Discussion
The prime attraction of any kit car show has to be manufacturers - all else follows, that is how previous kit car shows became established long term. Manufacturers are or were, the core of any show and Stafford was built on that principle. I have to say that if showing cars is no longer an attraction (and I have not attended a kit car show for many years to assume differently), then I'm not sure how any kit car show can work.
If I am right, then the show with most manufacturers will still attract the most support. Carrying that further, my suggestion for the industry would be for it to whole heartedly support the next Stoneleigh show, not as a substitute for other shows, but as a prime consideration.
If manufacturers and the industry's media adopt this suggestion, then Stoneleigh might just expand from that point, taking the industry along with it and maybe opening up a few more sales opportunities (shows) in the future. If Stoneleigh grows then that is a start in the right direction and that would be good news which as I have said is good for everybody. So the most simple and cost effective idea would be for mass support for Stoneleigh from within the industry and that means not thinking of negative reasons to avoid the event or not walking alongside those you don't like. Your industry needs you - but not the poison of long standing and self justifying prejudices that helped to bring down a wounded industry quicker and further than it deserves.
Stoneleigh's organisers should seriously think about how increased manufacturer support can be achieved and maybe meeting with them to discuss what the show can do, perhaps by cutting stand prices and entrance fees to encourage all round positive thinking, not by a large percentage but by enough to show that they too are marching along in the same direction with the rest. Sitting down and establishing a closer working relationship with those who should be the prime attraction at the show can only foster more understanding and a willingness to work together. The industry's media should also attend for their support and potential good news items would be a key ingredient for recovery.
Those with negative views about working with others have already brought this industry down quicker than the slow but incessant receding tide of public interest. Just for once they should try and imagine the precise impact of why good news for the industry is always good news for them. We already have witnessed the results of negativity close up and nobody - least of all those involved in such inane and destructive pastimes - are feeling good about the industry today.
Manchester/Stafford were both created in order to assist a fledgling industry to both grow and become more widely known. I can't think of any other reason for putting on a show, other than for it to be something the industry would feel is a positive addition to it.
However, I cannot guarantee that this suggestion will prevent the tide from receding further, but this is your industry and those within in have to sort out it and their own problems, if they wish to have a long term future within it.
If I am right, then the show with most manufacturers will still attract the most support. Carrying that further, my suggestion for the industry would be for it to whole heartedly support the next Stoneleigh show, not as a substitute for other shows, but as a prime consideration.
If manufacturers and the industry's media adopt this suggestion, then Stoneleigh might just expand from that point, taking the industry along with it and maybe opening up a few more sales opportunities (shows) in the future. If Stoneleigh grows then that is a start in the right direction and that would be good news which as I have said is good for everybody. So the most simple and cost effective idea would be for mass support for Stoneleigh from within the industry and that means not thinking of negative reasons to avoid the event or not walking alongside those you don't like. Your industry needs you - but not the poison of long standing and self justifying prejudices that helped to bring down a wounded industry quicker and further than it deserves.
Stoneleigh's organisers should seriously think about how increased manufacturer support can be achieved and maybe meeting with them to discuss what the show can do, perhaps by cutting stand prices and entrance fees to encourage all round positive thinking, not by a large percentage but by enough to show that they too are marching along in the same direction with the rest. Sitting down and establishing a closer working relationship with those who should be the prime attraction at the show can only foster more understanding and a willingness to work together. The industry's media should also attend for their support and potential good news items would be a key ingredient for recovery.
Those with negative views about working with others have already brought this industry down quicker than the slow but incessant receding tide of public interest. Just for once they should try and imagine the precise impact of why good news for the industry is always good news for them. We already have witnessed the results of negativity close up and nobody - least of all those involved in such inane and destructive pastimes - are feeling good about the industry today.
Manchester/Stafford were both created in order to assist a fledgling industry to both grow and become more widely known. I can't think of any other reason for putting on a show, other than for it to be something the industry would feel is a positive addition to it.
