EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Olivera said:
Unreal said:
I think it's a racing certainty that changes will be needed. That's based on little more than life and professional experience of seeing how well transformational infrastructure is delivered in this country. It's therefore just as well changes are allowed for.
We've been rolling out fibre broadband for 15+ years, yet full fibre to the home only has 66% coverage. Rolling out on-street and communal charging provision would seem a much bigger logistical and costly challenge, but it's going to be complete in 10?People without their own private parking need to start thinking a little more logically and come to terms with the reality that they must wait until the destination charging network is built by others which they can use.
Or, someone could explain how street chargers would work on residential roads full of homes with no private parking?
D4rez said:
loudlashadjuster said:
Fox- said:
DonkeyApple said:
Buying new is still a choice and I'm not sure it's remotely difficult to buy a petrol car new, one simply walks into a car shop, point at what you want and then bend over. 80% of new cars are still ICE.
Manufacturers have already started reducing the range of available petrol cars you can buy.Want a petrol Mercedes E Class? The UK market only gets the 2 litre now. The larger engine ones remain available elsewhere.
Perhaps you'd like a BMW 430i coupe? Not in the UK, removed from the range. Still available elsewhere though..
The 2035 ban is irrelevant as the zero emissions mandate will have made it difficult if not impossible to buy a petrol car long before that.
My take? The UK has always disproportionately favoured miserable-engined versions of "luxury" cars, so the juicier options being dropped from the UK before Germany etc. is just a consequence of that.
Now CO2 is the decisive factor and UK customers at an aggregate level don’t care enough to pay the higher fines in pricing. It’s that simple.
Also we follow the EU on emissions standards. So if you are BMW trying to decide whether to do a RHD Euro 7 compliant calibration for a 3.0l petrol next gen 3 series. You’re only going to do it if you can sell it in decent numbers for £80k+ and cover your emissions fine costs. It doesn’t make sense otherwise.
The way this has already played out is that non-4 cylinder cars are either SUVs or higher margin performance cars. In the UK no one really buys sports cars so 6-cyl and above is really only an SUV or crossover, with a good badge and a price point approaching 6 figures. This will continue as the fines rise across EU/UK and we’re only in the first years of these ZeV/CO2 regimes. The choice only gets less from here.
So if you’re hoping that an ICE ban extension from 2035 to 2036 means you can buy whatever.. think again unless you’ve got something like £250k to drop. Already this group of customers is small enough to be a political irrelevance so that won’t swing it either.
It would be fair. Next door could take their kids on multiple flights and get the bus. I could holiday in Bognor Regis and drive everywhere in my gas guzzlers. Win win. P
DonkeyApple said:
Olivera said:
Unreal said:
I think it's a racing certainty that changes will be needed. That's based on little more than life and professional experience of seeing how well transformational infrastructure is delivered in this country. It's therefore just as well changes are allowed for.
We've been rolling out fibre broadband for 15+ years, yet full fibre to the home only has 66% coverage. Rolling out on-street and communal charging provision would seem a much bigger logistical and costly challenge, but it's going to be complete in 10?People without their own private parking need to start thinking a little more logically and come to terms with the reality that they must wait until the destination charging network is built by others which they can use.
Or, someone could explain how street chargers would work on residential roads full of homes with no private parking?
DonkeyApple said:
Olivera said:
Unreal said:
I think it's a racing certainty that changes will be needed. That's based on little more than life and professional experience of seeing how well transformational infrastructure is delivered in this country. It's therefore just as well changes are allowed for.
We've been rolling out fibre broadband for 15+ years, yet full fibre to the home only has 66% coverage. Rolling out on-street and communal charging provision would seem a much bigger logistical and costly challenge, but it's going to be complete in 10?People without their own private parking need to start thinking a little more logically and come to terms with the reality that they must wait until the destination charging network is built by others which they can use.
Or, someone could explain how street chargers would work on residential roads full of homes with no private parking?
Points to study which suggested that to achieve net zero by the timescale the politicians have set for UK will require the equivalent effort of one HS2 every year for decades.
LoL how long for one HS2 so far? Plus we can't rely on importing the effort from overseas as other nations will be sorting their own issues out.
Unreal said:
Exactly. The tension might arise from the fact it isnt just the proles who lack off street parking. It won't work in Cheltenham centre, Hove actually or Chelsea.
