Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
I was looking at this topic on a Carver One below...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?
h=0&f=23&t=1176672&mid=266334&i=40&nmt=Re%3A+You+Know+You+Want+
A lot of people seem to want one. Many point out the price was a little high and the performance a little lacking. Now here is an opening for a kit car that tilts. I would use a different titling system, that is cheaper and works better, a more powerful engine is a most. Something more like this BMW idea...
I think this could brink in new buyer. The tilt system would need to be fit by the factory or to be test before letting the trike on the road.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?
h=0&f=23&t=1176672&mid=266334&i=40&nmt=Re%3A+You+Know+You+Want+
A lot of people seem to want one. Many point out the price was a little high and the performance a little lacking. Now here is an opening for a kit car that tilts. I would use a different titling system, that is cheaper and works better, a more powerful engine is a most. Something more like this BMW idea...
I think this could brink in new buyer. The tilt system would need to be fit by the factory or to be test before letting the trike on the road.
Steffan said:
Agreed I cannot see this departure from convention being generally accepted. I have never seen one of these most unusual bikes close up. I think this is too unconventional to attract a real market.
I know some one who said much the same about the Atom! That found a market. I agree the market for this will not come from current kit car buyers, I see it being younger car divers wanting to save money and born again bikers playing it safe.Carver one failed as it was to slowly and two costly. The real problem build a kit like this is the engineering of the tilt system. This must be both safe and reliable at all times. If it does fail it must do so in a safe way.
You may want to go and look at this http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and see who out there working on these. I am certain one name will stand out for any interested in Kit cars. All that is need is the right tilt system and a little imagination.
Tell me you do not want to see on of these on the road. More bike than car.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Thursday 26th July 10:55
Here is something you will like more than my last ideas,
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
A quad based car...A road going kit car like this would be fun. Designed to take a number of body styles. The only problem I see is noise! If an enclosed body shell used. Would be a lot of fun! The bike engine stop a mainstream maker selling anything like this.
Also have a look at these
http://www.999motorsports.com/
Love the looks of the Hacker! Very now, bit like a more up to date Smart Roadster. Link these together and you would have a great Kit car.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
A quad based car...A road going kit car like this would be fun. Designed to take a number of body styles. The only problem I see is noise! If an enclosed body shell used. Would be a lot of fun! The bike engine stop a mainstream maker selling anything like this.
Also have a look at these
http://www.999motorsports.com/
Love the looks of the Hacker! Very now, bit like a more up to date Smart Roadster. Link these together and you would have a great Kit car.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Friday 27th July 10:12
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
This is a very interesting look back at the inexpensive and fun past of kits. An area the current industry is lacking in.
Two that stood out for
This is a very interesting look back at the inexpensive and fun past of kits. An area the current industry is lacking in.
Two that stood out for
Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 28th July 11:19
OwenK said:
I don't like the Hacker, but the bodywork options for Supersport are, well, wow:
I've thought for ages that some kind of dinky miniature car would actually be best for enjoying real, road driving. By having a smaller car, you can use more of the road width in cornering; also you're lighter, so need a smaller engine, and smaller wheels means smaller tyres which are cheaper. It couldn't do a trip to the alps with the Missus but maybe it doesn't need to?
On a related note, I was at Disneyland Paris this weekend with the family and went on the Autopia ride. I got to thinking how pretty all the little cars were, and how much fun one would be on the road with a bigger (moped?) engine.
A great commuter car I think, perhaps something that could be licensed as a quadricycle?
Bit like the Berkeley of the late 50's early 60's...I've thought for ages that some kind of dinky miniature car would actually be best for enjoying real, road driving. By having a smaller car, you can use more of the road width in cornering; also you're lighter, so need a smaller engine, and smaller wheels means smaller tyres which are cheaper. It couldn't do a trip to the alps with the Missus but maybe it doesn't need to?
On a related note, I was at Disneyland Paris this weekend with the family and went on the Autopia ride. I got to thinking how pretty all the little cars were, and how much fun one would be on the road with a bigger (moped?) engine.
A great commuter car I think, perhaps something that could be licensed as a quadricycle?
I have been read about 3D printing in this months Practical Performance car. This was about the RepRap project that is bringing down the cost of these machines. Using open source parts and software to build usable machines.
They offering machines for under £2000. These could easy make wing mirrors, bracket or trim bits. All the small plastic bits that add make production cars look good. Look at the dash in most kit cars, now think how good there would with a dash design for that car. The only costs, once the machine is bought, is power and the feeder plastic.
Currently the RepRap 3D printer to small to create panels or body shell, but they still offer the kit car industry a great deal. Maybe in the future there will be larger machines offer by this project that could do this.
They can be contacted at www.reprapcental.com or www.reprap.org
They offering machines for under £2000. These could easy make wing mirrors, bracket or trim bits. All the small plastic bits that add make production cars look good. Look at the dash in most kit cars, now think how good there would with a dash design for that car. The only costs, once the machine is bought, is power and the feeder plastic.
Currently the RepRap 3D printer to small to create panels or body shell, but they still offer the kit car industry a great deal. Maybe in the future there will be larger machines offer by this project that could do this.
They can be contacted at www.reprapcental.com or www.reprap.org
Steffan said:
I still believe that is the Berkeley was offered as a kit using any of the big Japanese bikes as a power source it would sell and sell well. Probably offer 120++ performance, for the brave, and 65mpg when cruising.
Which begs the question. Bearing in mind the Berkeley was designed by Laurie Bond in the late 1940's and built in the 1950's has there really been any progress in small sports car design in 60 years?
Certainly materials and mechanical reliability has improved. But design flair? What do others think.
1940's the first Berkeley was not build until 1956 and the company fold in 1961 (after the company caravan business flailed). Selling about 4,000 car in that time, almost half were T60.Which begs the question. Bearing in mind the Berkeley was designed by Laurie Bond in the late 1940's and built in the 1950's has there really been any progress in small sports car design in 60 years?
Certainly materials and mechanical reliability has improved. But design flair? What do others think.
As for progress try these...
A Suzuki Cappuccino or this Secma Trike...
There have attempts to bring the Berkeley back, most never got very far. Production cost are the same as for a bigger car, meaning low profits. Clearly there is a market for a lower cost small/micro sportscar. A possible route could be to build it as a heavy quadricycles, which would mean below 15kw and under 400kgs, then it could be tested under MSVA rules.
A better route is to use the rules for a trike. Look at the Secma trike, it has 4 wheels, but as these are within 16" count as one and is build to MSVA rules as it is under 1000kg. It was a production car, but I believe it was dropped when the F19 went into production along with a similar 500GT model.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Tuesday 31st July 15:16
Steffan said:
When I said that the Berkeley was designed in the late 1940's I was referring to the details in the Laurie Bond biography and the history of the Bond cars which I have spent some time researching.
The original ideas and designs for the Berkeley were begun in the late 1940's as I understand it. The production of the actual cars did take some time to get off the ground.
As to the Cappuccino and the other Kei very small Japanese sports cars I personally think the four seater Berkeley is the much prettier and better car.
I am aware that various attempts were made to reintroduce the Berkeley. Under funded from the start and poorly executed, they lead nowhere as well they might.
My primary concern was to emphasise the remarkable package that the 750 Berkeley represented. As usual on British Car making, of the time, the project was underdeveloped and under funded. Unsurprisingly it folded.
OK the idea of the B60 comes from the 1940's, but there was no connection between Bond car and Berkeley.The original ideas and designs for the Berkeley were begun in the late 1940's as I understand it. The production of the actual cars did take some time to get off the ground.
As to the Cappuccino and the other Kei very small Japanese sports cars I personally think the four seater Berkeley is the much prettier and better car.
I am aware that various attempts were made to reintroduce the Berkeley. Under funded from the start and poorly executed, they lead nowhere as well they might.
My primary concern was to emphasise the remarkable package that the 750 Berkeley represented. As usual on British Car making, of the time, the project was underdeveloped and under funded. Unsurprisingly it folded.
4 seater Berkeley compared to the two seat Cappuccino. I agree that most of the Kei are very boxy and ugly. As to the 750 I have not seen one and know very little about them, beyond the fact it was sold.Underdeveloped and under funded could sum up the British car industry from the 1960's on wards.
one eyed mick said:
My thoughts are ,if you guys really know how to put the industry on its feet why don't you band together and do it
WE DON'T! We just think we do! We could be right!Second in my case I don't have the money or skills needed to start a kit car business. Not that this has held people back in the past.
Dreamspeed said:
After viewing the last few post, which seem to suggest that the kitcar industry should concentrate on simple, small, open-top cars or even three wheelers; as much as I agree that these little things would be a blast to drive for an hour or two, I do feel that the kitcar world has these types of small basic cars already, and they aren’t without their problems.
They’re fun, even cheeky, but impractical and too small for motorway use. For me, and this is personnel taste they lack presence. The Italians make the best cars with soul, the Germans make great engineering masterpieces and the Japanese dominate the “techno” world when it comes to cars; we used to be a world leader, but it worries me that all we can muster are 3 cylinder trike’s that would get all out of shape when passed by a lorry.
I disagree with this the kit car industry must widen its customer base. Yes small fun cars could a part of this, but there must be more. The your first remark on trikes, I think show a limited knowledge, as I would use two back wheels! The rest of the comment is fair most small trike are blown around by lorry, but so are many small production cars. The last few issue of Complete kit car have all had three wheeler in them, clear other do agree with you.They’re fun, even cheeky, but impractical and too small for motorway use. For me, and this is personnel taste they lack presence. The Italians make the best cars with soul, the Germans make great engineering masterpieces and the Japanese dominate the “techno” world when it comes to cars; we used to be a world leader, but it worries me that all we can muster are 3 cylinder trike’s that would get all out of shape when passed by a lorry.
Do you like fast cars! Performance cars? Yes!
You know a Morgan three wheeler was the first car to lap Brooklands at an average speed of 100 mph not that means much today. The following comes from facts are take form Fast Lane Oct 1988...
Fact one in 1979 William Tur in a Morgan three wheeler set a 51.8 second lap on Mallory Park's one mile circuit. Fact two the record for a 2000cc Production (on road tires) set in August 1987 by a Sierra RS Costworth was 54.0 seconds. Look at lap average speeds RS 90 and Morgan 93.8. The Morgan is faster, more than that after 25 laps it would catch the RS if they started together. At Snetterton the times are RS 1 min 16.9 second, Morgan 1min 17 seconds.
The sad part is none of day three wheel cars are as shockingly quick. Remember the Morgan where cheap cars when new and the Morgan had just 2 cylinders. Reliant and all the other badly design three wheeler's (not TRIKE) have a lot to answer for!
Dreamspeed said:
Ok, I appreciate that many don’t have the time, money or skills to undertake something like this; But I would ask you to think again, maybe you can’t weld, or don’t know how to use a spanner, but perhaps you are good on the phone, a researcher perhaps, maybe you have links to someone who has skills we need?
Someone has to make a start, perhaps make a list of people who “want to be involved”, perhaps there’s a way of communicating together better than just the odd forum thread? Is there a computer expert that could generate a private “Facebook” page or something? I’m throwing up ideas here, any suggestions, offers of help?
I like the idea you put forward here, but fear this would end up with a committee designed car. We all know a camel is a horse design by a committee. If this was more a talent share system it could work. I offer day dreamer and three wheeled car nut! Does any one need my skills...No. Someone has to make a start, perhaps make a list of people who “want to be involved”, perhaps there’s a way of communicating together better than just the odd forum thread? Is there a computer expert that could generate a private “Facebook” page or something? I’m throwing up ideas here, any suggestions, offers of help?
xRIEx said:
Kit cars need to be more simple, not more complex, and a stripped out sports car is ideal. The MEV Exocet seems to doing very well and for good reason - it's a cheap, simple build, ideal for people new to kit cars and not too sure of themselves.
I want something special in a kit car, something that stands out from the normal things on the road, or a replica of a beautiful car I could never hope to own.
The Exocet links into the same market as the locost idea. Yes it is a simple car, but it still needs a lop of skill to build one. Personal I would keep the much more usable MX5 donor. A car in which you don't get hit by flying stones or other road rubbish, also don't get wet in the rain. It shocks me for many people like exo cars. I want something special in a kit car, something that stands out from the normal things on the road, or a replica of a beautiful car I could never hope to own.
You next asked for something special. A car that stands out and is good looking! Well a GT sports car could be as easy to build as an Exocet if time is spend designing it so it can be put together quickly and easily. The styling needs to be a little 2012 concept/show car, a kit GTI beater for £15000. A car you could live with and use every day.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Friday 3rd August 11:52
Dreamspeed said:
I agree, there are plenty of small, lightweight cars already, let’s do something with a big powerful V6 or V8?
That is just what the UK kit car industry needs. Brit-fire=V8 Brit-flame=V6. I know someone who is look for a more "sporty" replacement for there RX8. They love the car, but as they put it want some with a bit of excitement and still comfortable. Before the RX8 they had a Westfield and a Jaguar XK8 (a bit soft!). I heard they look a 911 recently. Clear Brit-fire/flame would make a good secondhand 911 challenger. By the way have you every seen any one in the rear seats of a 911? They look very small.
Brit-flame could be a 2+2 with a mid-engine V6! Brit-fire a front engine (as far back as possible make it a front/mid)V8 with 2 seats. Both hard to do and get right. I hope the flame would come in at £15000 and Fire at under £25-30,000. What do you all think?
What every design is chosen will need to be easy build, this mean you get every part that is unique to the car in the kit. A list of all the part and there manufactures id part number to build the finished car. A build manual that is like the "for Dummies" books. Plus a tool kit to get you started with the build. As pointed out very few people tinker with cars now, so many may not have the right tool kit to build a car. I know this would very hard to do, a lot of work, but it would help sell the kit, no we would sell the finished car! The build would need to be quick months not years.
dmulally said:
...anyway...
Who else agrees that body design should come first? I think it is sensible. When I built my lotus 23 I started with a body and made everything fit within the constraints. Of which there were plenty with a body that went as high as your knee.
Anyone here have an eye for design? Fuoriserie?
If I was doing one myself I would go for a Toyota 2000gt type look as a 2+2. It's never going to compete with a saloon but the back seat in a porker, e type or my beloved Imp is good enough for kids or the shopping. The 2000gt has daytona, e type, elan type charms for me.
If going for a modern look then I know my limitations and have no eye for such.
Have any of you been following the attempt by Complete Kit Car to design and build a car? Who else agrees that body design should come first? I think it is sensible. When I built my lotus 23 I started with a body and made everything fit within the constraints. Of which there were plenty with a body that went as high as your knee.
Anyone here have an eye for design? Fuoriserie?
If I was doing one myself I would go for a Toyota 2000gt type look as a 2+2. It's never going to compete with a saloon but the back seat in a porker, e type or my beloved Imp is good enough for kids or the shopping. The 2000gt has daytona, e type, elan type charms for me.
If going for a modern look then I know my limitations and have no eye for such.
They start as you would with the body design. Only to find the chassis size (which set the position of the wheels, driver and length/width) is needed to get before the design can be done for real. When you build your 23 you were building a replica, so it body shape was set from day one.
As to the styling ideas, I feel these are great looking cars but all are older designs. The 2+2 seat could be a mistake as a kit car. The styling should be more 2012 concept car/show car.
But I do love this...
Pipper GT.
More than these, but these offer more for the Brit-Flame/Fire designs...
[url]
|http://thumbsnap.com/t8fs3otL[/url]
First you need to know what the chassis under the will be... then use these as the guide to the final design. I understand it is the styling that will sell the car not the chassis, but a bad chassis equals bad handling and low sales! Get the chassis design right first then style it.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 4th August 10:17
TheLastPost said:
What this suggests to me is that the majority of kit car manufacturers have their own engineering ideas and indeed that most are at least equally concerned with achieving individual engineering, not just individual styling.
Even if you manage to encourage more originality of styling, I think this will remain the case - the great majority of the sort of guys who want to manufacture cars want them to be their cars in their entirety, not just a pretty shape hung over someone else's engineering. There will be the occasional exception to this rule, I admit - the likes of Richard Oakes, for example - but not nearly enough, in such a small industry, to sustain concepts like the Spyder modular chassis system as a viable business proposition in its own right.
Systems like Inrekor - which offer flexibility of design rather than modularity - are the way forward, I think, particularly in these days when CAD/CAM techniques allow cheap and rapid prototyping and production.
I feel you are right, in simple term there are more engineers than designers in the kit car industry. Who all like the Seven as it is an engineers car as are the exo chassis car (no body work needed). I am certain there is more that could be done with a Seven if designers were let lose on them. Unlikely to happen. Even if you manage to encourage more originality of styling, I think this will remain the case - the great majority of the sort of guys who want to manufacture cars want them to be their cars in their entirety, not just a pretty shape hung over someone else's engineering. There will be the occasional exception to this rule, I admit - the likes of Richard Oakes, for example - but not nearly enough, in such a small industry, to sustain concepts like the Spyder modular chassis system as a viable business proposition in its own right.
Systems like Inrekor - which offer flexibility of design rather than modularity - are the way forward, I think, particularly in these days when CAD/CAM techniques allow cheap and rapid prototyping and production.
Spyder and Inrekor chassis systems offer a lot to a designer lead car. Adding the new CAD/CAM techniques and cheaper 3D printer and you can see a future in which design sells kit cars. Very high quality kit cars, near production!
For the Brit-Fire/Flame concept the Inrekor looks like the better of these two, but only as it to seem more modern and closer to production quality.
jagnet said:
Looking back at the 50s and 60s, when so many absolutely stunning designs were created with no more than pen, paper and clay, I don't think it's unachievable.
I cannot help add and some very odd looking one. Mostly because of the use of a windscreen that did not fit styling. Still many are great looking cars. 
I believe the fist TVR shape came from using two bonnets of another 50's spiecal one as the bonnet and other reshaped for the rear. Very cleaver. Would any of today kit producers have dared to do this?
Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 5th August 16:24
Any one following the Brit-Flame/Fire should have a look at
www.lusomotors.com/ a Portugal company.
Luso Motors offer a Prototyping. They can produce quarter scale or full scale mock-up, to various finishing stages. These mock-up's could be used to make molds or present at kit car shows to test interest in the car.
They are working on a car very close to some of the ideas we have considered for these cars.
www.lusomotors.com/ a Portugal company.
Luso Motors offer a Prototyping. They can produce quarter scale or full scale mock-up, to various finishing stages. These mock-up's could be used to make molds or present at kit car shows to test interest in the car.
They are working on a car very close to some of the ideas we have considered for these cars.
Nikolai said:
S2Mike said:
.
Oh yes I like the look of that!
I f we are talking mid-engined though, is this gonna be a little uncomfortable for the passengers or a major sound deadening exercise?
This one is front eng, website says its a kit for a 7-esque chassis. Epona was the previous attempt at a 7 coupe, and no-one thought it was worth pursuing. Some of those concept images are nice on that luso site.Oh yes I like the look of that!
I f we are talking mid-engined though, is this gonna be a little uncomfortable for the passengers or a major sound deadening exercise?
Edited by KDIcarmad on Tuesday 7th August 10:35
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