LPG: Are smug grins allowed watching you queue for fuel?

[OldDuffer]

It's been awful for me. I don't know how I cope? I sail in, past the sheep in massive queues for fuel, and there I am; me, my car and maybe another pulled up at the pump. In and out in the same time as usual.

You see, I did the “crazy” thing, the thing that I was told was a “waste of money” and will “never pay back”, I'm “driving a bomb around”, and oh yes, "gas is unreliable", etc etc Yes, you guessed right, mine's the CNG/LPG pump.

If you remember, the government invited us all to a champagne reception, in my case promising to pay me roughly £1500 a year to drive a vehicle. Most of you said, "Feck your £30,000, I'll thkweam and thkweam and I won't do it.". Ahem, well I did.

The rest of you continue subsidising my motoring with your fuel duty, and it's been going on for over 20 years? Now, apart from buying my own home, no one has ever put so much money in my pocket, for simply sitting on my fat backside.

I tells you, I've had £30K minimum, cash taken straight from the rest of you.

As I watch the rest of you queue to pay near double, the coup de gras came in the last few days.

I will admit my usual 'smug' grin filling with gas is now a full 'smirk'. Please, what's wrong with you all? Surely Shirley, £30K is heap of cash for all but a few of you?

Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 29th September 02:17

Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 29th September 02:22

[OldDuffer]

944 Man said:

It starts on LPG, does it?

When you think that you are clever and being funny, you probably aren't.

I give you that, the first 30-60 secs it will require petrol, whereas my single-point starts on gas. I think I can cope. And I won't claim 'clever' I simply took the money, it's not clever or funny.

Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 29th September 02:31

Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 29th September 02:39

[OldDuffer]

Mr Tidy said:

I'm not quite sure what you are on about - or what you are on when you say "I'll thkweam and thkweam" but you haven't taken £30K from me.

Which car driven is broadly irrelevant. I can't speak for how much you've spent on fuel in your motoring history, only you know that. I suspect it's more than you'd first think.

If we assume 20 years, on average miles it must be £25-30K at least? You paid it though, and if you paid fuel-duty; and you would have done, your bill has been roughly double over running the LPG burning alternatives.

In my case, had it been petrol or diesel, in this period, the bill would exceed £80K. Perhaps it's too tenuous for many to make such a leap, yet, in fuel-duty somebody paid for the tax-breaks on LPG, and if you've been paying tax or using petrol or diesel at £6-7 a gallon over this period, likely it was you.

And which car driven doesn't change the fact, LPG has been 55-60% of the cost of diesel/petrol for quite a while. What I fail to grasp is why it's not grabbed with both hands? I truly have made money.

Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 29th September 03:32

[OldDuffer]

fttm said:

Wasn't me fella , no fuel shortage and currently paying 65 pence per liter for my two gas guzzling V8 daily drivers .

Edited by fttm on Wednesday 29th September 04:10

Somebody gets it@

[OldDuffer]

The bd thing is, and this I hadn't reckoned on... I've been going out to get fuel for others. Jerry-cans aplenty, I passed a dozen-odd filling-stations. Must have burnt the gas equiv. of a gallon of petrol, and still failed.

So much for me saying "Shut the lot down, bring it on..." By virtue of not being at risk of running out searching, this thing caught me in the finish.

I'm sure the Dacia works, mine's differnet again. I love the way I fuel. Running CNG fuelling comes in at 37-47p a litre, and you can’t run cheaper. It works. Unmanned stations, or Homefill. Sadly, no opportunity to wait to get on a pump, [whilst someone gets their week's shop].

anonymous said:

[redacted]

What Twix, what LPG, which shop? There is no shop. It’s not unlike EV, and cheaper.

Not to be confused with LPG, which by tradition were nearly always some shonk-conversion ‘thrown-in’ under a railway-arch. Thousands were done, and unless you were lucky, almost all were awful. Excepting a few factory-fits, and proper conversions, this sort of thing was all too typical…

gazza285 said:

I tried LPG, it made my vehicle slow and unresponsive, the range was ste, and because you had to wring its neck to make any sort of progress, it worked out no cheaper than the diesel it replaced.

The spare wheel in the load space thing annoyed me as well.

LPG burns at a higher temperature as well, which contributed to the head gasket failure, after that I got rid, and good riddance.

If it was down on power this was a home-brew or back-street shonk. A proper system fires in petrol at higher rpm, thus runs gas for 98% of the time, when you need oomph, it's a petrol.