Margaret can wail all she likes from her window in Montpellier but no one is going to be listening as there's nothing to be done. Installing chargers that will potentially have never more than one customer a day and only buying for an hour or two while decimating the total number of cars that can be parked due to marked spacings isn't ever going to happen. These are people who move cones and bins to try and lay claim to a space that isn't theirs. They park their commercial vehicles outside other people's windows and they rant at each other about their parking while becoming enraged should a non resident park despite it being perfectly legitimate. Start to fit chargers and these people will implode. They'll be ripping out cables and running down the street twisting their nipples and screaming in confusion while the Margaret's will live forever on hold to their MP who isn't interested in the idiotic rantings of a self important thicko whose husband has already chosen the sweet release of death to escape the mad old bint.
Unreal said:
D4rez said:
loudlashadjuster said:
Fox- said:
DonkeyApple said:
Buying new is still a choice and I'm not sure it's remotely difficult to buy a petrol car new, one simply walks into a car shop, point at what you want and then bend over. 80% of new cars are still ICE.
Manufacturers have already started reducing the range of available petrol cars you can buy.Want a petrol Mercedes E Class? The UK market only gets the 2 litre now. The larger engine ones remain available elsewhere.
Perhaps you'd like a BMW 430i coupe? Not in the UK, removed from the range. Still available elsewhere though..
The 2035 ban is irrelevant as the zero emissions mandate will have made it difficult if not impossible to buy a petrol car long before that.
My take? The UK has always disproportionately favoured miserable-engined versions of "luxury" cars, so the juicier options being dropped from the UK before Germany etc. is just a consequence of that.
Now CO2 is the decisive factor and UK customers at an aggregate level don’t care enough to pay the higher fines in pricing. It’s that simple.
Also we follow the EU on emissions standards. So if you are BMW trying to decide whether to do a RHD Euro 7 compliant calibration for a 3.0l petrol next gen 3 series. You’re only going to do it if you can sell it in decent numbers for £80k+ and cover your emissions fine costs. It doesn’t make sense otherwise.
The way this has already played out is that non-4 cylinder cars are either SUVs or higher margin performance cars. In the UK no one really buys sports cars so 6-cyl and above is really only an SUV or crossover, with a good badge and a price point approaching 6 figures. This will continue as the fines rise across EU/UK and we’re only in the first years of these ZeV/CO2 regimes. The choice only gets less from here.
So if you’re hoping that an ICE ban extension from 2035 to 2036 means you can buy whatever.. think again unless you’ve got something like £250k to drop. Already this group of customers is small enough to be a political irrelevance so that won’t swing it either.
It would be fair. Next door could take their kids on multiple flights and get the bus. I could holiday in Bognor Regis and drive everywhere in my gas guzzlers. Win win. P
There is a point here that the car industry’s carbon footprint impact is tightly tracked and relatively easy for customers to see. We already know the manufacturing footprint, we could show a user the real world CO2 impact of the fuel consumed on their 3 minute drive to Waitrose. We could even show them a comparison of that to other road users and others at population level or publish a CO2 bill of any work done at a service or tyre change
Whereas if I eat a kilo of steak and spontaneously head of to Malaga for a day trip… very difficult to calculate, track and present to the individual
DonkeyApple said:
Or, someone could explain how street chargers would work on residential roads full of homes with no private parking?
Well, when the topic comes up we have proponents on here suggesting all kinds of bats
t swing-arm and cable-guttering solutions. To be fair some of it might be possible, but rollout thus far is effectively non existent.Olivera said:
DonkeyApple said:
Or, someone could explain how street chargers would work on residential roads full of homes with no private parking?
Well, when the topic comes up we have proponents on here suggesting all kinds of batst swing-arm and cable-guttering solutions. To be fair some of it might be possible, but rollout thus far is effectively non existent.D4rez said:
Carbon credit card would be fair…. And banning business flights or taking them off a personal allowance. All a bit Orwellian…
There is a point here that the car industry’s carbon footprint impact is tightly tracked and relatively easy for customers to see. We already know the manufacturing footprint, we could show a user the real world CO2 impact of the fuel consumed on their 3 minute drive to Waitrose. We could even show them a comparison of that to other road users and others at population level or publish a CO2 bill of any work done at a service or tyre change
Whereas if I eat a kilo of steak and spontaneously head of to Malaga for a day trip… very difficult to calculate, track and present to the individual
If we are serious about reducing emissions, we could consider shifting the basis of taxation from income to emissions via consumption. It would create a lot of carbon accounting work, especially for imported goods, but would have the desired effect of disincentivising high emission choices. There would be wailing and gnashing of teeth that it meant that the rich could continue to consume a larger part of the world's resources than the poor, as if that is something new, or not the entire basis of Western consumer society.There is a point here that the car industry’s carbon footprint impact is tightly tracked and relatively easy for customers to see. We already know the manufacturing footprint, we could show a user the real world CO2 impact of the fuel consumed on their 3 minute drive to Waitrose. We could even show them a comparison of that to other road users and others at population level or publish a CO2 bill of any work done at a service or tyre change
Whereas if I eat a kilo of steak and spontaneously head of to Malaga for a day trip… very difficult to calculate, track and present to the individual
FiF said:
Agreed regarding on-street parking, though Olivera's point is completely valid by the inclusion of the point "communal charging provision". Which then by implication introduces the question of where and thus questions of land allocation and perhaps zoning. Questions which need to be considered and won't happen overnight.
