LPG: Are smug grins allowed watching you queue for fuel?
Discussion
GT911 said:
The EV battery degradation/sustainability thing has been discussed to death on half a dozen other threads.
Suffice to say that there is no reason the batteries cannot either be 100% redeployed (in static applications) or 95% recycled indefinitely.
OK, I'm not very well informed, however I wonder if my central point stands? It's not that these cells can't be replaced, it's more that human-nature being what it is, will they be? A car at the end of its battery-life will be say 5-6 years old. Minded to the bill to get it up and going again, unless before sale the 'from new' owner is forced to clear up the mess created, ie dispose/replace the cells in law (highly unlikely) what are we faced with on the used market? The tired cell is in a static application, or more likely melted-down, and the car, a pile of poo.Suffice to say that there is no reason the batteries cannot either be 100% redeployed (in static applications) or 95% recycled indefinitely.
This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.
15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.
Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.
Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 7th October 10:16
OldDuffer said:
GT911 said:
The EV battery degradation/sustainability thing has been discussed to death on half a dozen other threads.
Suffice to say that there is no reason the batteries cannot either be 100% redeployed (in static applications) or 95% recycled indefinitely.
OK, I'm not very well informed, however I wonder if my central point stands? It's not that these cells can't be replaced, it's more that human-nature being what it is, will they be? A car at the end of its battery-life will be say 5-6 years old. Minded to the bill to get it up and going again, unless before sale the 'from new' owner is forced to clear up the mess created, ie dispose/replace the cells in law (highly unlikely) what are we faced with on the used market? The tired cell is in a static application, or more likely melted-down, and the car, a pile of poo.Suffice to say that there is no reason the batteries cannot either be 100% redeployed (in static applications) or 95% recycled indefinitely.
This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.
15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.
Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.
Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 7th October 10:16
BMW for example offer a clear battery capacity loss warranty, and has guaranteed at least 70% capacity for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Replacement battery packs (new and OEM) can be purchased for less money than the equivalent IC engine.
OldDuffer said:
OK, I'm not very well informed, however I wonder if my central point stands? It's not that these cells can't be replaced, it's more that human-nature being what it is, will they be? A car at the end of its battery-life will be say 5-6 years old. Minded to the bill to get it up and going again, unless before sale the 'from new' owner is forced to clear up the mess created, ie dispose/replace the cells in law (highly unlikely) what are we faced with on the used market? The tired cell is in a static application, or more likely melted-down, and the car, a pile of poo.
This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.
15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.
Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.
If you are not well-informed why are you making wildly inaccurate claims on here rather than doing a bit of googling.This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.
15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.
Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.
Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 7th October 10:16
This is real world user data for the Tesla batteries.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-...
Marked improvement can be seen with the more recent cell chemistry.
To cover 200,000 miles will take the average UK driver 25 years.
On a single battery pack....
And if we're concerned about environmental impact - comparison of CNG, FCEV and BEV, all using natural gas as the fuel source...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
Emissions per mile are way worse for the CNG vehicle and that's without accounting for the fact that a proportion of the electricity used by the BEV would almost certainly be from less polluting sources than natural gas.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
Emissions per mile are way worse for the CNG vehicle and that's without accounting for the fact that a proportion of the electricity used by the BEV would almost certainly be from less polluting sources than natural gas.
GT911 said:
If you are not well-informed why are you making wildly inaccurate claims on here rather than doing a bit of googling.
This is real world user data for the Tesla batteries.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-...
Marked improvement can be seen with the more recent cell chemistry.
To cover 200,000 miles will take the average UK driver 25 years.
On a single battery pack....
Seems I'm better informed than I thought, ^^^^ that's more or less as I understood it. Yes, you could well see 200,000 from one EV battery, problems comes if you intend to do those 200,000 over 15 years. This is real world user data for the Tesla batteries.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-...
Marked improvement can be seen with the more recent cell chemistry.
To cover 200,000 miles will take the average UK driver 25 years.
