How the hell do people afford cars these days?
Discussion
Wagonwheel555 said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
But you're talking about running a car between the ages of 4 years and 9 years. A car that would have been, what, £20k-£25k from a dealer at 4 years old. What will WBAC give you for it now? You may have avoided repair bills but you have done that by buying a relatively young used car. You will accordingly have taken a hit in depreciation instead. Try running it for another 5 years and see if it is still trouble free.
I think we were fortunate with the used car market going up, we bought for £18k from a BMW as AUC with only 14k on the clock, was an ex showroom car so private sale now is about £14-£15k based on the mileage and therefore has cost us very little over 4 years of ownership. WBAC is showing £12750 so even at that value, its still only around £110pm depreciation.Wagonwheel555 said:
Fair point but I disagree about the garage thing, people make out used cars spend half their life in a garage which with modern cars, is really not the case.
Many brand new cars have issues, plenty of people have nothing but problems with them.
Many used cars have no issues, our 335D is 9 years old, we have owned it 4 years and not been into a garage once other than its MOT and servicing.
New cars have far less issues on average than 3+ year old used cars. And if new cars do go wrong those issues get fixed under warranty for free which isn't always the case with used cars obviously unless you buy approved.Many brand new cars have issues, plenty of people have nothing but problems with them.
Many used cars have no issues, our 335D is 9 years old, we have owned it 4 years and not been into a garage once other than its MOT and servicing.
Funnily enough in my personal experience used BMW's are the worst of the lot. We've had 3 over the years adding up to a total ownership term of around 8 years , and all of them had significant and expensive to resolve issues at < 5 years old. Fortunately all were AUC bought so didn't cost me a penny, just a lot of hassle.
E46 330i - 3 years old, issues with power loss and dropping into limp home mode after fueling. Electrical gremlin which required a new engine harness to eventually resolve after multiple visits to the dealer.
E60 530D - 4 years old. Needed a new gearbox after it chewed itself up due to an ATF leak.
F10 530i - 3 years old. Misfire requiring replacement of coil packs, injectors and a ruined catalytic converter due to overfueling.
We've had plenty of new cars over the years, both private and company, and never had any problems with them.
What in god's name are people buying if they think a car ouside warranty is a ticking time bomb or a car over 10 years old WILL throw up large bills? There are loads of cars around at 5-10+ years that are perfectly reliable. Smaller, simpler cars all the more so.
The UK average mileage is about 7.5k a year so at 10 years old the average car will have 75k miles. Hardly knackered mechanically and in reality corrosion isn't likely to be much of an issue at that age/mileage. The average lifespan of a car is about 15 years old so your 10 year old car will have 3-5 years of useable life left in it. Average length of ownership is about 4 years so that would suggest you can expect it to survive until many people will be looking to offload.
If safety is your argument then the statistics suggest road casualty KSI figures have been fairly flat from about 2010 onward so unless you are looking at something appreciably older than 12-15 years you are gaining a minor advantage.
This unreliability in 'older' cars just does not happen - at least on any scale. The suggestion that older cars are unreliable and can throw up big bills is just a variation on the man-math argument for getting the latest shiny (or something larger/with a German badge). I suspect what people need differs hugely from what people want and 'affordable' means of getting into newer cars facilitates this.
As always the cheapest way to own a car is to keep it for a long time - ideally to just before it expires.
The UK average mileage is about 7.5k a year so at 10 years old the average car will have 75k miles. Hardly knackered mechanically and in reality corrosion isn't likely to be much of an issue at that age/mileage. The average lifespan of a car is about 15 years old so your 10 year old car will have 3-5 years of useable life left in it. Average length of ownership is about 4 years so that would suggest you can expect it to survive until many people will be looking to offload.
If safety is your argument then the statistics suggest road casualty KSI figures have been fairly flat from about 2010 onward so unless you are looking at something appreciably older than 12-15 years you are gaining a minor advantage.
This unreliability in 'older' cars just does not happen - at least on any scale. The suggestion that older cars are unreliable and can throw up big bills is just a variation on the man-math argument for getting the latest shiny (or something larger/with a German badge). I suspect what people need differs hugely from what people want and 'affordable' means of getting into newer cars facilitates this.
As always the cheapest way to own a car is to keep it for a long time - ideally to just before it expires.
Not that anyone thinking of leasing a base model Citroën will care, but the cost is enough to cover owning far more special cars.
My McLaren has not depreciated at all in the time I owned it. My R8 appreciated. My Range Rover has depreciated about £8,000 in four years, my brand new SL63 dropped £3k in two years and brand new 911 GTS dropped by the same.
None of them have had massive repair bills or had to be off the road.
I understand the peace of mind that will come with leasing, but not those arguing that it makes financial sense relative to buying something four years old.
My McLaren has not depreciated at all in the time I owned it. My R8 appreciated. My Range Rover has depreciated about £8,000 in four years, my brand new SL63 dropped £3k in two years and brand new 911 GTS dropped by the same.
None of them have had massive repair bills or had to be off the road.
I understand the peace of mind that will come with leasing, but not those arguing that it makes financial sense relative to buying something four years old.
Tonberry said:
ARHarh said:
Why do you all assume an old car will throw massive bills?
I have always bought cars at about 8 to 12 years old, since my first car in 1980. Many have well exceeded 150k miles by the time I let them go. Ok i fix them myself but have rarely had bills of more than a couple of hundred quid, if i had to pay labour that would would probably double the cost. Yes there is a risk, but if you keep an eye on things and service properly the chances of the cost of repair being more than cost of replacement, is minimal.
I can see some not liking the worry your car might break down but that can even happen on new cars, it why breakdown services exist.
Depends on the car.I have always bought cars at about 8 to 12 years old, since my first car in 1980. Many have well exceeded 150k miles by the time I let them go. Ok i fix them myself but have rarely had bills of more than a couple of hundred quid, if i had to pay labour that would would probably double the cost. Yes there is a risk, but if you keep an eye on things and service properly the chances of the cost of repair being more than cost of replacement, is minimal.
I can see some not liking the worry your car might break down but that can even happen on new cars, it why breakdown services exist.
Large SUVs will start throwing big bills at that age as will large German saloons.
To be fair, the newer stuff is getting better. So I'd be slightly less concerned about a 2014 X5 than I would have been about a 2007 X5 when it was 10 years old.
Engines, transmissions, drive shafts, transfer cases, suspension components, DPFs, EGRs, coolant leaks, oil leaks(!), stretched timing chains, electrics....I could go on.
Many of these cars have specific faults which you'd only know about with research.
Most people still don't know that crankshafts commonly snap on 3.0 diesel Land Rovers....
I wonder if the divergent views on reliability here are caused by some people buying older "sensible" cars and some older "interesting" cars. It may well be that spending £8k on a 10 year old cooking-spec Golf is indeed the way to go for affordable, reliable motoring. But Jesus Christ, as a car enthusiast I'd find that pretty soul-destroying.
Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
I wonder if the divergent views on reliability here are caused by some people buying older "sensible" cars and some older "interesting" cars. It may well be that spending £8k on a 10 year old cooking-spec Golf is indeed the way to go for affordable, reliable motoring. But Jesus Christ, as a car enthusiast I'd find that pretty soul-destroying.
Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Probably a bit less, I think I could sell it for about £5,000 more than I paid for it.Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Of course, it does come with some risk, but in quite a few years of buying fun cars I’ve never had a huge bill.
I forgot to mention my Yaris. Not cheap two years ago at £34,000, but it looks as though it’s worth similar to that now.
This run of apparently good luck and cheap motoring may be about to come to an abrupt halt as I’ve stepped up in cost for a convertible, buying at the worst time of year, but we’ll see.
As I mentioned earlier I have always bought older cars and never had big bills. They have not been boring hatchback shopping cars either, a 12 years old xjs owned for 4 years cost me some shocks on the rear and a bracket for the expansion bottle, an XKR convertible cost me nothing in parts over 3 years, the latest Lexus RX400h has had a few bits replaced but nothing major, a rad, some bottom ball joints, the handbrake cables and the reversing camera (which was replaced with an ebay special for £12), the rx has gone from 9 years old to 17 years old in my hands and covered 75k miles, it is now just over 160k. It will be px'ed this week. Obviously these cars have required servicing including brakes tyres etc, but then all cars need them even if the are nearly new. The biggest expense on most of the cars is cambelt replacement, but even if you pay someone to do them it will still not be that expensive. There have been many more but the most boring was when bought my first house and ran old metros for a couple of years, followed by an old cavalier. Even the metros caused few issues.
It would be easy to put a 10 year old car into a main dealer and end up with a massive bill, but you would be daft to do that. It would also be easy to be very fussy and pay someone fix every little issue, in which case a 10 year old car is not for you.
It would be easy to put a 10 year old car into a main dealer and end up with a massive bill, but you would be daft to do that. It would also be easy to be very fussy and pay someone fix every little issue, in which case a 10 year old car is not for you.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
It may well be that spending £8k on a 10 year old cooking-spec Golf is indeed the way to go for affordable, reliable motoring. But Jesus Christ, as a car enthusiast I'd find that pretty soul-destroying.
