Will TVR ever sell in the USA
Discussion
The killer is that NOBLE is now selling in the USA with a Ford Duratec V6!
I wish TVR would sell in the USA. The thread here has moved over into a Speed 6 reliability discussion. I certainly think that is probably the crux of the issue. TVR can get airbag systems virtually off the shelf--that's not the problem. They aren't required to put in ABS--that's not the problem. Better bumpers--not a big deal. It has to be the engine!
In the meantime good luck to Noble!
I wish TVR would sell in the USA. The thread here has moved over into a Speed 6 reliability discussion. I certainly think that is probably the crux of the issue. TVR can get airbag systems virtually off the shelf--that's not the problem. They aren't required to put in ABS--that's not the problem. Better bumpers--not a big deal. It has to be the engine!
In the meantime good luck to Noble!
WHAT!!! Noble to the USA? I havn't heard that and I did a quicky internet search and couldn't find anything. Where did you hear this?
This is cause for celebration my TVR friends!! If Noble makes it here TVR will really have to consider it. And heck, just take the Noble M12 if TVR never shows up.
The specs of the Noble don't jive with my likings but the guy who makes it must know what works. And it seems to be a blast based on Tiffs test mpg I have.
This is cause for celebration my TVR friends!! If Noble makes it here TVR will really have to consider it. And heck, just take the Noble M12 if TVR never shows up.
The specs of the Noble don't jive with my likings but the guy who makes it must know what works. And it seems to be a blast based on Tiffs test mpg I have.
It seems to me that the discussion here has degenerated into a Speed 6 engine discussion. Since I'm in the USA, NOBLE is using a Ford engine--and has received great reviews, can I boil down the lack of TVR presence in the USA down to the Speed 6 engine and all of the airbags, safety stuff has just hot air????
Noble is selling in the US? Where? From what dealer(s)? Does anyone have any actual information on this? I couldn't find any mention of it on Noble's web site.
Is there any indication that this is anything but wishful thinking?
Forgive the skepticism, but my understanding of the main reason that TVR won't sell in the states is that they can't make enough cars to offset the costs of them setting up NA dealerships. THe question of whether or not they could actually sell enough cars to cover their costs is beside the point. If they can't make enough to begin with then everything else is pretty much moot, isn't it?
Wouldn't Noble suffer from this problem even more than TVR? They have a smaller operation, they make fewer cars than TVR and they have fewer models to sell.
Plus, they'd have exactly the same certification hurdles to overcome. I don't remember Noble providing airbags and while I'm sure they'll probably pass the DOT's crashtesting requirements, someone still has to stump up the cars and the millions of dollars it will cost to get the testing done.
Also, don't think that using a Ford engine is going to earn them any shortcuts on emission testing. They'll still have to go through it from the start especially considering how seriously the engine has been modified.
Hmmm... Maybe someone can convince the American government to waive emission certification for cars that already comply with equivalent EU regs. Given the American view of most things European right now, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Is there any indication that this is anything but wishful thinking?
Forgive the skepticism, but my understanding of the main reason that TVR won't sell in the states is that they can't make enough cars to offset the costs of them setting up NA dealerships. THe question of whether or not they could actually sell enough cars to cover their costs is beside the point. If they can't make enough to begin with then everything else is pretty much moot, isn't it?
Wouldn't Noble suffer from this problem even more than TVR? They have a smaller operation, they make fewer cars than TVR and they have fewer models to sell.
Plus, they'd have exactly the same certification hurdles to overcome. I don't remember Noble providing airbags and while I'm sure they'll probably pass the DOT's crashtesting requirements, someone still has to stump up the cars and the millions of dollars it will cost to get the testing done.
Also, don't think that using a Ford engine is going to earn them any shortcuts on emission testing. They'll still have to go through it from the start especially considering how seriously the engine has been modified.
Hmmm... Maybe someone can convince the American government to waive emission certification for cars that already comply with equivalent EU regs. Given the American view of most things European right now, I wouldn't hold my breath.
The company doing this is called 1g Racing and they claim they are the exclusive US distributor. They took out a half-page ad on page 153 of the July 2003 issue of Road and Track (Ferrari Enzo on the cover). Tel. number: 513.738.0828.
They claim they are bringing in cars without engine and tranny, which allows them to classify the shipment as an "assemblage of parts" rather than as a car. Then, they sell you these parts (body, chassis, etc.), as well as an engine and tranny. They will also provide assistance in finding someone who can put it together, if you need it. $73,000 end to end.