Points to study which suggested that to achieve net zero by the timescale the politicians have set for UK will require the equivalent effort of one HS2 every year for decades.
LoL how long for one HS2 so far? Plus we can't rely on importing the effort from overseas as other nations will be sorting their own issues out.
It's all going to mainly be private. Employers will have to fill their car parks if they want to get their staff using EVs and not discriminate. Retailers will have to fill their car parks if they want those customers. Communal spaces such as church and village hall car parks can seek to monetise their mostly empty spaces. Land owners can seek planning to create charge hubs etc. Points to study which suggested that to achieve net zero by the timescale the politicians have set for UK will require the equivalent effort of one HS2 every year for decades.
LoL how long for one HS2 so far? Plus we can't rely on importing the effort from overseas as other nations will be sorting their own issues out.
The only true hurdle is a legal one which currently allows the charger operator to act as a principal electricity vendor and at some point over the next ten years that needs to end and they be forced to be brokers with the actual sale of the electricity being reverted back to the utilities and the consumer's domestic account.
loudlashadjuster said:
Fox- said:
loudlashadjuster said:
But many of the markets in which the larger-engined cars you mention are still available have the same phase-out mandate and timeline as the UK, so I'm not sure what that proves?
I don't think it does - who else is mandating that 38% of vehicles sold new must be zero emissions in 3 years time?The EU said:
Anyway, we're probably all arguing the same point - that moving to electric is not, as some like to present it, only ever going to be a choice. We'll have to do it regardless of whether we really want to or not.
This in part is probably why it's such a controversial topic.
There just won't be the petrol cars in the range to buy much, much sooner than 2035.
Olivera said:
... fibre broadband...
...Rolling out on-street and communal charging provision would seem a much bigger logistical and costly challenge, but it's going to be complete in 10?
Firstly, it doesn't need to be completed in 10 years. That is just when new ICE sales stop. The majority of cars on the road will still be ICE/hybrid....Rolling out on-street and communal charging provision would seem a much bigger logistical and costly challenge, but it's going to be complete in 10?
Secondly, remember the average annual mileage in the UK? It's only 7000 miles. The vast majority of UK motorists will NOT need to plug their cars in more than once a week. Assuming there needs to be a charge point for every non-driveway dwelling is 100% wrong.
"over 56,000 public chargepoints have now been installed across the UK – up 47% from this time last year" with more funding to come from central government.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boost-for-drive...
Olivera said:
We've been rolling out fibre broadband for 15+ years, yet full fibre to the home only has 66% coverage. Rolling out on-street and communal charging provision would seem a much bigger logistical and costly challenge, but it's going to be complete in 10?
Why would it need to be complete in 10 when the vehicle transition has still got 25 years to run?It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
D4rez said:
UK and US is not far behind (people just haven’t realised it yet because it’s not labelled a ban)
This type of legislation is sneaky, insidious and quite frankly, you can see exactly why hate and violence against politicians is becoming more commonplace.Most consumers will only realise that they can no longer buy the type of car they want when they visit their dealer in a few years only to be confronted by a row of expensive electric crossover blobs. Some are even having orders for ICE cars cancelled, with dealers trying their hardest to get them to take the EVs that are clogging-up forecourts instead. I suspect that as a result, several European / western manufacturers that have cut everything else from their model ranges will go out of business within the next few years, especially when their increasingly bland, samey appliances are undercut by the latest spyware-riddled laptop on wheels from China. - Many that believed their own hype are already scaling-back electrification plans because they've finally realised that people don't want them, even with massive 5-figure discounts.
I've had to repeatedly tell my local BMW dealer to stop calling me and begging for another sale. They've been calling for months and were offering £7k off an i5 even before the first ones arrived in the UK.
The other thing the anti-EV crowd keep forgetting is that the discussion is about mass adoption by the UK over the next 20-30 years.
It is not about forcing every single edge case PHer into an EV by next year.
The fact is that even today, EVs are suitable for millions and millions of UK households - this isn't about affordability, but suitability, i.e. many of those households might not get an EV until 10-20 years from now, but an EV would fit into their daily lives quite easily TODAY.
It is not about forcing every single edge case PHer into an EV by next year.