Put any two ‘dim and dimmer’ EVs in relay and against a proper Biogas set-up, you’ll outrun them by a 50 mile margin on range. And then switch to petrol. Obliterate any EV. Greener too - the more harmful greenhouse gas is not CO2, it’s methane. The modern world produces too much methane. We do nothing with it. No one seems to ask why we can’t burn CNG/LNG in our vehicles? Biogas is very green. Why only a small band of corporates use it to fuel their fork-lift /HGV fleet is a whole other debate.

Edited by OldDuffer on Monday 4th October 11:20

[OldDuffer]

I've not done it that way in years, when I used to run LPG, i had a bulk tank. I understand that runs at roughly 49p a litre.

[OldDuffer]

GT911 said:

I have a gas fuelled car, ergo, the solution to climate change must surely therefore be to burn more methane...

In any case the most efficient and lowest emissions solution by far is to burn methane in a very large combined cycle gas turbine to produce electricity.

The OP will of course have no concept of:
> actual efficiency comparisons between large gas turbines and small piston engines.
> the energy savings achieved by regenerative braking.
> the way in which NOx formation is controlled between the two types of combustion.
> how emissions worsens with age for a small piston engine.
> the value of moving these emissions away from population centres.
> how much better regular passenger vehicles are without an engine on board.
> how little maintenance an electric drivetrain requires in comparison.

All par for the course.

1. Save the last two points, I would wholly agree with much of the above. The EV sect, would pretend the EV route is perfect. The methane route certainly isn't, but is a very viable stop-gap.
2. The major component of LPG is not methane.
4. I run methane.
5. I'm not from Yorkshire.
6. I have not used LPG for 12 years.
7. I'm sure EV cars are very good, the entry cost to a methane set-up is £8K with Homefil AND car. I have no idea about he equiv. EV cost, it must be 3-4 times that. Our whole household runs classics, a van, and a dull as dish-water eurobox, all-in for far less than one EV.
8. "how emissions worsens with age for a small piston engine." I have not idea of the effect on the environment to produce an EV battery, minded to it losing range, and the need to repeat this 5-6 years later. It's not roses in the garden either? "how little maintenance an electric drivetrain requires in comparison. " True, I've never had transmissions 'leave town' on anything modern, you might want to change transmission fluid every 60K, but not the power-source. The tanks are pricey, yet are good for 20 years, and then cost £2000 to swap.
9. Range: Is a 5-6 year old EV the better real-world yardstick for range? My current set-up will blow away any two EV for range. I don't think the 750 mile EV is here, and for HGV use, methane is the only current viable alternative to diesel. Waitrose for one use it. Occasionally I use the same filling stations as Waitrose etc, more usually I don't use any.
10. Smugness is perhaps the wrong word choice. It's more that I'm used to real animosity when people hear of my fuel choice, which when nothing stops others, I've never understood. It's more the pleasure of seeing the herd dealing this out, on the receiving end for a while.

The methane route is not perfect. In the near-future I'm not sure EV is either. At this stage from where I sit, both are very viable, if for different reasons, and different applications. EV suits our throw-away society, and is simplest to understand. It will win the argument by virtue of this. Cars will become ever more throw-away. Sadly, like the push for diesel, it'll take 20 years before the world understands the impact.

EV is an easy sell, too easy, and this will its greatest failing. Like mobile-phones, last week's perfectly decent old-tech EVs will never do for 'The secretary to the chairman's car-parking space' thus will be land-fill ever quicker.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 7th October 08:56

[OldDuffer]

GT911 said:

The EV battery degradation/sustainability thing has been discussed to death on half a dozen other threads.

Suffice to say that there is no reason the batteries cannot either be 100% redeployed (in static applications) or 95% recycled indefinitely.

OK, I'm not very well informed, however I wonder if my central point stands? It's not that these cells can't be replaced, it's more that human-nature being what it is, will they be? A car at the end of its battery-life will be say 5-6 years old. Minded to the bill to get it up and going again, unless before sale the 'from new' owner is forced to clear up the mess created, ie dispose/replace the cells in law (highly unlikely) what are we faced with on the used market? The tired cell is in a static application, or more likely melted-down, and the car, a pile of poo.

This EV thing needs a tiara. The second battery (if replaced) carries us to 10-12 years, yet human-nature is very status driven. Normally a 12 year old vehicle can be patched-up for £hundreds, a 12YO EV is not going to get its third battery. If the first owner is forced into putting money-with-mouth, thus keeping things on until the third battery, fine - only that won't happen. Buyers want to throw it away at two-three years, and they will.