They say it can be registered as a kit car anywhere except in California, where it cannot meet emissions requirements. However, they have a workaround...they advise you to claim residence in another state and use some (rented PO Box or vacation home) address there to register the car. This is completely out of touch with the reality of California's Nazi-like police, which are all too familiar with the "out of state registration" trick. It's an easy way to lose your car and end up in a lot of hot water.
In the rest of the US, your luck may vary both in titling and registering the vehicle, and in proving that it is emissions compliant. If you have an accident and get sued, they will be required to prove that your car conforms to the US safety regulations known as FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) if they are deemed to be the manufacturer.
NHTSA is taking a very dim view of this, claiming that it's not an "arm's length" transaction and therefore Noble are indeed considered the manufacturer, Typically, with kit cars, the end consumer is considered the manufacturer. According to NHTSA, if found guilty, Noble would be looking at a fine "not to exceed $15,000,000." Ouch.
>> Edited by tvrfreak on Sunday 6th July 07:34
They claim they are bringing in cars without engine and tranny, which allows them to classify the shipment as an "assemblage of parts" rather than as a car. Then, they sell you these parts (body, chassis, etc.), as well as an engine and tranny. They will also provide assistance in finding someone who can put it together, if you need it. $73,000 end to end.
They say it can be registered as a kit car anywhere except in California, where it cannot meet emissions requirements. However, they have a workaround...they advise you to claim residence in another state and use some (rented PO Box or vacation home) address there to register the car. This is completely out of touch with the reality of California's Nazi-like police, which are all too familiar with the "out of state registration" trick. It's an easy way to lose your car and end up in a lot of hot water.
In the rest of the US, your luck may vary both in titling and registering the vehicle, and in proving that it is emissions compliant. If you have an accident and get sued, they will be required to prove that your car conforms to the US safety regulations known as FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) if they are deemed to be the manufacturer.
NHTSA is taking a very dim view of this, claiming that it's not an "arm's length" transaction and therefore Noble are indeed considered the manufacturer, Typically, with kit cars, the end consumer is considered the manufacturer. According to NHTSA, if found guilty, Noble would be looking at a fine "not to exceed $15,000,000." Ouch.
>> Edited by tvrfreak on Sunday 6th July 07:34
tvrfreak said:
The company doing this is called 1g Racing and they claim they are the exclusive US distributor. They took out a half-page ad on page 153 of the July 2003 issue of Road and Track (Ferrari Enzo on the cover). Tel. number: 513.738.0828.
They claim they are bringing in cars without engine and tranny, which allows them to classify the shipment as an "assemblage of parts" rather than as a car. Then, they sell you these parts (body, chassis, etc.), as well as an engine and tranny. They will also provide assistance in finding someone who can put it together, if you need it. $73,000 end to end.
They say it can be registered as a kit car anywhere except in California, where it cannot meet emissions requirements. However, they have a workaround...they advise you to claim residence in another state and use some (rented PO Box or vacation home) address there to register the car. This is completely out of touch with the reality of California's Nazi-like police, which are all too familiar with the "out of state registration" trick. It's an easy way to lose your car and end up in a lot of hot water.
In the rest of the US, your luck may vary both in titling and registering the vehicle, and in proving that it is emissions compliant. If you have an accident and get sued, they will be required to prove that your car conforms to the US safety regulations known as FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) if they are deemed to be the manufacturer.
NHTSA is taking a very dim view of this, claiming that it's not an "arm's length" transaction and therefore Noble are indeed considered the manufacturer, Typically, with kit cars, the end consumer is considered the manufacturer. According to NHTSA, if found guilty, Noble would be looking at a fine "not to exceed $15,000,000." Ouch.
>> Edited by tvrfreak on Sunday 6th July 07:34
Yeah, I stumbled across their web site this weekend when I was looking at American kit-car manufacturers. I say good luck to 'em!
They'll probably sell a few to a handful of hard-core car nuts.
Re: fines and legal stuff. I know $15 million is a lot but I don't see how any US agency can make a case against Noble. What you said sounds like simple sabre-rattling to me. If Noble decides to make their cars available as kits as a matter of company policy, what could the Feds do? Plus, Noble has the added advantage of using a Ford engine. Why wouldn't 1G just get the original block and transaxle from an American source and then add all the special goodies after?
I'm not sure what jurisdiction they have over Noble anyway, 1G is another story but how would the Feds go after Noble when they don't do business in the USA at all?