On a single battery pack....
Pixelpeep 135 said:
Replacement battery packs (new and OEM) can be purchased for less money than the equivalent IC engine.
rscott said:
And if we're concerned about environmental impact - comparison of CNG, FCEV and BEV, all using natural gas as the fuel source...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
Emissions per mile are way worse for the CNG vehicle and that's without accounting for the fact that a proportion of the electricity used by the BEV would almost certainly be from less polluting sources than natural gas.
I remember when this came up with Simon Yorkshire, he repeatedly made claims about the clean nature of LPG, referencing tests done by the LPG lobby groups.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
Emissions per mile are way worse for the CNG vehicle and that's without accounting for the fact that a proportion of the electricity used by the BEV would almost certainly be from less polluting sources than natural gas.
However, counter to that were studies that actually tested retrofitted cars, and then it was found that the poor quality (calibration and tuning), of retrofits meant the emissions were far, far worse than what the LPG lobby group had achieved in a lab.
Simon was however the greatest LPG installer that ever lived. He couldn't sign off his own work, but he was the greatest.
Evanivitch said:
OldDuffer said:
Seems I'm better informed than I thought, ^^^^ that's more or less as I understood it. Yes, you could well see 200,000 from one EV battery, problems comes if you intend to do those 200,000 over 15 years.
Where does the data use time as a variable?If anything that’s when the degradation starts to flatline.
Articles I’ve read have suggested up to half a million miles is feasible and that Tesla are designing for a million miles in the near future.
Nothing about a time limit….
Edited by GT911 on Saturday 9th October 17:05
GT911 said:
Articles I’ve read have suggested up to half a million miles is feasible and that Tesla are designing for a million miles in the near future.
Nothing about a time limit….
In which case, we have common ground. And no mention of a time limit. My set-up does have a time limit. The tank will hold fuel with X amount of energy and according to the manufacturer be safe to do this with a time limit. It's 20 years. I can fill it once, and use that energy 20 years later, or fill it umpteen times. As I see fit, it's ability to hold X amount will not change. It's capacity won't change, however after 20 years, it's ability to do that safely does. In that respect it does not differ from a petrol tank. Mine too is a pricey item, hence I've moved it to a fresh vehicle With 4-5 years left, the tank has about 350K on it. Nothing about a time limit….
Edited by GT911 on Saturday 9th October 17:05
>Nothing about a time limit….<
You're all taking that to mean there is no time limit. I see... I took it to mean, it was convenient not to mention there is one? If you're right, a no time limit 'energy container' of any kind is quite something. If at 7-8 years you've a wish to do another 200K, you can. In which case I'm going to do that rare thing on the internet, and say I was wrong.
Edited by OldDuffer on Monday 11th October 01:43
OldDuffer said:
GT911 said:
If you are not well-informed why are you making wildly inaccurate claims on here rather than doing a bit of googling.
This is real world user data for the Tesla batteries.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-...
Marked improvement can be seen with the more recent cell chemistry.
To cover 200,000 miles will take the average UK driver 25 years.
On a single battery pack....
Seems I'm better informed than I thought, ^^^^ that's more or less as I understood it. Yes, you could well see 200,000 from one EV battery, problems comes if you intend to do those 200,000 over 15 years. This is real world user data for the Tesla batteries.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-...
Marked improvement can be seen with the more recent cell chemistry.
To cover 200,000 miles will take the average UK driver 25 years.
On a single battery pack....
Pixelpeep 135 said:
Replacement battery packs (new and OEM) can be purchased for less money than the equivalent IC engine.
Bottom line is - they've been "improving and refining" the internal combustion engine since 1860 and it's STILL only has an overall efficiency of 13% compared to an EV which is currently at 73%.
I'm happy with my choices, excited for the future of the automotive world and embrace change with a level, logical head. You should try the same.