If you're in Scotland that may well be true, but if you drove where okgo does I don't think you'd be nearly as bothered.Ken_Code said:
cj2013 said:
Which is fine, if you have £19k lying around - at which point you're in the wrong thread.
If people are leasing them because they can’t afford to buy it outright then it makes even less sense.I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
James_33 said:
Why does it make even less sense? Realistically speaking how many average Joe's have 19k laying about? And even more so on cars of higher value, sure some people will but for the majority they haven't.
I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
The issue is that while you may have three months income in an easy-access account and / or very good redundancy insurance many who do what you have don’t, and will set lease payments that leave them with very little spare each month.I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
Advising people that this is risky may aggravate you, but may also make someone else think twice about why they are entering into a multi-year commitment that could turn into a disaster if they lose their job.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
Wagonwheel555 said:
Many used cars have no issues, our 335D is 9 years old, we have owned it 4 years and not been into a garage once other than its MOT and servicing.
But you're talking about running a car between the ages of 4 years and 9 years. A car that would have been, what, £20k-£25k from a dealer at 4 years old. What will WBAC give you for it now? You may have avoided repair bills but you have done that by buying a relatively young used car. You will accordingly have taken a hit in depreciation instead. Try running it for another 5 years and see if it is still trouble free. Ken_Code said:
James_33 said:
Why does it make even less sense? Realistically speaking how many average Joe's have 19k laying about? And even more so on cars of higher value, sure some people will but for the majority they haven't.
I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
The issue is that while you may have three months income in an easy-access account and / or very good redundancy insurance many who do what you have don’t, and will set lease payments that leave them with very little spare each month.I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
Advising people that this is risky may aggravate you, but may also make someone else think twice about why they are entering into a multi-year commitment that could turn into a disaster if they lose their job.
I think everyone should think twice about making a substantial commitment to something regardless of what that is, I just don't understand why people concern themselves over how someone buys/rents a car, I make no assumptions on what would happen if whoever lost their job would be able to afford it anymore, and if they did then surely that's for them to deal with and not others?
James_33 said:
It doesn't aggrevate me at all, life is full of risks as we all know, who's to say taking on a multi year commitment of a mortgage for the next 25 years or so isn't all going to fall flat on its face if one or both of you end up out of a job either through redundancy/medically/breakup/divorce and so on.
I think everyone should think twice about making a substantial commitment to something regardless of what that is, I just don't understand why people concern themselves over how someone buys/rents a car, I make no assumptions on what would happen if whoever lost their job would be able to afford it anymore, and if they did then surely that's for them to deal with and not others?
It’s a discussion forum, the entire point of it is to discuss things like this.I think everyone should think twice about making a substantial commitment to something regardless of what that is, I just don't understand why people concern themselves over how someone buys/rents a car, I make no assumptions on what would happen if whoever lost their job would be able to afford it anymore, and if they did then surely that's for them to deal with and not others?
James_33 said:
I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
Personally I have no concern with whatever means someone chooses to get a car (as long as it is legal). I would just prefer they didn't try to justify it by trotting out the tired old trope of 'older' cars being unreliable. Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
biggbn said:
What does WBAC price have to do with anything? Is that the metric you're gonna use for used value?
It's the easiest and most accurate way to measure what a car is worth worth should you need to dispose of it quickly and with reduced hassle? MightyBadger said:
Using WBAC as vehicle evaluations 
What would you use out of interest? What a car is advertised for on Autotrader only tells you what people are asking for, not what it's actually worth. It could sit there for months + eventually sell for considerably less than the advertised price?
Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 8th May 12:19
Ken_Code said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
I wonder if the divergent views on reliability here are caused by some people buying older "sensible" cars and some older "interesting" cars. It may well be that spending £8k on a 10 year old cooking-spec Golf is indeed the way to go for affordable, reliable motoring. But Jesus Christ, as a car enthusiast I'd find that pretty soul-destroying.
Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Probably a bit less, I think I could sell it for about £5,000 more than I paid for it.Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Of course, it does come with some risk, but in quite a few years of buying fun cars I’ve never had a huge bill.
I forgot to mention my Yaris. Not cheap two years ago at £34,000, but it looks as though it’s worth similar to that now.
This run of apparently good luck and cheap motoring may be about to come to an abrupt halt as I’ve stepped up in cost for a convertible, buying at the worst time of year, but we’ll see.
Could have owned a Mclaren F1 for 30 years and be up millions.
Must do better.
SWoll said:
biggbn said:
What does WBAC price have to do with anything? Is that the metric you're gonna use for used value?
It's the easiest and most accurate way to measure what a car is worth worth should you need to dispose of it quickly and with reduced hassle? Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff