EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Absolutely. Case in point being interest rates. The GBP needs to hold a fair parity to the USD so whatever the FRD does to their domestic interest rate the BoE is ultimately obliged to map even if our domestic inflation can be dealt with via other, more precise means (debt flow control or as seen quite literally this week, just dropping energy prices).
Then there's the oil fiasco. Why has the price of U.K. petrol risen over 10p/litre in the last few weeks? The price of oil hasn't increased and we refine onshore and that cost hasn't changed. The answer is that the 6 U.K. refineries price on global markets and if the U.K. wishes to have that product rather than for it to be exported for a higher price then we end up having to match that price. So, a random event elsewhere on the planet can for no true reason cause everyone in the U.K. to be paying more for fuel and more for goods transported by that fuel.
Even Nat Gas isn't immune. We have local supplies but should a local neighbour that doesn't usually buy U.K. Gas or even TTF suddenly get cut off from their supplies to the East then their sudden demand in our local market smashes the price up. In the most recent case over ten fold in a matter of months.
Things like renewables aren't the answer to everything and raise their own questions but the reality is that the U.K. is one of the few countries on the planet that is positioned to the East of a major sea, at the point where the trade winds are most constant and the island has a very shallow geology offshore in large areas which means the U.K. has the genuine capacity to be a near constant producer of excess wind energy. We also have an absolutely massive potential energy reserve in terms of tidal power which cannot yet be efficiently tapped but is likely to be a function of time. And again, tidal power needs constant wind and shallow seas as those conditions produce the most energy.
When it comes to the renewable aspect the U.K. shouldn't be targeting self sufficiency. Self sufficiency should simply be the byproduct of targeting being a net exporter of energy. Germany is not likely to ever be wholly self sufficient. France's nuclear backbone will be gone in 40 years and the whole of mainland Europe has the toxic oil and usd economic shock to contend with after the horror of net zero forcing them to deindustrialise as the U.K. did thirty to forty years ago.
Get batteries on wheels into as many driveways as possible is a great target to help slam oil reliance. If we leave a modest percentage of cars as ICE then who cares. It would arguably be a good thing. If I had my way I'd bin all the EV subsidies and just change the lending regulation so that ICe had a very low cap meaning anyone wanting much more than a £15/20k car would have to buy electric to get the lending. And post 2035 I'd allow the smallest and cheapest ICe to remain on sale as their emissions would be of no relevance but it ensures worker mobility, spreads risk and stops a lot of people s
ting their pants every day from now to 2035.
And then there's V2G. Can't wait for more car makers to embrace that as it sounds like a no-brainer to me.Then there's the oil fiasco. Why has the price of U.K. petrol risen over 10p/litre in the last few weeks? The price of oil hasn't increased and we refine onshore and that cost hasn't changed. The answer is that the 6 U.K. refineries price on global markets and if the U.K. wishes to have that product rather than for it to be exported for a higher price then we end up having to match that price. So, a random event elsewhere on the planet can for no true reason cause everyone in the U.K. to be paying more for fuel and more for goods transported by that fuel.
Even Nat Gas isn't immune. We have local supplies but should a local neighbour that doesn't usually buy U.K. Gas or even TTF suddenly get cut off from their supplies to the East then their sudden demand in our local market smashes the price up. In the most recent case over ten fold in a matter of months.
Things like renewables aren't the answer to everything and raise their own questions but the reality is that the U.K. is one of the few countries on the planet that is positioned to the East of a major sea, at the point where the trade winds are most constant and the island has a very shallow geology offshore in large areas which means the U.K. has the genuine capacity to be a near constant producer of excess wind energy. We also have an absolutely massive potential energy reserve in terms of tidal power which cannot yet be efficiently tapped but is likely to be a function of time. And again, tidal power needs constant wind and shallow seas as those conditions produce the most energy.
When it comes to the renewable aspect the U.K. shouldn't be targeting self sufficiency. Self sufficiency should simply be the byproduct of targeting being a net exporter of energy. Germany is not likely to ever be wholly self sufficient. France's nuclear backbone will be gone in 40 years and the whole of mainland Europe has the toxic oil and usd economic shock to contend with after the horror of net zero forcing them to deindustrialise as the U.K. did thirty to forty years ago.
Get batteries on wheels into as many driveways as possible is a great target to help slam oil reliance. If we leave a modest percentage of cars as ICE then who cares. It would arguably be a good thing. If I had my way I'd bin all the EV subsidies and just change the lending regulation so that ICe had a very low cap meaning anyone wanting much more than a £15/20k car would have to buy electric to get the lending. And post 2035 I'd allow the smallest and cheapest ICe to remain on sale as their emissions would be of no relevance but it ensures worker mobility, spreads risk and stops a lot of people s
ting their pants every day from now to 2035. Hell, Octopus could even help with buying EV cars if they wanted to.
https://octopus.energy/power-pack/
A million 50Kwh EVs = 50Gwh capacity
Pistonheadsdicoverer said:
And then there's V2G. Can't wait for more car makers to embrace that as it sounds like a no-brainer to me.
