EVs... no one wants them!

[samoht]

Maracus said:

NDA said:

TheBinarySheep said:

OVO know exactly how many KW's go into my EV, no matter whether I use my EV charger, or a granny charger. The car tells them how many KW's go into the car while charging.

Apologies if this has already been said, I'm catching up with comments.

Your car communicates with Ovo?

As does an EV with Octopus Intelligent.

Yeah, there are absolutely ways of charging (some) EVs in communication with a central service, and these services could fairly easily charge tax on electricity consumed by EVs.

However, you choose to do this because you get a discount. If you were being charged 30-40p per kWh in "fuel duty" when charging in this way, people would soon turn it off and go back to 'dumb' charging.

Fundamentally there's quite a difference between a mechanism for tracking consumption which people are incentivised to opt in to, vs one which has to apply to every EV and every charger in order to impose a tax that no-one can avoid.

[samoht]

DriveSnowdonia said:

D4rez said:

DriveSnowdonia said:

More bad news for the ZEV mandate.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/11/29/zev-mandate...

Looks totally unworkable, so expect a rollback to be imminent.

lol literally source = some crackpot. Thanks for sharing a highly speculative rant from some non-lawyer

All you can ever do is to criticise the source isn't it? Hardly ever do you address the data, the evidence, the nuances or the substance of the argument.

The UK government currently successfully applies a fleet CO2 limit on carmakers selling cars in the UK (including "foreign" ones).

The onus is therefore on you to explain why the new fleet rules (on proportion of sales which must be EVs) are somehow unenforceable, when the current fleet rules clearly are working fine. Watt's the difference?

[plfrench]

samoht said:

Yeah, there are absolutely ways of charging (some) EVs in communication with a central service, and these services could fairly easily charge tax on electricity consumed by EVs.

However, you choose to do this because you get a discount. If you were being charged 30-40p per kWh in "fuel duty" when charging in this way, people would soon turn it off and go back to 'dumb' charging.

Fundamentally there's quite a difference between a mechanism for tracking consumption which people are incentivised to opt in to, vs one which has to apply to every EV and every charger in order to impose a tax that no-one can avoid.

Haven't got time to Google it right now, as have a meeting starting in 3mins, but how much revenue are we looking to plug worse case, i.e. if we needed to replace all car petrol / Diesel fuel tax raised annually?

[samoht]

plfrench said:

Haven't got time to Google it right now, as have a meeting starting in 3mins, but how much revenue are we looking to plug worse case, i.e. if we needed to replace all car petrol / Diesel fuel tax raised annually?

If you look at it per mile:

A decently economical car might average 45 mpg
A gallon is about 4.5 litres, so that's about 10 miles per litre of petrol
Tax is 52.5p per litre plus 20% of the total, which comes out at 85p per litre tax if sold at £1.60
So that's 85p tax paid to drive 10 miles, or 8.5 pence per mile.

A decently economical EV might average 3.5 miles per kWh
So 8.5 p/mile x 3.5 miles/kWh = just under 30 p per kWh tax to pay.


That's effectively a 100% tax rate, as current standard rates are about 30p/kWh. Off peak is generally under 10p/kWh, so would be a big difference to that.

That would be to collect approximately the same amount of tax per mile driven from EVs from their fuel as the govt currently do with petrol and diesel cars.

[520TORQUES]

samoht said:

If you look at it per mile:

A decently economical car might average 45 mpg
A gallon is about 4.5 litres, so that's about 10 miles per litre of petrol
Tax is 52.5p per litre plus 20% of the total, which comes out at 85p per litre tax if sold at £1.60
So that's 85p tax paid to drive 10 miles, or 8.5 pence per mile.

A decently economical EV might average 3.5 miles per kWh
So 8.5 p/mile x 3.5 miles/kWh = just under 30 p per kWh tax to pay.


That's effectively a 100% tax rate, as current standard rates are about 30p/kWh. Off peak is generally under 10p/kWh, so would be a big difference to that.

That would be to collect approximately the same amount of tax per mile driven from EVs from their fuel as the govt currently do with petrol and diesel cars.

UK has the highest vehicle fuel tax in the OECD, which means the government tax take structure during the EV transition is a bit of a problem.

[anonymous-user]

DriveSnowdonia said:

All you can ever do is to criticise the source isn't it? Hardly ever do you address the data, the evidence, the nuances or the substance of the argument.

So far, from what I have seen, your posts seem to sit at about level 1 or 2 on the chart:



I wonder why?

Perhaps you can answer yourself whether this means you are likely to have a strong or a weak argument?

DriveSnowdonia said:

Hell, there's even a market there for red trousers if you look closely enough.

I think you could have found the answer already.

[Mikehig]

plfrench said:

Haven't got time to Google it right now, as have a meeting starting in 3mins, but how much revenue are we looking to plug worse case, i.e. if we needed to replace all car petrol / Diesel fuel tax raised annually?

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

[FiF]

samoht said:

plfrench said:

Haven't got time to Google it right now, as have a meeting starting in 3mins, but how much revenue are we looking to plug worse case, i.e. if we needed to replace all car petrol / Diesel fuel tax raised annually?

If you look at it per mile:

A decently economical car might average 45 mpg
A gallon is about 4.5 litres, so that's about 10 miles per litre of petrol
Tax is 52.5p per litre plus 20% of the total, which comes out at 85p per litre tax if sold at £1.60
So that's 85p tax paid to drive 10 miles, or 8.5 pence per mile.

A decently economical EV might average 3.5 miles per kWh
So 8.5 p/mile x 3.5 miles/kWh = just under 30 p per kWh tax to pay.


That's effectively a 100% tax rate, as current standard rates are about 30p/kWh. Off peak is generally under 10p/kWh, so would be a big difference to that.

That would be to collect approximately the same amount of tax per mile driven from EVs from their fuel as the govt currently do with petrol and diesel cars.

That's a very interesting set of calculations, thanks very much. Hmmmmm.

Could make a PV solar panel installation for EV charging much more interesting if that avoids such a tax. Careful use of avoids tax as oppose to evades.

[skinnyman]

Mikehig said:

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

There's only 2 solutions I can see.

1, you're taxed when charging the car, your smart meter will be able to tell them when an EV is being charged.
2, we all end up with black boxes, and pay per mile.

[AstonZagato]

skinnyman said:

Mikehig said:

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

There's only 2 solutions I can see.

1, you're taxed when charging the car, your smart meter will be able to tell them when an EV is being charged.
2, we all end up with black boxes, and pay per mile.

It has to be 2.
Solar panels / off grid / granny chargers are too difficult to catch. Plus there is not enough prying into one's life with solution 1.

[FiF]

AstonZagato said:

skinnyman said:

Mikehig said:

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

There's only 2 solutions I can see.

1, you're taxed when charging the car, your smart meter will be able to tell them when an EV is being charged.
2, we all end up with black boxes, and pay per mile.

It has to be 2.
Solar panels / off grid / granny chargers are too difficult to catch. Plus there is not enough prying into one's life with solution 1.

2 gives the opportunity for different rates per mile, congested areas and times more expensive than out in remote quiet areas where also there are no public transport options. If it's made to be a flat rate then a real vote loser in ruralshire.
However 2 also expensive to implement and operate whichever charging structure imposed. Problem of evasion too.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

AstonZagato said:

skinnyman said:

Mikehig said:

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

There's only 2 solutions I can see.

1, you're taxed when charging the car, your smart meter will be able to tell them when an EV is being charged.
2, we all end up with black boxes, and pay per mile.

It has to be 2.
Solar panels / off grid / granny chargers are too difficult to catch. Plus there is not enough prying into one's life with solution 1.

2 gives the opportunity for different rates per mile, congested areas and times more expensive than out in remote quiet areas where also there are no public transport options. If it's made to be a flat rate then a real vote loser in ruralshire.
However 2 also expensive to implement and operate whichever charging structure imposed. Problem of evasion too.

And to think PH was started by a community of TVR enthusiasts. What a miserable conversation.

[loudlashadjuster]

You can still talk about TVRs. Nobody forces you to post here

[otolith]

There is a third solution, which is to ask whether how a person gets around ought to be the basis for how much tax he pays, and whether there is a fairer way to share that burden. But people are already resigned to it.

Personally, I’d just tax electricity and tier it by usage - why should someone pay a special rate to charge their car that Rishi doesn’t pay to heat his swimming pool?

[CG2020UK]

otolith said:

There is a third solution, which is to ask whether how a person gets around ought to be the basis for how much tax he pays, and whether there is a fairer way to share that burden. But people are already resigned to it.

Personally, I’d just tax electricity and tier it by usage - why should someone pay a special rate to charge their car that Rishi doesn’t pay to heat his swimming pool?

It’s the U.K

It’s basically patriotic for the average Joe to fund the 1% now.

Like when you were a kid and the kid who has the ball got to decide the rules as he goes for his own benefit. Except when you’re an adult you realise the kid with the ball is a tosser and you are better off without him and just getting a different ball.

[FiF]

Penny Whistle said:

FiF said:

Penny Whistle said:

Do you have any data regarding people who will be able to charge their cars at their place of work ?

It's a bit fragmented but quick summary.

Thanks, rather more than I expected and it could add another cohort for whom an EV could work, despite not having charging facilities at home.

Unamusingly I have a slight update to that earlier bit of info given about the workplace charging specific to us.

The 100 place chargers are no longer free to staff. 45p/kWh, though the pay and display charge is waived if you have a permit, which you also pay for and stopped from salary.

The 2x2 7kw original chargers on main campus which were free to everyone, any visitors just paid the pay and display charge, have now been turned off. Which according to the service engineer who turned up when they were reported inoperative is contrary to the signed contract.

Brown stuff heading towards fan I reckon. Sneaky buggers and disappointing.

[Sheepshanks]

FiF said:

AstonZagato said:

skinnyman said:

Mikehig said:

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

There's only 2 solutions I can see.

1, you're taxed when charging the car, your smart meter will be able to tell them when an EV is being charged.
2, we all end up with black boxes, and pay per mile.

It has to be 2.
Solar panels / off grid / granny chargers are too difficult to catch. Plus there is not enough prying into one's life with solution 1.

2 gives the opportunity for different rates per mile, congested areas and times more expensive than out in remote quiet areas where also there are no public transport options. If it's made to be a flat rate then a real vote loser in ruralshire.
However 2 also expensive to implement and operate whichever charging structure imposed. Problem of evasion too.

It is going to be 2. It also brings in automatic speed limiting - been worked on for years.

[AstonZagato]

CG2020UK said:

It’s the U.K

It’s basically patriotic for the average Joe to fund the 1% now.

Like when you were a kid and the kid who has the ball got to decide the rules as he goes for his own benefit. Except when you’re an adult you realise the kid with the ball is a tosser and you are better off without him and just getting a different ball.

The top 1% pay 28.3% of all income taxes in the UK.

[AstonZagato]

wormus said:

FiF said:

AstonZagato said:

skinnyman said:

Mikehig said:

According to Statista, UK fuel taxes raised just over £25 bn last year.

There's only 2 solutions I can see.

1, you're taxed when charging the car, your smart meter will be able to tell them when an EV is being charged.
2, we all end up with black boxes, and pay per mile.

It has to be 2.
Solar panels / off grid / granny chargers are too difficult to catch. Plus there is not enough prying into one's life with solution 1.

2 gives the opportunity for different rates per mile, congested areas and times more expensive than out in remote quiet areas where also there are no public transport options. If it's made to be a flat rate then a real vote loser in ruralshire.
However 2 also expensive to implement and operate whichever charging structure imposed. Problem of evasion too.

And to think PH was started by a community of TVR enthusiasts. What a miserable conversation.

The taxation will affect TVR owners too. Petrol is/was easy to tax at source. It is highly sensitive to usage - drive a gas-guzzling car in heavy urban congestion for 100k miles a year and you'll pay way more than someone in an econobox driving 3k on country roads. The switch to EVs has just highlighted how the poor motorist has been raped on tax for decades. The government (of whichever colour rosette) will need to replace that cash-cow. The "best solution" in their minds will be the one that gives them the most intrusion into our lives and comes with added benefits of control. That is depressing but if you think anything else is coming your way, you will be disappointed.

[defblade]

AstonZagato said:

The taxation will affect TVR owners too. Petrol is/was easy to tax at source. It is highly sensitive to usage - drive a gas-guzzling car in heavy urban congestion for 100k miles a year and you'll pay way more than someone in an econobox driving 3k on country roads.

I never quite understood why VED duty exists as a mechanism to band cars by size/pollution/performance/whatever when simply adding more to fuel tax would immediately and accurately take every part of chosen economy/usage into account. You could leave the "expensive" new car tax on if you want to garner a little extra from the "rich".