-be think that EVs are a good idea (and I think we both agree they are), they have to start getting them on the road (to suitable buyers, obviously), and at this stage in their development, they need early adopters like me and some others on here to buy them, but given their shortcomings (range, cost to name two), we need incentives to make it work. Certainly I (and I think RossP & mids on here, amongst others) wouldn't have one if there hadn't been the £5k rebate and the £0 RFL, the £0 BIK, the VAT incentive etc. So if none get sold, the charging infrastructure doesn't get built, the manufacturers don't develop them to make them more efficient, nor do they one day invent something amazing to make them chargeable even if you live in a flat and they never take off. I realise a day will come when the incentives get taken away, but for now, I'm responding just as "they" want me to.

TLDR: The incentives are only for some right now, but they're there to get EVs off the ground, which is a good thing for all.

[Hackney]

McWigglebum4th said:

Read this

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

It might give you a few surprises on average joiner length and what is the normal amount of cars per household

And a mere 58% of cars are parked on private property overnight

So 42% aren't? And....I never asked about joiner length or cars per household but I'll be sure to read the article.

[Hackney]

andywaterfall said:

I know, that was the joke.

Yeah, thought so. If I wasn't so fed up with another person's stupid responses I'd have left it alone.

[McWigglebum4th]

Hackney said:

So 42% aren't? And....I never asked about joiner length or cars per household but I'll be sure to read the article.

So 42% of cars are parked on the road.

So 42% of cars can never be charged.

58% is hardly a tiny niche now is it

[Greg_D]

Hackney,

I'm not sure what your point is now? you are making some very passive aggressive comments on here regarding why EVs are not a good idea.

you have had a wide range of answers as to why it suits different people and why the 'basic market' is there regarding parking arrangements, charging infrastructure etc and why the government is supporting early adopters yet still you bang on!

No one has said that EVs are going to replace ICEs overnight, but there are a sufficient number of people who it could work seamlessly for to encourage major manufacturers to plough millions if not billions into EV development. What more do you want from us?

I am quite confident that if we revisit this thread in 20 years that you will eat humble pie and consider 2014 'you' to be pretty narrow minded, that said, noone can be certain so i think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[JonnyVTEC]

Yeah Im not really sure what point you are trying to make?

You seems to be going through the motion of asking questions, demanding the answers yet you already have the counter arguments primed.

[TransverseTight]

Snowboy said:

Well, by cropping my comment you've somewhat altered my question, and you've failed to answer it.

Assuming you fill up both the petrol and the electric car before the journey my question is around what happens in unexpected delays or diversions.
A petrol on a full tank can go 4-5 ours of stop start slow traffic, could an electric do that?
Or would it see the battery draining quickly?

A petrol car can be filled up in any number of garages around the country, but (I'm guessing) there aren't as many public charging points.

So, is it more likely you'll run out of power in an electric, have to seriously alter your journey?

Again, please bear in mind this is a friendly enquiry.
Abrupt and aggressive answers aren't necessary.

For a cost comparison see my thread here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Regarding in traffic - the motor is the biggest power drain - so if you are stationary only the heater and stereo will run down the battery. The motor will use a few 10's of kw to maintain constant velocity the peak output is about 125kw IIRC which you'll only use if you foot is flat to the floor. But 0 at stand still. The stereo and electric will consume a few hundred watts at most (depending on how loud you play it). My advice is if you plan to get stuck in winter take a coat and and ipod - then you can shut it down. Personally with my diesel 4x4 I also carry a spade, 4 packs of biscuits and 5 litres of water, two bags of grit and a winch, and blankets.

The zero energy use at zero mph is one of the best features of EVs in my opinion.

However if you do a lot of long journeys an i3 is the wrong car. Hang on Till Telsa bring out their 3 series rival - maybe later this year or early 2015. I doubt it will have 300 mile range like the Model S, but maybe closer to 200. With their free Supercharger stations expected to be all over Europe by end of 2015 you'll be able to drive to Le Mans in 2015 and stop off and recharge the batteries at "normal human" intervals when you need a break.

[edit] to add i forgot to mention the heater - can't be more than 1kw as the cabin would overheat pretty quickly - think about how a 1 bar electric fire heats a whole room. A car is going to need something around 500w and not permanently on - thermostatically controlled. So at 500w you'd get 44 hours out of a 22kw battery pack - if it was on continously. that will probably last loinger than a tank of petrol which you are burning through to make heat.

Edited by TransverseTight on Monday 17th February 13:06

[TransverseTight]

Hackney said:

Yes, as there clearly isn't the infrastructure, or community support for the prospective purchaser is there.
So, I'll ask again, how is the typical London dweller supposed to recharge their EV.

And please, no smart arse answers about us all having personal petrol stations. It's getting a bit tired now.

I spent a year living and working in London. Left my car up in the midlands and caught the train to Euston every Monday. There's the tube which defeats the point of having a car. Most of the people I knew who lived in london didn't have cars.

My GF from down there lived in a flat - there were about 100 flats in the street and about 10 cars. On the odd weekend I drove down in the car I could always get a space.

So I think the people who live in flats won't be worried about charging their EVs as they don't even bother with petrol cars. If they really wanted to, it would have been easy to install charging poles in the street and maybe designate a couple of spaces as EV spots.

Up in Brum - you'd have more of an issue - as public transport is a bit ste. However having lived in the "Modern" city flats - you'd make sure you get one with a parking space and get it kitted with a charger. There's a company doing "rent an EV" somewhere where I've seen the EV spaces with the cars on charge ready for someone to collect.

but the reality is this... unless an EV suits someones driving habits they won't buy one. I don't expect all cars to be EVs until 2100! Maybe a bit sooner. I'd only expect less than 10% of new cars sold to be EVs by 2020. It will take further development on batteries (or alternate power sources) to get them into more people's hands. At the moment I couldn't have one as an only car, but as the second car it would be fine.