Hell, Octopus could even help with buying EV cars if they wanted to.
https://octopus.energy/power-pack/
A million 50Kwh EVs = 50Gwh capacity
My general view re V2G is the G can fHell, Octopus could even help with buying EV cars if they wanted to.
https://octopus.energy/power-pack/
A million 50Kwh EVs = 50Gwh capacity
k itself of it wants to solve its storage cost problem by degrading a battery on my driveway. 
V2H is more interesting
There is actually a big issue with V2G which is that the average person will genuinely believe that The Man is stealing their electrons. And of course, given the nature of utility companies that will actually be the case. Lord knows why so many people have convinced themselves that Octupis is their friend just because it gives them a little sniff on the action.
There is also the issue that few batteries in driveways are owned by the householder. They're owned by the lender and the lender has priced their financing cost around the percie ed value and state of their battery when the leaseholder hands it back. If you were the owner of that battery then wouldn't you want any of the action being offered by a utility firm to save them from having to buy their own batteries?
FiF said:
DonkeyApple said:
When it comes to the renewable aspect the U.K. shouldn't be targeting self sufficiency. Self sufficiency should simply be the byproduct of targeting being a net exporter of energy.
Abso-bloody-lutely. Bang on.https://gridwatch.co.uk/demand/percent
If we depend on building more wind/solar we will always be dependent on imports when wind drops. Not good for energy security.
As for vehicle to grid. It would help of course. But a million 50kWh cars? I thought cars were best not charged to 100% except for long journeys. Or fully dischaged in case the owner needs to use them. So those million vehicles connected to the grid equals 1 hour UK demand.
irc said:
FiF said:
DonkeyApple said:
When it comes to the renewable aspect the U.K. shouldn't be targeting self sufficiency. Self sufficiency should simply be the byproduct of targeting being a net exporter of energy.
Abso-bloody-lutely. Bang on.https://gridwatch.co.uk/demand/percent
If we depend on building more wind/solar we will always be dependent on imports when wind drops. Not good for energy security.
As for vehicle to grid. It would help of course. But a million 50kWh cars? I thought cars were best not charged to 100% except for long journeys. Or fully dischaged in case the owner needs to use them. So those million vehicles connected to the grid equals 1 hour UK demand.
The value of V2H is more about smoothing peaks and troughs as opposed to turning off all the power generation and sucking everyone's EVs to empty. It's about getting a better price stability which means higher profits.
DonkeyApple said:
irc said:
FiF said:
DonkeyApple said:
When it comes to the renewable aspect the U.K. shouldn't be targeting self sufficiency. Self sufficiency should simply be the byproduct of targeting being a net exporter of energy.
Abso-bloody-lutely. Bang on.https://gridwatch.co.uk/demand/percent
If we depend on building more wind/solar we will always be dependent on imports when wind drops. Not good for energy security.
As for vehicle to grid. It would help of course. But a million 50kWh cars? I thought cars were best not charged to 100% except for long journeys. Or fully dischaged in case the owner needs to use them. So those million vehicles connected to the grid equals 1 hour UK demand.
The value of V2H is more about smoothing peaks and troughs as opposed to turning off all the power generation and sucking everyone's EVs to empty. It's about getting a better price stability which means higher profits.
It's not a good deal for the EV (or home battery) owner at all.
Fastdruid said:
Higher profits for the energy companies while almost certainly not feeding back down to the consumer. All while underpaying the EV owner and saving a fortune on capital expenditure.
It's not a good deal for the EV (or home battery) owner at all.
Of course not. But that doesn't matter. What matters is whether it is more or less sIt's not a good deal for the EV (or home battery) owner at all.
t than the alternative. And if we want to know that answer then all we need to is have a little looksie over at Germany. Integrating car to home and switching between using the car and the Grid gives an interesting arbitrage opportunity. Add in thermal energy stores whether hot water tanks or thermal batteries and even a small amount of solar for summer hot water use and you start to get an interesting outlook.
I suspect that over the next decade we will also start to see things like this being reflected in the property market leading to homes that have no such capability being discounted over those that do, which offers a benefit to the younger and less well off, while those wanting roof space, garage and driveway space will be having to pay a premium.
DonkeyApple said:
That's why you target an excess which is constantly exported. You limit the number of occasions when importing is needed but it's just a callback on a percentage of what was exported and that's only when nat gas can't cover.
When wind is plentiful in the UK it is usually windy elsewhere. So prices will be low or negative when we export. When wind drops prices go up and will be high when we import.We need more nuclear.
irc said:
DonkeyApple said:
That's why you target an excess which is constantly exported. You limit the number of occasions when importing is needed but it's just a callback on a percentage of what was exported and that's only when nat gas can't cover.
When wind is plentiful in the UK it is usually windy elsewhere. So prices will be low or negative when we export. When wind drops prices go up and will be high when we import.We need more nuclear.
anyway, this is drifting into other threads about energy generation and the transition to electrification.
irc said:
When wind is plentiful in the UK it is usually windy elsewhere. So prices will be low or negative when we export. When wind drops prices go up and will be high when we import.
We need more nuclear.
That's not correct. You need to consider just how far reaching an energy trade can be. Just because the physical export pipe is say to France that doesn't mean France is your actual client. Your client can be say Turkey if there is an income ring path, it's just the the electron you send isn't the one they receive. We need more nuclear.
So if you consider the weather patterns of the European Peninsula then you can see clearly, in terms of wind, that an island off the West coast of that landmass will be generating more constantly and predictably than a landlocked nation to the eastern edge.
You can have solar supply from North Africa. The current projects haven't worked out well but that doesn't mean future ones won't but at this point you have the energy security premium. Quality, firm, British electrons will be honest, true and reliable so far more valuable than shonky, unreliable, African ones.
Nuclear should be part of the equation but you probably want another nation, one to the east, to be paying and housing it. It's also rather expensive and we have gas as our fallback and it's already operational. I can't see nuclear ever having traction in the U.K. and each year that passes sees more of the political base that would support it being moved into homes and stopping voting.
The U.K. has a prime advantage for wind generation and eventually tidal. You need to bet in the short odds. Things like nuclear are serious long odds and more for the desperate. The key is to back what will win most easily and thatbis excess wind, not self sufficiency but solid excess where the amount generated means that even on the slowest days there is still easy self sufficiency with a gas fallback. And if you get next to nothing at times for the export what has to be remembered is that that keeps your nearest trade partners dependent on your Grace and favour.
FiF said:
The other issue before the question of cheap oil 'running out' is that it makes absolute sense to reduce exposure to relying in part on actors who will always act in their own interests which are often very opposed to our own sometimes malevolently so.
It does although it would be better if most of the solar, wind and car battery tech wasn't coming from a dictatorship which mostly does what you describe.confused_buyer said:
It does although it would be better if most of the solar, wind and car battery tech wasn't coming from a dictatorship which mostly does what you describe.
It's a big problem but no one in the West saw any of this stuff coming. No warnings about EVs or renewable energy. Just, BAM!! completely out of the blue we all wake up one day and there are laws and legislation that incentivise all this stuff and those Chinese chappies are already doing it. If someone had just seen this coming, all we needed was 20-30 years notice. :Dsconfused_buyer said:
It does although it would be better if most of the solar, wind and car battery tech wasn't coming from a dictatorship which mostly does what you describe.
It would, though the risk of someone declining to sell us wind turbines is less immediate than someone cutting off the oil or gas. The risk of them being able to do nasty things remotely to technology we've bought is there, though I would be amazed if the security services haven't been busy pulling Chinese software apart. Electronic warfare by over-the-air update is a possibility.irc said:
A bit to go there. Currently wind is supplying 3% of power and we are importing around 20%.
Why is cherrypicking the contribution from wind always the standard response to the renewables question?By its very nature it’s a highly variable source of energy, it should really be very simple to understand then that a snapshot is a fairly useless bit of information.
Or do you actually believe that the average contribution from wind is only 3%?
Last year wind contributed nearly 100 TWh to the total electricity demand of around 300TWh.
Now, given that 1 million UK EVs equates to less than 1% average load on the grid , 30 million EVs could be charged from 100 TWh…
Right now we actually have sufficient wind infrastructure to power the entire UK fleet of passenger cars, if they were all EV and all of wind was dedicated to charging.
Jaw dropping I know.
Clearly that’s a hypothetical situation, but something tells me the usual assumption is that EVs require far more energy than they actually do.
Grasping just how energy efficient these cars are and how little extra demand they place on the grid is seemingly in the too hard basket for some.
Harder still if its one of the inconvenient truths for an entrenched anti-EV view.
DonkeyApple said:
FiF said:
The other issue before the question of cheap oil 'running out' is that it makes absolute sense to reduce exposure to relying in part on actors who will always act in their own interests which are often very opposed to our own sometimes malevolently so.
Absolutely. Case in point being interest rates. The GBP needs to hold a fair parity to the USD so whatever the FRD does to their domestic interest rate the BoE is ultimately obliged to map even if our domestic inflation can be dealt with via other, more precise means (debt flow control or as seen quite literally this week, just dropping energy prices). Then there's the oil fiasco. Why has the price of U.K. petrol risen over 10p/litre in the last few weeks? The price of oil hasn't increased and we refine onshore and that cost hasn't changed. The answer is that the 6 U.K. refineries price on global markets and if the U.K. wishes to have that product rather than for it to be exported for a higher price then we end up having to match that price. So, a random event elsewhere on the planet can for no true reason cause everyone in the U.K. to be paying more for fuel and more for goods transported by that fuel.
Even Nat Gas isn't immune. We have local supplies but should a local neighbour that doesn't usually buy U.K. Gas or even TTF suddenly get cut off from their supplies to the East then their sudden demand in our local market smashes the price up. In the most recent case over ten fold in a matter of months.
Things like renewables aren't the answer to everything and raise their own questions but the reality is that the U.K. is one of the few countries on the planet that is positioned to the East of a major sea, at the point where the trade winds are most constant and the island has a very shallow geology offshore in large areas which means the U.K. has the genuine capacity to be a near constant producer of excess wind energy. We also have an absolutely massive potential energy reserve in terms of tidal power which cannot yet be efficiently tapped but is likely to be a function of time. And again, tidal power needs constant wind and shallow seas as those conditions produce the most energy.
When it comes to the renewable aspect the U.K. shouldn't be targeting self sufficiency. Self sufficiency should simply be the byproduct of targeting being a net exporter of energy. Germany is not likely to ever be wholly self sufficient. France's nuclear backbone will be gone in 40 years and the whole of mainland Europe has the toxic oil and usd economic shock to contend with after the horror of net zero forcing them to deindustrialise as the U.K. did thirty to forty years ago.
Get batteries on wheels into as many driveways as possible is a great target to help slam oil reliance. If we leave a modest percentage of cars as ICE then who cares. It would arguably be a good thing. If I had my way I'd bin all the EV subsidies and just change the lending regulation so that ICe had a very low cap meaning anyone wanting much more than a £15/20k car would have to buy electric to get the lending. And post 2035 I'd allow the smallest and cheapest ICe to remain on sale as their emissions would be of no relevance but it ensures worker mobility, spreads risk and stops a lot of people s
ting their pants every day from now to 2035. irc said:
DonkeyApple said:
That's why you target an excess which is constantly exported. You limit the number of occasions when importing is needed but it's just a callback on a percentage of what was exported and that's only when nat gas can't cover.
When wind is plentiful in the UK it is usually windy elsewhere. So prices will be low or negative when we export. When wind drops prices go up and will be high when we import.We need more nuclear.
moktabe said:
What I fail to understand is the need for people to justify their choice of car whether it be ICE or EV.
Why worry if folk don't like it it? Does it really matter?
....
Much easier just to buy whatever we want to buy, enjoy driving it and not giving two hoots about whatever anyone thinks about it.
The assertiveness over purchase choice in this thread is because the government is mandating it (for new ones anyway). That always makes us angry.Why worry if folk don't like it it? Does it really matter?
....
Much easier just to buy whatever we want to buy, enjoy driving it and not giving two hoots about whatever anyone thinks about it.
Just imagine what would happen if the government said from 2035 you can't buy a new dog, you must buy a cat instead if you want a pet. Dog owners would be all over threads like this justifying why a dog is much better than a cat.
Here’s the first few posts in this thread. Has anything changed?
Leicesterdave said:
If you're thinking of trading in your EV anytime soon don't bother!
2 VW dealers this am wouldn't touch my Cupra Born. I have never in 23 years had a dealer refuse to take my car in part exchange, never!
Dealers simply don't want EVs and I have to admit that of course it's scaring me as I need to sell but the loss is far too great to bear.
I hope the situation improves over the next 6 months or so....
2 VW dealers this am wouldn't touch my Cupra Born. I have never in 23 years had a dealer refuse to take my car in part exchange, never!
Dealers simply don't want EVs and I have to admit that of course it's scaring me as I need to sell but the loss is far too great to bear.
I hope the situation improves over the next 6 months or so....
Edited by Leicesterdave on Wednesday 1st February 11:23
Belle427 said:
Can't see it getting any better soon.
Leicesterdave said:
The Road Crew said:
Wouldn't take it at any price?
Or wouldn't give the price you wanted?
Seemingly any price. Sales manager says they're not buying EVs at all.Or wouldn't give the price you wanted?
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