15-20 year old cars used to be a common sight, now we making 2-3 cars to get to 20 years. EV will get this to 4-5.

Over real world, and how we really behave, this all comes across in shades of 'Miss World contestant'.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 7th October 10:16

[OldDuffer]

GT911 said:

If you are not well-informed why are you making wildly inaccurate claims on here rather than doing a bit of googling.

This is real world user data for the Tesla batteries.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-...

Marked improvement can be seen with the more recent cell chemistry.

To cover 200,000 miles will take the average UK driver 25 years.

On a single battery pack....

Seems I'm better informed than I thought, ^^^^ that's more or less as I understood it. Yes, you could well see 200,000 from one EV battery, problems comes if you intend to do those 200,000 over 15 years.

Pixelpeep 135 said:

Replacement battery packs (new and OEM) can be purchased for less money than the equivalent IC engine.

That reinforces my point. As a rule, nobody replaces engines, at that point, the cost is prohibitive relative to the value of the car. In the case of an EV that point comes quicker.

[OldDuffer]

GT911 said:

Articles I’ve read have suggested up to half a million miles is feasible and that Tesla are designing for a million miles in the near future.
Nothing about a time limit….

Edited by GT911 on Saturday 9th October 17:05

In which case, we have common ground. And no mention of a time limit. My set-up does have a time limit. The tank will hold fuel with X amount of energy and according to the manufacturer be safe to do this with a time limit. It's 20 years. I can fill it once, and use that energy 20 years later, or fill it umpteen times. As I see fit, it's ability to hold X amount will not change. It's capacity won't change, however after 20 years, it's ability to do that safely does. In that respect it does not differ from a petrol tank. Mine too is a pricey item, hence I've moved it to a fresh vehicle With 4-5 years left, the tank has about 350K on it.

>Nothing about a time limit….<
You're all taking that to mean there is no time limit. I see... I took it to mean, it was convenient not to mention there is one? If you're right, a no time limit 'energy container' of any kind is quite something. If at 7-8 years you've a wish to do another 200K, you can. In which case I'm going to do that rare thing on the internet, and say I was wrong.

Edited by OldDuffer on Monday 11th October 01:43

[OldDuffer]

rscott said:

OldDuffer - can you clarify something please? In the subject and opening posts you extoll the virtues of LPG, but later you say you haven't used it for a long time as your vehicles run on CNG?

Which is it please?

Read it again, I have never extolled the virtues of LPG. I run CNG. CNG is far from perfect, yet from where I sit no worse than EV. In the areas that matter to me, range, vehicle longevity, cost and access in my budget, it obliterates any current EV. In those areas that matter less (to me), it's far worse. All alternative fuels have their faults. Almost all of you ran away with the idea, I'm from Yorkshire, and run LPG. Somethign about how I 'witter on' like LPGs equiv. to a 'blind to all' Elon disciple. I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings, for my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot.

I let it run, explaining the difference gets tiresome, invites lots of stupid/predictable questions from those too idle to use a keyboard. Most still refuse to even accept there is such a thing, and come back with mindless shortgame-objections when they do concede. Elon disciple.
Unlike the EV crowd, I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings. For my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot. Thus it works for me.

My bet is, it won't suit you, and I stress again, 'it won't suit you'. This - my last post.

Edited by OldDuffer on Tuesday 12th October 09:56

[OldDuffer]

My apologies, I was quoted before completing my post:

Read it again, I have never extolled the virtues of LPG. I run CNG. CNG is far from perfect, yet from where I sit no worse than EV. In the areas that matter to me, range, vehicle longevity, cost and access in my budget, it obliterates any current EV. In those areas that matter less (to me), it's far worse. All alternative fuels have their faults. Almost all of you ran away with the idea, I'm from Yorkshire, and run LPG. Somethign about how I 'witter on' like LPGs equiv. to a 'blind to all' Elon disciple. I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings, for my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot.

I let it run, explaining the difference gets tiresome, invites lots of stupid/predictable questions from those too idle to use a keyboard. And because the no-queue point stands, I lumped the two together. It saves answering the "Never heard of it"... Most still refuse to even accept there is such a thing, and come back with mindless shortgame-objections when they do concede.
Unlike the EV crowd, I do not gloss over my solution's shortcomings. For my use, and I stress again 'for my use' it beats the lot. Thus it works for me.

My bet is, it won't suit you, and I stress again, 'it won't suit you'. This - my last post.

Edited by OldDuffer on Tuesday 12th October 10:17