Actually, I'm surprised TVR hasn't taken this route. It would let them sell a few cars to American fans without the expense of setting up a formal dealership infrastructure.
re: having multiple residences and losing a car. I've never heard of anyone having a car confiscated by the police because they had it registered to an out-of-state address. I used to live in Orange County and I knew a few people who registered their cars in Nevada because it was so much cheaper to do. Granted they had actual homes in Nevada and not just PO boxes. As long as you can prove residence in another state, I don't see that California cops can say "boo!" to you - as long as you put enough mileage on the car so that you can convince them that you drive back and forth to Nevada a lot. ;->
Boy I hate bureaucrats sometimes. California is crawling with repulsive SUVs, each one belching far more pollution that an M12 ever could even running at the red line with two misfiring cylinders.
Then there are all the cars from the 60s and early 70s that aren't subject to any emission control at all with huge V8 engines and neolithic carbeurator technology... But no! We have to keep a handful of M12s, TVRs and Lotus Elise out of the US because they might spew a few PPM more NOx than a brand-new 1.3L Hyundai Speck.
Yeah, makes perfect sense.
Jon,
good post. I agree with most of your points. I do know that California has confiscated a LOT of cars with out of state plates. The actual law is that if a car is here for more than 10 days, it is subject to California registration fees. And with the current budget crisis, they pursue even parking tickets with a vengeance.
Legally, if 1g Racing is found liable, then depending on their relationship with Noble, they too can be found to have contributory liability, whether they do business in the US or not. I also don't think that NHTSA has the teeth to pursue all this, so it probably is sabre rattling as well. 1g Racing is doing exactly what kit car sellers do.
As for why TVR has not gone this route, most manufacturers try to get away from the kit-car image and establish a brand identity of their own. TVRs already suffer from a kit-car image from the general public. Not sure they would want to be seen like this, increased sales or not.
Agree with you on the SUVs, pollution, etc.
>> Edited by faisalkhan on Sunday 6th July 16:40
>> Edited by faisalkhan on Sunday 6th July 16:43
good post. I agree with most of your points. I do know that California has confiscated a LOT of cars with out of state plates. The actual law is that if a car is here for more than 10 days, it is subject to California registration fees. And with the current budget crisis, they pursue even parking tickets with a vengeance.
Legally, if 1g Racing is found liable, then depending on their relationship with Noble, they too can be found to have contributory liability, whether they do business in the US or not. I also don't think that NHTSA has the teeth to pursue all this, so it probably is sabre rattling as well. 1g Racing is doing exactly what kit car sellers do.
As for why TVR has not gone this route, most manufacturers try to get away from the kit-car image and establish a brand identity of their own. TVRs already suffer from a kit-car image from the general public. Not sure they would want to be seen like this, increased sales or not.
Agree with you on the SUVs, pollution, etc.
>> Edited by faisalkhan on Sunday 6th July 16:40
>> Edited by faisalkhan on Sunday 6th July 16:43
faisalkhan said:
Jon,
good post. I agree with most of your points. I do know that California has confiscated a LOT of cars with out of state plates. The actual law is that if a car is here for more than 10 days, it is subject to California registration fees. And with the current budget crisis, they pursue even parking tickets with a vengeance.
Yeah, whenever a government screws up as badly as California's did with the engery fiasco, either they have admit they were wrong and try to fix things or else take drastic action....
Naturaly, they did something drastic.
I like P.J. O'Rourke's quote about how giving money and power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
faisalkhan said:
Legally, if 1g Racing is found liable, then depending on their relationship with Noble, they too can be found to have contributory liability, whether they do business in the US or not. I also don't think that NHTSA has the teeth to pursue all this, so it probably is sabre rattling as well. 1g Racing is doing exactly what kit car sellers do.
Of course, if Noble decides they want to sell the cars as kits in the US, then they are perfectly at liberty to do so. And I don't see how the DOT or the NHTSA can get in their face for doing so. Well, they can try, but I don't see how they can actually succeed in any but a baseless, nuisance suit.
Funny how so many politicians like to yammer on about how American is such a free country and yet it seems that everwhere you turn, there's a bureaucrat telling you how to live your life. America is supposed to be the land of opportunity and the place where the guy who builds the best mousetrap gets the sale but try selling anything that isn't made by some giant conglomerate... eeech!
faisalkhan said:
As for why TVR has not gone this route, most manufacturers try to get away from the kit-car image and establish a brand identity of their own. TVRs already suffer from a kit-car image from the general public. Not sure they would want to be seen like this, increased sales or not.
I see what you mean from an abstract marketing standpoint. Still, I don't see how it would actually hurt TVR's sales in Britain and Europe for them to make their cars available as kits for sale in North America. I also don't think it would hurt sales in North America either. Can you really imagine a North American TVR customer saying "Well, I would buy one but I don't like the fact that it was assembled here instead of in Blackpool"?
Are they afraid that Brits would go to American to buy the kit, have it built and then shipped back to the UK? Why? To avoid VAT? That's a long run for a short slide.