I am ok with the fact your opinion differs, and my goal here is to educate, not argue. For this reason, this will be my last reply to you on this subject.
rscott said:
OldDuffer - can you clarify something please? In the subject and opening posts you extoll the virtues of LPG, but later you say you haven't used it for a long time as your vehicles run on CNG?
Which is it please?
Read it again, I have never extolled the virtues of LPG. I run CNG. CNG is far from perfect, yet from where I sit no worse than EV. In the areas that matter to me, range, vehicle longevity, cost and access in my budget, it obliterates any current EV. In those areas that matter less (to me), it's far worse. All alternative fuels have their faults. Almost all of you ran away with the idea, I'm from Yorkshire, and run LPG. Somethign about how I 'witter on' like LPGs equiv. to a 'blind to all' Elon disciple. I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings, for my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot.Which is it please?
I let it run, explaining the difference gets tiresome, invites lots of stupid/predictable questions from those too idle to use a keyboard. Most still refuse to even accept there is such a thing, and come back with mindless shortgame-objections when they do concede. Elon disciple.
Unlike the EV crowd, I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings. For my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot. Thus it works for me.
My bet is, it won't suit you, and I stress again, 'it won't suit you'. This - my last post.
Edited by OldDuffer on Tuesday 12th October 09:56
OldDuffer said:
rscott said:
OldDuffer - can you clarify something please? In the subject and opening posts you extoll the virtues of LPG, but later you say you haven't used it for a long time as your vehicles run on CNG?
Which is it please?
Read it again, I have never extolled the virtues of LPG. I run CNG. CNG is far from perfect, yet from where I sit no worse than EV. In the areas that matter to me, range, vehicle longevity, cost and access in my budget, it obliterates any current EV. In those areas that matter less (to me), it's far worse. All alternative fuels have their faults. Almost all of you ran away with the idea, I'm from Yorkshire, and run LPG. Somethign about how I 'witter on' like LPGs equiv. to a 'blind to all' Elon disciple. Which is it please?
I let it run, explaining the difference gets tiresome, invites lots of stupid/predictable questions from those too idle to use a keyboard. Most still refuse to even accept there is such a thing, and come back with mindless shortgame-objections when they do concede. This - my last post.
Edited by OldDuffer on Tuesday 12th October 09:45
My apologies, I was quoted before completing my post:
Read it again, I have never extolled the virtues of LPG. I run CNG. CNG is far from perfect, yet from where I sit no worse than EV. In the areas that matter to me, range, vehicle longevity, cost and access in my budget, it obliterates any current EV. In those areas that matter less (to me), it's far worse. All alternative fuels have their faults. Almost all of you ran away with the idea, I'm from Yorkshire, and run LPG. Somethign about how I 'witter on' like LPGs equiv. to a 'blind to all' Elon disciple. I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings, for my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot.
I let it run, explaining the difference gets tiresome, invites lots of stupid/predictable questions from those too idle to use a keyboard. And because the no-queue point stands, I lumped the two together. It saves answering the "Never heard of it"... Most still refuse to even accept there is such a thing, and come back with mindless shortgame-objections when they do concede.
Unlike the EV crowd, I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings. For my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot. Thus it works for me.
My bet is, it won't suit you, and I stress again, 'it won't suit you'. This - my last post.
Read it again, I have never extolled the virtues of LPG. I run CNG. CNG is far from perfect, yet from where I sit no worse than EV. In the areas that matter to me, range, vehicle longevity, cost and access in my budget, it obliterates any current EV. In those areas that matter less (to me), it's far worse. All alternative fuels have their faults. Almost all of you ran away with the idea, I'm from Yorkshire, and run LPG. Somethign about how I 'witter on' like LPGs equiv. to a 'blind to all' Elon disciple. I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings, for my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot.
I let it run, explaining the difference gets tiresome, invites lots of stupid/predictable questions from those too idle to use a keyboard. And because the no-queue point stands, I lumped the two together. It saves answering the "Never heard of it"... Most still refuse to even accept there is such a thing, and come back with mindless shortgame-objections when they do concede.
Unlike the EV crowd, I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings. For my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot. Thus it works for me.
My bet is, it won't suit you, and I stress again, 'it won't suit you'. This - my last post.
Edited by OldDuffer on Tuesday 12th October 10:17
OldDuffer said:
OK, I'm not very well informed, however I wonder if my central point stands? It's not that these cells can't be replaced, it's more that human-nature being what it is, will they be? A car at the end of its battery-life will be say 5-6 years old. Minded to the bill to get it up and going again, unless before sale the 'from new' owner is forced to clear up the mess created, ie dispose/replace the cells in law (highly unlikely) what are we faced with on the used market? The tired cell is in a static application, or more likely melted-down, and the car, a pile of poo.
This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.
15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.
Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.
Why are you making things up? It makes you look silly. This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.
15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.
Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.
Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 7th October 10:16
Just have a look at a 6 year old EV on autotrader.
It's not scrap is it? It's on its original battery isn't it? It works absolutely fine, doesn't it? It's worth a decent amount of money, isn't it?
Which people will and do pay, because it's almost as useful now as it was when it was new.
Back on thread ,and offering my experience of lpg.
In 2018 i aquired a very nice but oldish (89) vw t25 camper ,petrol auto and after a few jobs went to lemans classic,taking in the normandy beaches on way out and back,total mileage 1220m. fuel bill circa £250.
After chatting to a few owners of same type i decided to convert to lpg ,so all done over the winter of 2018/19 ,we then did the 2019 24 hour and a similar route around normandy ,total miles 1300, total combined fuel bill was £185 as lpg is both plentifull and inexpensive in france. It runs smoother on lpg
The conversion cost was around £400 inc valve protection and a test certificate using new and s/h parts.
Given 2020 was a no go abroad and it wasn't easy this year,we have just took in uk trips ,as and when allowed by the rules and i reckon the outlay is now in credit , the last fill up on 5/10 was 52 litres @ .63p total £33.40,that gives me around 280 miles , i think its a winner for my type of use and makes the camper viable to enjoy at sensible costs,tho its a shame that shell and calor fell out as the availability is more scarce now.
I appreciate its not for all ,but it is a viable option ,the Dacia dual fuel is the taxi of choice in spain now ,all on lpg .
As a side point , i visit nottingham frequently ,and all of the buses operated by the city are running on CNG , the air quality is vastly improved as a result ,far less diesel fumes to choke on in the city traffic.
Oh ,at last mot ,emissions were better (lower) than the new petrol stuff ,so another win.
In 2018 i aquired a very nice but oldish (89) vw t25 camper ,petrol auto and after a few jobs went to lemans classic,taking in the normandy beaches on way out and back,total mileage 1220m. fuel bill circa £250.
After chatting to a few owners of same type i decided to convert to lpg ,so all done over the winter of 2018/19 ,we then did the 2019 24 hour and a similar route around normandy ,total miles 1300, total combined fuel bill was £185 as lpg is both plentifull and inexpensive in france. It runs smoother on lpg
The conversion cost was around £400 inc valve protection and a test certificate using new and s/h parts.
Given 2020 was a no go abroad and it wasn't easy this year,we have just took in uk trips ,as and when allowed by the rules and i reckon the outlay is now in credit , the last fill up on 5/10 was 52 litres @ .63p total £33.40,that gives me around 280 miles , i think its a winner for my type of use and makes the camper viable to enjoy at sensible costs,tho its a shame that shell and calor fell out as the availability is more scarce now.
I appreciate its not for all ,but it is a viable option ,the Dacia dual fuel is the taxi of choice in spain now ,all on lpg .
As a side point , i visit nottingham frequently ,and all of the buses operated by the city are running on CNG , the air quality is vastly improved as a result ,far less diesel fumes to choke on in the city traffic.
Oh ,at last mot ,emissions were better (lower) than the new petrol stuff ,so another win.
Edited by oilrag1 on Tuesday 12th October 11:48
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