Seperate Meters for EV Chargers.
Discussion
bigothunter said:
DonkeyApple said:
Multiple taxes will be applied and their rates adjusted to achieve the desired balance between collection and control.
Precisely - the Chancellor will not ignore viable opportunities to collect tax including different electricity charges between domestic and EV use. Also I cannot imagine EVs being permitted to enjoy such low energy cost per mile, after their introductory honeymoon.Very obviously all aspects of EVs will be taxed and very obviously all current subsidies are to speed up the market growth to ensure the taxes can be levied as soon as possible.
EV taxation will also blend in with environmental taxes such as energy taxation quite efficiently. You don't really need to levy separate taxes on EV electricity when you can simply levy tax on all energy consumption above a base level that permits the poorest and most frugal to be omitted.
Despite everyone's grumbling about taxes, they are what makes this such an easy country to live in and allows people a quality of life well in excess of the labour they put in. And on the whole, it's pretty impressively equitable.
The key thing to note is that there are bugger all EVs in the U.K. and it's not even worth the paperwork to collect any taxes as of yet but better to pay subsidies to get more of them.
There are lots of social positives to scaled energy taxes from the absolute poorest, living in bedsit type homes paying no taxes to someone like myself who could stomach 100%+ taxation on energy consumption because it's a lifestyle choice and can be varied if needed. Such taxation dovetails perfectly with environmental objectives as the person lighting and heating a 6 bedroom detached house and running a pair of Taycans is very clearly vastly more polluting in their lifestyle than the bloke living in a bedsit. It fits perfectly with British political sensibilities in that you average chap will happily pay more in tax so long as the scum with the bigger house and nicer car is getting more of a kicking. And ot generally encourages everyone to be less wasteful and maybe even release family homes slightly sooner than they otherwise would have.
At the same time it's perfectly logical to think that once ULEZ is properly up and running and taxing all vehicles that cross its boundary that the next step will be to consider doing likewise with the motorway network etc.
kambites said:
bigothunter said:
Differential electricity taxation appears technologically simple and practical.
How? I haven't seen any sort of explanation about how it would work? No need for special coloured electrons, multiple meters or anything remotely clever. The utilities already have the systems to collect tiered taxes and to vary them on consumption.
DonkeyApple said:
It need not be any more complex than first x amount per month at zero tax, remainder at 25% and above a certain usage the utility collects 100%.
Then you end up with everyone who has switched to electric heating, as we are being told we have to, paying the higher rate of tax on 80% of their heating bill. It's not going to happen, it would be political suicide!I guess you could move electric heating onto a separate meter and charge a tiered rate on everything else, but that would make it significantly more expensive/complex to install and monitor.
Edited by kambites on Monday 10th January 17:37
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
It need not be any more complex than first x amount per month at zero tax, remainder at 25% and above a certain usage the utility collects 100%.
Then you end up with everyone who has switched to electric heating, as we are being told we have to, paying the higher rate of tax on 80% of their heating bill. It's not going to happen, it would be political suicide!I suspect that modern electric cars know exactly how much power they've drawn as well - no reason this can't be uploaded if preferred (or more likely, as well).
Much easier than trying to tell the difference between an EV and Storage heater via matching learning, or to install another 30 million smart meters.
Where the machine learning can be bought in is with identifying accounts that are pinged by ANPR more often than their mileage readings indicate they should be.
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
It need not be any more complex than first x amount per month at zero tax, remainder at 25% and above a certain usage the utility collects 100%.
Then you end up with everyone who has switched to electric heating, as we are being told we have to, paying the higher rate of tax on 80% of their heating bill. It's not going to happen, it would be political suicide!I guess you could move electric heating onto a separate meter and charge a tiered rate on everything else, but that would make it significantly more expensive/complex to install and monitor.
Edited by kambites on Monday 10th January 17:37
Tax is going to be raised on gas to move more people to electric just as people are being steered to electric cars.
People aren't being moved onto electric to save them money but to migrate away from local gas burning, like local petrol burning. All local burning is being taxed out. Of you have anything that burns anything you will have noticed over the last 40+ years you have been being steered away or along. Now, we are being steered out altogether.
The other reality is that it's irrelevant what your electrons are used for you will simply be taxed on each one above a certain level. Whether you use them in a kettle, car, to stimulate your gonads, you're going to be taxed. It's the only way to save kittens.
DonkeyApple said:
Tax is going to be raised on gas to move more people to electric just as people are being steered to electric cars.
Yes and it's absolutely not going to happen for the reason I stated. No government (even this one!) would be stupid enough to place a whacking great tax on domestic heating. I'm not saying they shouldn't, such a tax might well make sense. I'm saying they will not.
ETA: Thinking about it there's all sorts of taxes which would make a lot of sense from an environmental point of view which the government will never introduce because they'd be too unpopular.
Edited by kambites on Monday 10th January 18:19
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
Tax is going to be raised on gas to move more people to electric just as people are being steered to electric cars.
Yes and it's absolutely not going to happen for the reason I stated. No government (even this one!) would be stupid enough to place a whacking great tax on domestic heating. I'm not saying they shouldn't, such a tax might well make sense. I'm saying they will not.
ETA: Thinking about it there's all sorts of taxes which would make a lot of sense from an environmental point of view which the government will never introduce because they'd be too unpopular.
Edited by kambites on Monday 10th January 18:19
I guess we'll have to agree to differ. I can't see it happening, or at least not being used to raise significant revenue. They could maybe get away with sticking a higher tax threshold at something like 100kwh a day but that would raise a pittance; if they put the threshold any lower than that and they start immediately impacting "normal" households who happen to have electric heating.
IMO the government will very much want to find a way to tax personal transport, not energy consumption.
IMO the government will very much want to find a way to tax personal transport, not energy consumption.
Edited by kambites on Monday 10th January 18:56
DonkeyApple said:
It wouldn't be remotely unpopular though as to start with it would be set at a level where only the scum rich pay and pretty much the whole electorate will leap at the opportunity to stick it to their oppressors while they get to pay no tax because they are poor. It will only be after it is enacted that they will realise that they are the scum rich and will be paying the elevated taxation.
How is it elevated taxation if it merely replaces current ICE generated revenue? Matthen said:
Much easier to ask the car how much is due - I can see the odometer reading of my petrol car on my phone. That means Ford can see it. Govt simply requires this to be registered periodically with the DVLA, and charges you 8.5 p/mile in road usage (about what the fuel duty + vat works out as).
I suspect that modern electric cars know exactly how much power they've drawn as well - no reason this can't be uploaded if preferred (or more likely, as well).
Much easier than trying to tell the difference between an EV and Storage heater via matching learning, or to install another 30 million smart meters.
Where the machine learning can be bought in is with identifying accounts that are pinged by ANPR more often than their mileage readings indicate they should be.
Yup that makes sense. Taxation based on miles of road usage and electrical energy consumed (not power) directly debited from your bank account. All automated without any administration required from the consumer.I suspect that modern electric cars know exactly how much power they've drawn as well - no reason this can't be uploaded if preferred (or more likely, as well).
Much easier than trying to tell the difference between an EV and Storage heater via matching learning, or to install another 30 million smart meters.
Where the machine learning can be bought in is with identifying accounts that are pinged by ANPR more often than their mileage readings indicate they should be.
Dingu said:
DonkeyApple said:
It wouldn't be remotely unpopular though as to start with it would be set at a level where only the scum rich pay and pretty much the whole electorate will leap at the opportunity to stick it to their oppressors while they get to pay no tax because they are poor. It will only be after it is enacted that they will realise that they are the scum rich and will be paying the elevated taxation.
How is it elevated taxation if it merely replaces current ICE generated revenue? 
Matthen said:
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
It need not be any more complex than first x amount per month at zero tax, remainder at 25% and above a certain usage the utility collects 100%.
Then you end up with everyone who has switched to electric heating, as we are being told we have to, paying the higher rate of tax on 80% of their heating bill. It's not going to happen, it would be political suicide!I suspect that modern electric cars know exactly how much power they've drawn as well - no reason this can't be uploaded if preferred (or more likely, as well).
Much easier than trying to tell the difference between an EV and Storage heater via matching learning, or to install another 30 million smart meters.
Where the machine learning can be bought in is with identifying accounts that are pinged by ANPR more often than their mileage readings indicate they should be.
Modern cars know exactly where they are and where they have been driven, its simple to have the car report its path for the last week, and depending when and where you drove it, to bill you. So drive at 3am, on the B976 in the empty Highlands and you'll pay a couple of pence per mile, but use the M25 at 4.30 pm on a friday to get to heathrow, and you'll pay £1 a mile!
By doing this, and having your cars sat nav now display"lowest tax" route as well as "fastest" and "shortest" routes as options, the Gov can actually now control where you drive..........
Dave Hedgehog said:
Max_Torque said:
Your EV already knows exactly where and when you've driven it, so coming up with a monthly bill for that is really not hard...
most cars do, If you have registered for Mercedes Me its logging everything you do back in Germany, and they can disable the car remotely and tell the finance company where to collect it from if you miss paymentsMax_Torque said:
By doing this, and having your cars sat nav now display"lowest tax" route as well as "fastest" and "shortest" routes as options, the Gov can actually now control where you drive..........
They can already to a significant degree. Why do you think many roads have far lower speed limits than are required for safety? When I want to go north on the M3, why does Google maps take me to the junction to the south of my home when the junction north is both faster and shorter by some margin? If I force it the other way it even drops the ETA by a couple of minutes but it'll still point me south next time.
The whole road network is, to some degree at least, designed to push people onto particular roads and keep them off others. Taxation would just be another weapon in that armoury.
Edited by kambites on Monday 10th January 22:15
DonkeyApple said:
Dingu said:
DonkeyApple said:
It wouldn't be remotely unpopular though as to start with it would be set at a level where only the scum rich pay and pretty much the whole electorate will leap at the opportunity to stick it to their oppressors while they get to pay no tax because they are poor. It will only be after it is enacted that they will realise that they are the scum rich and will be paying the elevated taxation.
How is it elevated taxation if it merely replaces current ICE generated revenue? You may be self centred and hate tax but ultimately we all benefit and it has to be raised somewhere. Don’t like it go move somewhere else.
Edited by Dingu on Monday 10th January 22:15
Dingu said:
DonkeyApple said:
Dingu said:
DonkeyApple said:
It wouldn't be remotely unpopular though as to start with it would be set at a level where only the scum rich pay and pretty much the whole electorate will leap at the opportunity to stick it to their oppressors while they get to pay no tax because they are poor. It will only be after it is enacted that they will realise that they are the scum rich and will be paying the elevated taxation.
How is it elevated taxation if it merely replaces current ICE generated revenue? You may be self centred and hate tax but ultimately we all benefit and it has to be raised somewhere. Don’t like it go move somewhere else.
Edited by Dingu on Monday 10th January 22:15
And if people don't think energy taxation is looming and haven't even understood the real driver behind even this week's political flare up over the current 5% VAT levy then there's not a lot that can be done about that as it's been on the cards for well over a decade now and under successive governments.
In the U.K. can you can the masses to do whatever you want via taxation. Want them to all buy diesels? Done. Want them to save for their own old age? Done.
How do you think the U.K. population is going to be incentivised to replace their domestic gas burning devices?
How do you think excessive energy consumption is to be taxed?
Does the U.K. traditionally levy the weight of taxation on the poorest or seek to absolve them from the core structure of taxation?
And just apply a little bit of common sense as to how the baseline electorate feels about higher earners, with homes with driveways and absolutely no social acceptable reason to be in receipt of benefits driving around in EVs that aren't being taxed and even have free money attached to them. We may understand that it is a means to an end to create a market that can be taxed later but you can see the mass animosity on PH. It's not a dislike of the cars but the people driving them.
But let's not forget that road charging is agnostic of drivetrain. That tax can be implemented whenever desired but you have the political issue that it's not really the affluent who are having to plough up and down motorways every day but typically the lowest paid workers. It's not really a white collar lifestyle so road charging has negative social implications in the way that energy consumption doesn't.
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