Yes, as they love to say here, "freedom isn't free"!!!! Whatever. If you're a conservative bore, life here is pretty good.
As for TVR doing one thing or another, I don't want to speculate on their reasons. I like their product and I wish them well. It's too bad they are not sold in the US. Like everyone else, I hope that one day (soon) they will be.
Rgds,
Faisal.
PS. No need to quote my posts within yours...they're right below.
>> Edited by faisalkhan on Monday 7th July 00:48
As for TVR doing one thing or another, I don't want to speculate on their reasons. I like their product and I wish them well. It's too bad they are not sold in the US. Like everyone else, I hope that one day (soon) they will be.
Rgds,
Faisal.
PS. No need to quote my posts within yours...they're right below.
>> Edited by faisalkhan on Monday 7th July 00:48
Great exchange guys!
I have to admit that I am mystified by Peter Wheeler's lack of push into the USA--especially when one considers the European economy is worse off than the USA. Regarding dealer infrastructure, I think TVR could work with dealers selling Lotus, Panoz etc. to distribute their product. I think the real reason they have not made it here is that the reliability is not up to spec...
I have to admit that I am mystified by Peter Wheeler's lack of push into the USA--especially when one considers the European economy is worse off than the USA. Regarding dealer infrastructure, I think TVR could work with dealers selling Lotus, Panoz etc. to distribute their product. I think the real reason they have not made it here is that the reliability is not up to spec...
harley said:
I think the real reason they have not made it here is that the reliability is not up to spec...
Oh not this again
There is lots of reasons TVR hasn't gone to the US, there is safety issues, and and engine emission laws and also setting up a dealer network, if you forget about the last 2 for the moment and just focus on the safety issuse then you can see they have a big job ahead of them if they want to sell in America Airbags
TVR's dont come with airbags, very obvious but they are a legal requirement in the US. as stated in safety standard 201
Bumpers
Also the 5 mph bumpers needed on American cars (Standard 581) Remember the MGB with rubber bumpers for the US market? or the Triumph TR7, the Later Lamborghini Countach or earlier Lotus Esprits and even the Mclaren F1 had to have ugly bumpers added and the lights changed, which leads me to....
Lights
Okay I can't find a specific standard for these but lots of British cars needed thier lights changed to be sold across the pond, Land Rover Defenders, Mclaren F1's, E-type Jaguar, probably a few more but I can't think of them. Nobody knows if the TVR lights would comply with US law regarding size/brightness/position
Crash Testing
Okay I'm not to sure of this, but I think TVR use Small production rulings (called Very Low Volume (VLV) I think) to sell cars without having to properly crash test them, this limits the number of cars they can make, so you get limited editions or minor changes so it can be classed as a new model and so TVR can carry on selling them without the expense of crash testing. (I could be VERY wrong on this one)
Then of Course there is all the emissions testing to get the speed 6 engine federalized for the US which I'm gussing will cost a lot of money...
But there is a ray of hope, manufacturers can get a temporary exemption from some of these standards if the cost of making theier cars meet the standards would cause "substantial economic hardship" stated in Standard 555
So there you go, thats some of the hurdles TVR would have to jump through to get thier cars "federalized" for sale in the US.
Well I hope thats made some thing clearer
'Segg
KoenigseggCC said:
Bumpers
Also the 5 mph bumpers needed on American cars (Standard 581) Remember the MGB with rubber bumpers for the US market? or the Triumph TR7, the Later Lamborghini Countach or earlier Lotus Esprits and even the Mclaren F1 had to have ugly bumpers added and the lights changed...
'Segg
'Segg - care to explain the Miata, Beetle and and current 996 to me then?
When it comes to importing TVRs - there would be issues (no doubt), but I suspect they would be ways around all of them that would allow a number of current model TVRs to be sold in the US. However TVR is a privately held company owned by a rather eccentric Briton who for one reason or another (be it financial, logistical or just because he doesn't much like anything beyond the shores of Blighty) does not seem to be in any hurry to sell TVRs in America. Given this, there is really no point in wading through the whys and why-nots.
Paul said:Hi Paul,
'Segg - care to explain the Miata, Beetle and and current 996 to me then?
Well I have no idea about the Miata or the 996, but I found a PDF document that says the Euro spec and the US spec have different bumper brackets
A lot of big name car makers now produce "global cars" that can (with a few minor changes) be sold virtually anywhere in the world (Ford Focus for example) www.highwaysafety.org/srpdfs/sr3703.pdf
Paul said:Your right, but I was just getting a little tired of the "why don't/won't TVR sell in the U.S.?" and "How did Noble beat TVR to america?" type posts, so I decided to give a few reasons why they aren't already for sale in America other than the "they're not reliable enough"
there is really no point in wading through the whys and why-nots.
Sorry if I came off sounding like a smartass
'Segg
(I have been reading a little into the new "show and display" laws for America, whould it be possible to bring in a TVR that way?
)'Segg,
sorry, no, TVRs don't qualify for Show and Display exemption. The Elise S1 didn't, either, despite a very impressive and persuasive application filed by a NASA engineer. His car is now sitting in a customs warehouse, and will be exported.
If a car is currently in production, and is petrol powered, you will be beating your head against a wall if you try to get it approved for Show and Display. A decision on any car is made by a committee of just five people at NHTSA, and not one of them feels that TVRs should be allowed in under Show and Display.
Show and Display exemption status is a mixed blessing, anyways. Once approved, a car must meet federal EPA regulations before being allowed on the road. This is often next to impossible without substantially changing the nature of the engine. And the testing is very time-consuming and expensive. A CLK-GTR was approved for Show and Display and then held up by the EPA for four years. It was only approved after an SL600 engine was put in.
As for the Miata and Porsche bumpers, the steel and foam crash absorbent materials are on the inside. TVR could do this too. I constantly hear rumours that TVR are in talks with this party or that. When the right factors converge, I am sure that they will be sold here.
>> Edited by tvrfreak on Tuesday 8th July 21:59
sorry, no, TVRs don't qualify for Show and Display exemption. The Elise S1 didn't, either, despite a very impressive and persuasive application filed by a NASA engineer. His car is now sitting in a customs warehouse, and will be exported.
If a car is currently in production, and is petrol powered, you will be beating your head against a wall if you try to get it approved for Show and Display. A decision on any car is made by a committee of just five people at NHTSA, and not one of them feels that TVRs should be allowed in under Show and Display.
Show and Display exemption status is a mixed blessing, anyways. Once approved, a car must meet federal EPA regulations before being allowed on the road. This is often next to impossible without substantially changing the nature of the engine. And the testing is very time-consuming and expensive. A CLK-GTR was approved for Show and Display and then held up by the EPA for four years. It was only approved after an SL600 engine was put in.
As for the Miata and Porsche bumpers, the steel and foam crash absorbent materials are on the inside. TVR could do this too. I constantly hear rumours that TVR are in talks with this party or that. When the right factors converge, I am sure that they will be sold here.
>> Edited by tvrfreak on Tuesday 8th July 21:59
Hi tvrfreak,
I assume you're the same one from www.automotiveforums.com on the F1 section? if so you have some GREAT photos of the Konigsegg factory, well done!
About the bumpers, I was thinking more of the T350, it doesn't seem to have any bumpers at all, if you look at a Miata, or a Beetle or a 996, they all seem to have a split bumper thing that can be removed if damaged, but the T350 is just all bodywork...
I wasn't sure if TVR would qualify for S&D exemption status, its a pity they dont then again if they were exempt I dont think many people could stick to the 2500 miles allowed a year 
'Segg
I assume you're the same one from www.automotiveforums.com on the F1 section? if so you have some GREAT photos of the Konigsegg factory, well done!
About the bumpers, I was thinking more of the T350, it doesn't seem to have any bumpers at all, if you look at a Miata, or a Beetle or a 996, they all seem to have a split bumper thing that can be removed if damaged, but the T350 is just all bodywork...
I wasn't sure if TVR would qualify for S&D exemption status, its a pity they dont
then again if they were exempt I dont think many people could stick to the 2500 miles allowed a year 'Segg
KoenigseggCC said:
Your right, but I was just getting a little tired of the "why don't/won't TVR sell in the U.S.?" and "How did Noble beat TVR to america?" type posts, so I decided to give a few reasons why they aren't already for sale in America other than the "they're not reliable enough"
Sorry if I came off sounding like a smartass
'Segg
'Segg - don't worry - you weren't sounding like a smart-ass and we both agree that the "why aren't they here yet?" debate is getting a little tired.
As a Brit in the States, I'm missing the roar of "unreliable" TVRs - but I simply can't justify the cost & complexity of importing one for occasional use in Manhattan (the stock-market over the last 3 years has eaten up my Tuscan-fund).
[hushed-tones-on]
However, one possibility that I'm exploring with my lawyers is to bring a couple of personal imports over to NYC and hire them out rather like Bespokes does in the UK. If I can work out the legalities and liability issues, I may be able to bring a little bit of TVR to the East-coast. Too early to have any confidence, but I just thought I'd try to give back something to the 'ol USA...
[hushed-tones-off]
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