However, I cannot guarantee that this suggestion will prevent the tide from receding further, but this is your industry and those within in have to sort out it and their own problems, if they wish to have a long term future within it.
Edited by Fair Parking on Friday 7th October 11:30
It's really good to have your input on here Ron I'm sure everyone is taking note of your input, wisdom and experience.
I do think these days there does need to be something more than just a collection of static cars though. Personally I've always found the trade stands just as much a reason to go plus the owners clubs too. I do think something that offers audience participation is all the more important these days too and I think this is safest and most controlled in a track environment which does somewhat restrict some venues though I've been to venues where obstacle courses on parade grounds have been just as good. I can even remember the Limbo competitions on Hindhead Cricket Club's pitch being good fun to watch too so it does not have to be a track or speed thing.
I do think these days there does need to be something more than just a collection of static cars though. Personally I've always found the trade stands just as much a reason to go plus the owners clubs too. I do think something that offers audience participation is all the more important these days too and I think this is safest and most controlled in a track environment which does somewhat restrict some venues though I've been to venues where obstacle courses on parade grounds have been just as good. I can even remember the Limbo competitions on Hindhead Cricket Club's pitch being good fun to watch too so it does not have to be a track or speed thing.
ok. exeter in two weeks how about a meeting after the show on saturday with all the manufacturers and the mags. and mr cooke, the show organiser and at least have an airing of opinions as to where things should be heading,surely this must be a good place to start, and i appreciate not all manufacturers will be there but maybe another meeting could be arranged towards the end of the year.someone help me out here!
Sonic7 said:
Excellent thread, with some very interesting and informative points of view. Yes the market has changed as has the customer base. Combining markets is an option and I very much hope someone takes forward that idea. I’m personally considering putting on an action meet / show next year so I’m very interested in peoples views and opinions of what would be considered, in order of priority, the top 8 key things that a Kit Car Show must have, from a paying customers view point in today’s market.
nigel
Meant to respond to this ages ago, but never got round to it, so, as a MOP here are the things I look for in a kit car show. (Not sure I'll come up with eight!) Please bear in mind that I am already an owner of a road legal (I hesitate to say "complete" nigel
) kit car, so I'm not really in the market for a new car or kit.1. Social aspect
I own a Minari, so I will be much more likely to go to a show if I know that other Minari owners will be there. Stoneleigh is the Owners' Register AGM, so I'll be most likely to attend Stoneleigh, though my attendance at the AGMs has been sporadic! The MOR has a little barbie and quite a few stay over till Monday, but I usually head home early evening.
2. The Manufacturers and their Cars
Even if I'm not in the market for a car or kit, I still want to look around the show to see what's what. It's all daydreaming at the moment. Some of it is looking at projects I might think about in about 5 years or so, some of it is pure lottery win daydreaming!
3. Parts, accessories and tools
Although the car is on the road now and any bits I still need I could buy online, there are some bits that it's better to see and touch before you buy them, so it's good to have a place where I can see a few possible retailers. I'm not going to find many Alfa parts, but I'll check out the tools too.
4. Errrrm?
Decent catering and toilets would be great, especially if I wanted to get Mrs FTR to come along, but their absence won't stop me attending.
I reckon that's about it for me. One of these days I might try the Westie slalom, but haven't been tempted so far. I remember the "Run what you brung" slalom that they used to do at Stoneleigh, that did keep me entertained for a little while, but that's not why I was at the show.
If there was a concert or similar entertainment on the first evening of any of the shows, that might tempt me to stay overnight, especially if it was included in the entry fee - maybe an all-in weekend ticket?
I'm not convinced that track time, test drives or demonstration runs would be that big a deal for me - as and when I want to buy another car/kit, I would definitely want to visit the manufacturer, take a test drive and take my time over things - I'd probably even want to think about it a bit more even after that tbh! (Again, that's just me!)
I would personally want to use a show to make a shortlist of cars that I'd want to look at more closely, so I'd be looking at the quality of the kit and finished car, whether or not I fit and whether I actually like the look of the car in the flesh. The only way I'd be ordering at a show would be if I had already visited the manufacturer and made my decision.
I'd be interested to know what would constitute a successful show for one of the manufacturers - selling kits at the show? Getting leads who then follow up and visit (and maybe buy)? Or just getting a lot of interest?
I appreciate that selling kits is a big deal, but I can't help thinking that the benefits of attending shows may end up being a little less tangible - maybe taking time to talk to a potential customer at a show might bring them back to you to buy four or five years later.
I’ve not posted on this particular forum as I’ve been waiting to see how it develops &, it seems to me that all of what FTR has written, I could also have written.
Just to emphasise / elaborate on a few points, for what it's worth:
1. Social: For me, for personal reasons, it is very much a social event in meeting ‘old’ friends especially those with the same car as me – a Pilgrim (nee Haldane) 3000 – which are not a very common sight.
2. Manufacturers’ Cars: It’s always interesting to see what else is available or “in the shop window” not that, given that I’ve only recently put mine on the road, I’m not particularly interested in a new project but, who knows?
3. Parts, etc: Yes, I’ve also got my car on the road but that doesn’t mean it’s finished! Is it ever? It’s far better to see ‘in the flesh’ what you’re buying especially when it comes to items where the appearance is all important.
The Westie slalom isn’t really for me, neither are ‘racing’ track days to participate in but I have sometimes wondered about taking mine on a track – with plenty of run-off, just in case! – for the experience as it’s not meant to be a track car, just as the Minari, I assume, above.
Demos / test drives would have been useful when choosing a kit to buy so could compare one with another in the same situation & at the same time. However, it would not be the sole source of information, etc & would need plenty of other research, etc.
A mixed show (eg kits & stocks, etc) would probably be of benefit to bring in larger crowds but it could still end up being a 2 (or more) part show.
I see the main point of a kit car show ought to be manufacturers showing their cars & stalls for parts & accessories; the hundreds (hopefully) of kit cars in the grounds is a very welcome added bonus. To me, it's a great shame that many manufacturer's don't seem to want to attend the shows & haven't for quite a few years - it's not just a recent thing for some. Add in items like talks of specific topics related to kit cars, AGMs etc & they help to make up a typical show for me but, it seems, it’s not enough for everybody & am really unsure what is the secret additional catalyst required today.
Just to emphasise / elaborate on a few points, for what it's worth:
1. Social: For me, for personal reasons, it is very much a social event in meeting ‘old’ friends especially those with the same car as me – a Pilgrim (nee Haldane) 3000 – which are not a very common sight.
2. Manufacturers’ Cars: It’s always interesting to see what else is available or “in the shop window” not that, given that I’ve only recently put mine on the road, I’m not particularly interested in a new project but, who knows?
3. Parts, etc: Yes, I’ve also got my car on the road but that doesn’t mean it’s finished! Is it ever? It’s far better to see ‘in the flesh’ what you’re buying especially when it comes to items where the appearance is all important.
The Westie slalom isn’t really for me, neither are ‘racing’ track days to participate in but I have sometimes wondered about taking mine on a track – with plenty of run-off, just in case! – for the experience as it’s not meant to be a track car, just as the Minari, I assume, above.
Demos / test drives would have been useful when choosing a kit to buy so could compare one with another in the same situation & at the same time. However, it would not be the sole source of information, etc & would need plenty of other research, etc.
A mixed show (eg kits & stocks, etc) would probably be of benefit to bring in larger crowds but it could still end up being a 2 (or more) part show.
I see the main point of a kit car show ought to be manufacturers showing their cars & stalls for parts & accessories; the hundreds (hopefully) of kit cars in the grounds is a very welcome added bonus. To me, it's a great shame that many manufacturer's don't seem to want to attend the shows & haven't for quite a few years - it's not just a recent thing for some. Add in items like talks of specific topics related to kit cars, AGMs etc & they help to make up a typical show for me but, it seems, it’s not enough for everybody & am really unsure what is the secret additional catalyst required today.
Stuart Mills said:
I wonder if we need more of this type of display?
I can only speak for myself, of course, but IMO that was part of the beginning of the slide into oblivion for the Autosport International show at the NEC.Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for a weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-respecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 12th October 19:14
I will be going down to Stafford this weekend, according to this 30,000 bikers expected over the two days, (not kit cars I appreciate) but proves that there's not a lot wrong with Stafford as a venue, people are prepared to travel....(95 miles away for me.)
http://www.classicbikeshows.com/showindex.asp
http://www.classicbikeshows.com/showindex.asp
Sam_68 said:
I can only speak for myself, of course, but IMO that was part of the beginning of the slide into oblivion for the Autosport International show at the NEC.
Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-repecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
I agree with EVERY point in this post.Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-repecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
My take on Autosport is that it was all the same year after year. I also know several manufacturers who were put of with the horrendous cost of a stand for the show. As a punter I also objectto paying £10 parking plus enterance, plus more if you want to see the live bit. The girls are okay as it is aimed at a certain market, but to have that at a Kit Car show would not work in my opinion. I think long term to make things viable kit cars may have to merge with other shows. this happened with the Custom car show at Doncaster, which became the custom and sports show.
shows will never pay without the dreamers, the desperate and those who will make a purchase.
shows will never pay without the dreamers, the desperate and those who will make a purchase.
Arthur Jackson said:
Sam_68 said:
I can only speak for myself, of course, but IMO that was part of the beginning of the slide into oblivion for the Autosport International show at the NEC.
Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-repecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
I agree with EVERY point in this post.Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-repecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
Frankthered said:
It wouldn't add a lot to the experience for me - I'd be too busy looking at my shoes to even notice the car.
I do recall causing a bit of trouble at the Autosports show a few years ago by making promo girl (a horrible, anorexic looking bint in lycra) f
k off out of the way to let me take some unencumbered pictures of the special, one-off Exige that Lotus were exhibiting. She was a bit put-out, I think. Arthur Jackson said:
Sam_68 said:
I can only speak for myself, of course, but IMO that was part of the beginning of the slide into oblivion for the Autosport International show at the NEC.
Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-repecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
I agree with EVERY point in this post.Bling/totty attracts the sort of people who are there for a day's entertainment, not to buy or do serious research on what's available. Manufacturers and suppliers of serious products quickly realise this and can't be arsed spending the time and money just for weekend fending off idiots, only to be replaced by more suppliers of bling and tat. Next thing you know, it's a car-themed funfair with guest appearances by Clarkson and co. and plummeting attendance, that no self-repecting genuine petrolhead would be seen within a mile of.
When I visit a supplier/manufacturer's stand, I want to talk to an engineer who knows his product. If I want to talk to an airheaded blonde who's only there 'cos she's getting paid, I'll go to Spearmint Rhino.
But maybe I'm just a grumpy old bugger... I'm sure someone will tell me that the Autosports Show currently attracts X hundred thousand visitors a year and makes a vast profit for its organisers - and it probably does - but it's no longer a place you'd visit if you're seriously interested in buying a racing car or the components/equipment to run it.
The downside risks of alienating a significant part of the Kit Car purchase process is too high. I think this sort of Gun Ho attitude could be seen as distinctly sexist publicity which is unnecessary and undesirable.
The Kit Car fraternity seems to include a significant family element. Manufacturers such as Vindicator are marketing a four seater Family model with success. That element would not sit well with this sort of profile.
The downside risk is always my concern: its the Accountant in me: I would suggest caution.
I value everyones opinion, the honesty shown in this thread is possibly a way that the future of the scene can be tailored to suit the market, or help find a new market.
Looking at age, would a young man be more likely to wish to be associated with the image portrayed of a girly on a car than the older potential customer?
Would the girly genuinely offend anyone? Girls on cars has been done for years, all ladies know that and accept it don't they?
At one show I was shocked to hear the "music" that was painfull and painfully loud and more shocked to see how thin the models were. Arh, the age problem. The youngish lads were very keen for photo opportunities. I bet those pics were all around the world the same day. Are the girlies there to ensure the manufacturers badge gets in the shot and freely distributed?
If you were interested in the car and not the girl would you walk away?
Looking at age, would a young man be more likely to wish to be associated with the image portrayed of a girly on a car than the older potential customer?
Would the girly genuinely offend anyone? Girls on cars has been done for years, all ladies know that and accept it don't they?
At one show I was shocked to hear the "music" that was painfull and painfully loud and more shocked to see how thin the models were. Arh, the age problem. The youngish lads were very keen for photo opportunities. I bet those pics were all around the world the same day. Are the girlies there to ensure the manufacturers badge gets in the shot and freely distributed?
If you were interested in the car and not the girl would you walk away?
I'm going to be controversial here and suggest that there's a whole load of PC nonsense going on with this now. I'm not going to say what's wrong with a pretty girl having her photos taken with a fancy car? why? Well because we've done the same some years back at the Motorshow in Paris. PC or Non PC it most definitely had every TV film crew and Photo Journalist taking lots and lots and lots of pictures and getting world wide free publicity for the car we were launching there. And it may well surprise you that that particular car appeals to a lot of women.
The point is though that Stuart is making is, sticking with the image that kit cars has as at the moment is not working. And it's hardly surprising as the image is of a bunch of wanna be Nigel Mansells all huddled together in a shed talking about diff ratios and dry sumps. If you go and see the shows that get the numbers in and buying products there's lots going on, from Sound offs, stunt bikes and cars, pretty girls galore and yes lots and lots of cars doing their thing and more often than not it's sideways in clouds of smoke.
So lets forget we're at that age when our ages are now beyond our waist sizes and ask which really is the sort of place you'd want to part with over £10 just to get in? A shed with a few old dressed up second hand cars with dressed down old codgers who'd rather have a halogen bulb than an LED cluster or would you prefer to spend it on somewhere where the pulse gets raised a tad? I think we're all agreed where it's not. So we best do something to show that we're not the sad cardigan brigade.
So any bright ideas and suggestions as to what we DO do are very welcome....
The point is though that Stuart is making is, sticking with the image that kit cars has as at the moment is not working. And it's hardly surprising as the image is of a bunch of wanna be Nigel Mansells all huddled together in a shed talking about diff ratios and dry sumps. If you go and see the shows that get the numbers in and buying products there's lots going on, from Sound offs, stunt bikes and cars, pretty girls galore and yes lots and lots of cars doing their thing and more often than not it's sideways in clouds of smoke.
So lets forget we're at that age when our ages are now beyond our waist sizes and ask which really is the sort of place you'd want to part with over £10 just to get in? A shed with a few old dressed up second hand cars with dressed down old codgers who'd rather have a halogen bulb than an LED cluster or would you prefer to spend it on somewhere where the pulse gets raised a tad? I think we're all agreed where it's not. So we best do something to show that we're not the sad cardigan brigade.
So any bright ideas and suggestions as to what we DO do are very welcome....
Edited by qdos on Thursday 13th October 07:31
But the problem isn’t just the shows it’s also the "mindset" of some of the 180 or so kit car manufacturers. 82 kit car manufacturers were approached to exhibit at the Motorsport UK show, Ricoh Centre in Coventry on the 5th & 6th of November, only 6 gave their commitment, they were all offered a place under the Kit & Specialist Sports Car “banner” at a cost of only £150 per car to exhibit. This is a great opportunity to get in front of the track day/competition market and yet most just didn’t seem interested or wanted to see how the show goes....
Edited by tombs on Thursday 13th October 12:24
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