The fact is that even today, EVs are suitable for millions and millions of UK households - this isn't about affordability, but suitability, i.e. many of those households might not get an EV until 10-20 years from now, but an EV would fit into their daily lives quite easily TODAY.
Fox- said:
loudlashadjuster said:
Fox- said:
loudlashadjuster said:
But many of the markets in which the larger-engined cars you mention are still available have the same phase-out mandate and timeline as the UK, so I'm not sure what that proves?
I don't think it does - who else is mandating that 38% of vehicles sold new must be zero emissions in 3 years time?The EU said:
Anyway, we're probably all arguing the same point - that moving to electric is not, as some like to present it, only ever going to be a choice. We'll have to do it regardless of whether we really want to or not.
This in part is probably why it's such a controversial topic.
There just won't be the petrol cars in the range to buy much, much sooner than 2035.
GT9 said:
Why would it need to be complete in 10 when the vehicle transition has still got 25 years to run?
It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
Leaving aside towing a caravan to Lands End, the average U.K. annual mileage will need around 12 minutes of DC charging per week. Al l that needs to happen is enough charging hubs in towns and cities to allow that plus a more equitable payment scheme.It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
Would spending 12 minutes at a petrol station once a week be the end of the world?
We don’t need chargers in every lamp post.
Those charging at home will enjoy a greater freedom, but they do that already by being able to park. That’s nothing new.
Its entirely feasible.
braddo said:
The vast majority of UK motorists will NOT need to plug their cars in more than once a week. Assuming there needs to be a charge point for every non-driveway dwelling is 100% wrong.
Hang on, we had a poll on the PH EV forum a few weeks ago asking "would you own an EV if you did not have at home (off street) charging?". The answer was IIRC 90%+ answering no, that included many EV owners. Now that I'm expressing concern for those with no prospect of home charging and an impending ICE ban, you're now pontificating that it's a non-issue? Which is it?GT9 said:
Why would it need to be complete in 10 when the vehicle transition has still got 25 years to run?
It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
The transition need not be complete by 2035, but my main concern is that those who do not off street charging are materially disadvantaged versus the rest of society, especially as this is mainly a poorer demographic. The matter of facts are come 2035:It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
1) New ICE car supply will drop to zero, this may well have an inflationary effect on second hand ICE prices, especially if sales drop prior to 2035
2) Those without off street charging will be significantly disadvantaged with respect to charging convenience
3) Those without off street charging will be significantly disadvantaged with respect to charging cost
Yes in the fullness of time these challenges will be overcome, but an arbitrary 2035 date might not be fair, just or even required.
Olivera said:
braddo said:
The vast majority of UK motorists will NOT need to plug their cars in more than once a week. Assuming there needs to be a charge point for every non-driveway dwelling is 100% wrong.
Hang on, we had a poll on the PH EV forum a few weeks ago asking "would you own an EV if you did not have at home (off street) charging?". The answer was IIRC 90%+ answering no, that included many EV owners. Now that I'm expressing concern for those with no prospect of home charging and an impending ICE ban, you're now pontificating that it's a non-issue? Which is it?GT9 said:
Why would it need to be complete in 10 when the vehicle transition has still got 25 years to run?
It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
The transition need not be complete by 2035, but my main concern is that those who do not off street charging are materially disadvantaged versus the rest of society, especially as this is mainly a poorer demographic. The matter of facts are come 2035:It only needs to be about 40% complete by 2035.
In fact, why not get the cars to the people with home charging first, requiring even less public charging by then.
Recharge times and battery range will also be unrecognisable compared to today by the end of the transition.
It feels like you are trying to envisage something based on zero foresight.
1) New ICE car supply will drop to zero, this may well have an inflationary effect on second hand ICE prices, especially if sales drop prior to 2035
2) Those without off street charging will be significantly disadvantaged with respect to charging convenience
3) Those without off street charging will be significantly disadvantaged with respect to charging cost
Yes in the fullness of time these challenges will be overcome, but an arbitrary 2035 date might not be fair, just or even required.
Re 2), convenience is wholly irrelevant. Seriously, of absolutely no relevance. Such people already have many inconveniences in contrast to higher income earners and that's not going to change.
3) Absolutely. By comparison and if nothing changes. Yet 'comparison' when compared to petrol suddenly looks potentially completely the opposite and of course, nothing stays the same and the more customers for remote charging the more competition and the Govt knows it has to change the legals from principal to agent, you very obviously can't have random charger operators acting as utility vendors.
DonkeyApple said:
How many new cars do you think we actually buy each year in the U.K. and ow many cars do you think there are in total? I think you've got your number very badly skewed to take the view that you have.
What number, I've not posted one other than that 38% of new car sales in 2027 must be electric.We're talking about the purchase of new cars after all.
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff