The facts...McLaren/Ferrrari/FIA

[castrolcraig]

flemke....

this has been posted in the thread "the maclaren thing keeps on rolling" but..


would you please consider standing as fia president??

a totally un biased mclaren owning person such as yourself would be the perfect antidote to those tifosi rigged inside ferrari international assistance headquarters

we will all chip in to fund your campaign,

ill start with whatever ive got in me wallet............


oh shit, £7.20 and a out of date credit card....

in all seriousnes though flemke what would your solution be in regards the current situation

bomb modena??

assasinate darth todt destroy his empire??

or just give mole-sly the boot and replace him with someone who has balls......

Edited by castrolcraig on Tuesday 18th September 16:46

[NightDriver]

flemke said:

The FIA have fallen very far short of having proved anything. As jacobyte points out, the FIA have admitted that their "evidence" is very incomplete, and their standard of proof far below that of a proper court.
In contrast, we do know that earlier this year two guys were convicted by a proper court, and given prison sentences, for having secured and abused confidential Ferrari information whilst they were Toyota employees.
That would be industrial espionage, and if anyone is wondering whether Mosley has a double standard, he need look no further than at the fact that Toyota suffered no penalty whatsoever for the criminal acts of those employees, whilst McLaren, which had a fraction as much culpability, were crucified for acts that appear to have been entirely immaterial to the season's results.

That is the thing which, to me, makes this seem so unfair and as if Mclaren are being bullied for building a quicker car.

Funny thing with the Toyota case was that they stole the equivalent of over 10 thousand pages of coding for their wind tunnel, they then integrated this into the toyota software and then actually refused to give it back to ferrari!!! Stating, that if they gave all the software back to ferrari, ferrari would end up with the advantage as toyota had done alot of development on it!!!

Can anyone shed any light on why Mclaren deserved such a harsh punishment yet Toyota can get of scot free. Surely there needs to be some kind of consistency in the way the FIA hand out there penalties, it cant be one rule if your doing well but another if your midfield..

and nearly forgot, FLEMKE FOR FIA PRESIDENT

Edited by NightDriver on Tuesday 18th September 17:07

[Conian]

Oo another McLaren thread...
and more minimalizing of what McLaren did (and didnt do)

It wasn't just 3 people who had the data and were naughty...
3 managers have been named who knew about the documents, they all said GET RID OF IT but no one made sure it was done
Alonso wouldnt have gotten the data from Pedro and entered it into the simulators on his own... others knew.

This post does not identify me as for or against Mclaren or ferrari.
I will openly admit that I want Massa to win as i admire the work he did following Schuey and think he deserves it before he gets shunted down to a slower team.

McLaren were naughty, they got caught, Ron does seem to be innocent cos I think anyone who knew about the ferrari data would probably have been to scared to admit it to him.

[DJC]

2priestsferrari said:

jesusbuiltmycar said:

2priestsferrari said:

Ultimately the company is responsible for its employees - without which you could set them off on illegal errands and when they get caught just deny everything and claim they were acting on their own.

I thought that Stepney was one of ferraris employees??? So how come they are not accountable for his actions?

Well they are but it was Ferrari making the complaint and I'm sure he will be dealt with in Italy in due course.

What would you expect to happen? Ferrari docked all their points for giving their technical stuff to McLaren?

...er actually more like laughed out of court for letting one of their employees garner all the information he likes and pass it onto whoever he so wishes in his spare time.

Im sorry I find the whole episode a farce and all because Ferrari couldnt keep their own house in order. I agree with Rude Boy, had Coughlan, Pedro and Alonso been working for me, Id have personally booted them off my workshite so hard, the lot of them wouldnt have landed till they hit Dover. Id have rung the Chairman of Santander pesonally and invited him to utter one word of protest about his actions when weighing in mind the ramifications of condoning the actions and intentions of an employee with regardes to blackmailing their employer.

A bloody farce all round.

Actually sod it, I wouldnt have acted as professionally and rationally as above...Id have just lamped Alonso on the spot in full view of the entire paddock and told him to sling his hook. Then Id have fired Pedro and then left Lewis in absolutely no doubt as to what would happen to his arse if he pulled anymore uppity new boy on the block crap in my team again.

[Nick_F]

Unfortunately it appears that Max has ruled that McLaren will be carpeted again if they 'impede' Alonso's pursuit of the WDC crown.

So none of your booting him around the country.

[2priestsferrari]

flemke said:

2priestsferrari said:

Not at all. If you can't see that the FIA came down hard on McLaren to stop the spread of this kind of thing to others then what more is to say!

Flemke then goes on to try and align it to the employment of ex-engineers but of course it is totally different.

If this isn't industrial spying (can't spell espionage!) then please explain what is..

It's totally different because:

- when the information left Ferrari, it was because one of their employees gave it away to another team, but,
- when the information left McLaren, it was because their competitors paid money to attract McLaren people and the inside McLaren knowledge that they could bring with them.

So it's wrong to accept something that's volunteered to you for no quid pro quo, but fine to pay someone to bring (a lot more of) it to you?


You spelled "espionage" fine.
The FIA have fallen very far short of having proved anything. As jacobyte points out, the FIA have admitted that their "evidence" is very incomplete, and their standard of proof far below that of a proper court.
In contrast, we do know that earlier this year two guys were convicted by a proper court, and given prison sentences, for having secured and abused confidential Ferrari information whilst they were Toyota employees.
That would be industrial espionage, and if anyone is wondering whether Mosley has a double standard, he need look no further than at the fact that Toyota suffered no penalty whatsoever for the criminal acts of those employees, whilst McLaren, which had a fraction as much culpability, were crucified for acts that appear to have been entirely immaterial to the season's results.

I'm sorry but you are missing the fact that the F1 title is an FIA formula. So that is that, you sign up to it then you sign up to the rules of it - as they make them, like them or not.

Its like all those English football Premiere teams have to wear the little logos on the shirts, etc. Because those are the commercial undertakings of being in that league.

So on the basis that the FIA can do whatever is in there right within the context of the championship if Ferrari moan more than others then so be it. If McLaren have been wronged in some way or Toyota (whatever) then let them put the case to the FIA.

However on the matter of employees leaving one organisation and joining another is completely different and one that as you have pointed out can be taken to a proper court of law and secondly can be in some way controlled by the original employers contract.

As you said the FIA took no action against Toyota yet you kind of imply that the FIA have some kind of loyalty to Ferrari and all other must suffer; well by your own words that doesn't stack up.

As for being prosecuted in a proper court - I think you'll find that this is a matter of time before NS and MC are brought before a court.

[Joe911]

10 Pence Short said:

I note that around half the fine imposed on McLaren will be redistributed to the other teams.

Is it not that case (I could be wrong) that "around half the fine" (60%) will go to other teams because they will be moved up the constructors championship and thus get more money (rather than some kind of fair distribution)? So McLaren's fine will mostly go to Ferrari - who need it least, and to the other stronger teams, with the poorer teams in need of help getting little (or maybe none).

The other half of the money (40%) will go to projects around the world to help motorsport, I understand.

Edited by Joe911 on Tuesday 18th September 17:45

[Joe911]

2priestsferrari said:

Whilst I think it is the current fashion to bash Ferrari, FIA and Alonso right now - what McLaren did was a disgrace and there is no way to deal with them any differently.

What Coughlan did was a disgrace. I would see him as a rogue employee (like Stepney) and not representing McLaren (i.e. Ron etc.) who I suspect did not know. Should a whole company be punished so severely for the actions of one tt?

[DJC]

Nick_F said:

Unfortunately it appears that Max has ruled that McLaren will be carpeted again if they 'impede' Alonso's pursuit of the WDC crown.

So none of your booting him around the country.

I think Ron has been remarkly restrained with regards to Max. Id have definately lamped him yrs ago! In fact I secretly hope the antipathy really stems from Ron giving Max a good wedgie back when they both kids.

[jacobyte]

2priestsferrari said:

that doesn't stack up.

2pf,

It stacks up perfectly well: McLaren were beating Ferrari in the Constructors, and Ferrari have been desperate to win something, by hook or by crook. The points deduction in Hungary wasn't enough to guarantee them the Constructors, so they had to think of something else. If it was Toyota that had been beating Ferrari, you can bet your cotton-picking socks that they would have been in the same situation that McLaren are now in.

Furthermore, as Joe911 says, it shouldn't be about the teams, but about the individuals.

Regarding the FIA loyalty to Ferrari: just remember that every other team has to pay millions to Ferrari, just so that they are allowed compete in F1.

[Bitter'n'Twisted]

IMO McLaren were extremely lucky indeed.
It's only becuase it's nearing the end of the season that they got away with
the actions of several of their team members so lightly.
Had it been April/May when this had come out, they would have been given
perhaps a 2/3/4 race ban. Which, looking back, would have meant Ferrari would probably win both constructors and drivers titles.

The FIA didn't want to damage the sport further by wrecking the build up to the end of the season, and so only gave McLaren the penalty they got.

How people can moan about the FIA being in Ferraris pocket is beyond me.
Wasn't it the FIA that continually changed rules between roughly 1995
and 2005 to effectively stop Ferrari and Schumacher winning everything?

[flemke]

castrolcraig said:

would you please consider standing...?
...in all seriousnes though flemke what would your solution be in regards the current situation

That is very kind of you to suggest, Craig, and Nightdriver.
If in a fantasy world I were to be given such an opportunity, I don't know that I could do a decent job. For one thing, I am biased, and not sure that I could ever shake free of that fact. Even if, intellectually, I were able to distance myself entirely from my preferences, the fact that people would know that I had had preferences would taint my credibility - sort of the way that Mosley has no credibility, except that that fact doesn't seem to bother him.
For another thing, that job entails huge amounts of posturing, glad-handing, politicising, scheming and obfuscation. As do many of us, I detest such activities, although they seem to be meat and drink to the present incumbent.

What I would have done would have been to fine McLaren a meaningful amount - say, $20M - for having employed a guy who operated in too grey an area, with the money going to a worthy charity - of which the FIA's own bank account is obviously not an example. I would have taken away no points, because there is no evidence of any performance advantage or effect on the results of the competition.
I would have looked at giving Toyota the same sort of penalty, even though their case appears to have had more team culpability, a real performance advantage, and less tenuous guilt-by-association.
I would also have rescinded Ferrari's win in Australia, as it was achieved with the illegal floor - which piece of information touched off this charade.

[flemke]

Conian said:

It wasn't just 3 people who had the data and were naughty...
3 managers have been named who knew about the documents, they all said GET RID OF IT but no one made sure it was done
Alonso wouldnt have gotten the data from Pedro and entered it into the simulators on his own... others knew.

I'm not sure how one would have made sure that the documents had been destroyed - even by witnessing their physical destruction; copies could have been made (ironically).
For most people, including engineers and other introverted types, doing the right thing seems to be enough. They are too naive to give greater weight to being seen to do the right thing, even when one has done the wrong thing. It's that pesky appearance-over-reality thing again.
I've no doubt that someone like Jonathan Neale, who had a lot more to do with MP4-22 than Coughlan did, believed that he had done his job of acting honestly and fairly by not himself looking at the data, not using any of the data on the car, and telling Coughlan to get rid of it. To him, I strongly suspect, the reality of no influence was what mattered.
He could not have anticipated how Mosley's personal vendetta against Dennis would overwhelm the legitimacy of his team's own engineering.

As for who put the data on the McLaren simulator, AIUI, no one did - neither a driver (of course, as you say) nor an engineer.
In fact, it was interesting that, in the WMSC verdict, they quoted a message for FA to PdlR regarding the alleged Ferrari weight distribution in which Alonso replied, "...I don't know either whether it's 100% reliable...", which suggests that both drivers considered the number they had been given to be wrong or, at best, questionable and of little value.

[flemke]

2priestsferrari said:

So on the basis that the FIA can do whatever is in there right within the context of the championship if Ferrari moan more than others then so be it. If McLaren have been wronged in some way or Toyota (whatever) then let them put the case to the FIA.

Even private organisations are barred from certain rulings and dictates, if those acts are decided by a real court to have violated an overarching civil or criminal law.

In any event, my friend, we're not debating whether the FIA or the real courts have authority here.
We're talking about what seems reasonable and proper, and the fact that the FIA verdict and its justification do not seem reasonable and proper to many people.
We are using the example of the evidentiary standard that has evolved over a millennium in constitutions and in case law, and which civilised peoples impose on judicial enquiries. That standard is surely wiser and more durable than whatever a gang of cronies cooked up in some back room in Paris.

Even if one accepted that the FIA could rule however it wanted, whenever it wanted, that would not make their ruling necessarily right.

2priestsferrari said:

However on the matter of employees leaving one organisation and joining another is completely different and one that as you have pointed out can be taken to a proper court of law and secondly can be in some way controlled by the original employers contract.

As you said the FIA took no action against Toyota yet you kind of imply that the FIA have some kind of loyalty to Ferrari and all other must suffer; well by your own words that doesn't stack up.

Not so.
The driving issue here was not Ferrari, it was Ron Dennis. Dennis has been the FIA's most outspoken critic, he was at the heart of the GPMA effort to take F1 away from FIA jurisdiction, and he more than anyone else symbolises the constructors' independence (such as it is), and challenge to its power. It is hardly a wonder that a small-minded, petty, hateful weasel would seek to run a knife into him.
The fact that Ferrari was the "victim" may have given extra impetus to some of the WMSC's motivations, but this affair was not about them.

2priestsferrari said:

As for being prosecuted in a proper court - I think you'll find that this is a matter of time before NS and MC are brought before a court.

Sure, and perhaps rightly so, but their legal culpability should not bear disproportionately on their teams.

[flemke]

Bitter'n'Twisted said:

How people can moan about the FIA being in Ferraris pocket is beyond me.
Wasn't it the FIA that continually changed rules between roughly 1995
and 2005 to effectively stop Ferrari and Schumacher winning everything?

This would comprise the FIA's separate decisions to ban:

- continuously variable transmission,
- use of beryllium,
- torque-bias diff,
- fiddle brake,
- energy recapture,
- mass damper,
- Michelin front tyres...?

All of which a rival team was developing or using effectively, and Ferrari was not?

[Leithen]

flemke said:

Conian said:

It wasn't just 3 people who had the data and were naughty...
3 managers have been named who knew about the documents, they all said GET RID OF IT but no one made sure it was done
Alonso wouldnt have gotten the data from Pedro and entered it into the simulators on his own... others knew.

I'm not sure how one would have made sure that the documents had been destroyed - even by witnessing their physical destruction; copies could have been made (ironically).
For most people, including engineers and other introverted types, doing the right thing seems to be enough. They are too naive to give greater weight to being seen to do the right thing, even when one has done the wrong thing. It's that pesky appearance-over-reality thing again.
I've no doubt that someone like Jonathan Neale, who had a lot more to do with MP4-22 than Coughlan did, believed that he had done his job of acting honestly and fairly by not himself looking at the data, not using any of the data on the car, and telling Coughlan to get rid of it. To him, I strongly suspect, the reality of no influence was what mattered.
He could not have anticipated how Mosley's personal vendetta against Dennis would overwhelm the legitimacy of his team's own engineering.

As for who put the data on the McLaren simulator, AIUI, no one did - neither a driver (of course, as you say) nor an engineer.
In fact, it was interesting that, in the WMSC verdict, they quoted a message for FA to PdlR regarding the alleged Ferrari weight distribution in which Alonso replied, "...I don't know either whether it's 100% reliable...", which suggests that both drivers considered the number they had been given to be wrong or, at best, questionable and of little value.

The only individual who did the "right thing" was the copy shop employee. McLaren had the opportunity to question Ferrari's floor design and make Ferrari look bloody stupid by informing the FIA of Stepney's approaches. Had they done this, they could still today be portraying themselves as whiter than white as well as leading both championships with next years budget looking happily healthy.

Instead they decided to leave Stepney to his own devices and install "firewalls" to distance themselves from the affair once they had drawn whatever direct benefit they could from the leaked information. So much for the moral high ground. Stark contrast to Ron Dennis's own actions after Hungary when he did contact the FIA.

There's a lot of bleating about about precedent here and the bias of the FIA toward Ferrari and Mosely's agenda against Ron Dennis. All may be true - but that does not change McLaren's culpability one iota in this instance.

In a sport where the governing body is meant to promote a fair and level playing field, and especially when one of the participants likes to portray itself as upholders of such values, for the said same team to cynically keep quiet about the receipt of the most sensitive information of it's closest competitors, from a current employee of that team no less, is appalling.

Motor Racing isn't golf, but by God, it could take some lessons from the standards the competitors are held to.

This years "Championships" ought to be declared null and void - the potential victors of both, have only themselves to blame.

[flemke]

Leithen said:

The only individual who did the "right thing" was the copy shop employee. McLaren had the opportunity to question Ferrari's floor design and make Ferrari look bloody stupid by informing the FIA of Stepney's approaches. Had they done this, they could still today be portraying themselves as whiter than white as well as leading both championships with next years budget looking happily healthy.

Instead they decided to leave Stepney to his own devices and install "firewalls" to distance themselves from the affair once they had drawn whatever direct benefit they could from the leaked information. So much for the moral high ground. Stark contrast to Ron Dennis's own actions after Hungary when he did contact the FIA.

How would that have worked in practice?
Tell the FIA that they suspect that the floor is illegal, when the FIA have shown (or at least McLaren believed that they have shown) systematic bias in favour of the alleged miscreant? Why would one have confidence in the ensuing decision?
If one went to the regulator, all they would have to do is to reply, "You are wrong. We've checked it, and it's legal." What would you do then?
Why not, instead, ask whether one could use the illegal system oneself? In that, McLaren put the FIA in the position in which they had to ban it.

It is very difficult for me to grasp why, if a rival tells you that his team is doing something that is illegal and hurting you, you would be obliged to go straight to the regulator. Why, if you yourself were the one who is being damaged by the cheating, would you have that obligation?
One would have the option of complaining to the regulator, but there should be neither a regulatory nor a moral requirement

Leithen said:

There's a lot of bleating about about precedent here and the bias of the FIA toward Ferrari and Mosely's agenda against Ron Dennis. All may be true - but that does not change McLaren's culpability one iota in this instance.

Quite so.
The flip side is equally true - the verdict does not increase McLaren's actual culpability one iota either.

Leithen said:

In a sport where the governing body is meant to promote a fair and level playing field, and especially when one of the participants likes to portray itself as upholders of such values, for the said same team to cynically keep quiet about the receipt of the most sensitive information of it's closest competitors, from a current employee of that team no less, is appalling.

Are you seriously implying that McLaren should have behaved more "respectfully", shall we say, because of the leadership example that has been set by the FIA in its setting and enforcing a "fair and level playing field"?
I'd say you could make a stronger argument by saying that McLaren should have been more circumspect as that would have provided an example from which the regulator ought to learn, despite the fact that over the years the regulator has not seemed to be open to enlightenment.

Leithen said:

Motor Racing isn't golf, but by God, it could take some lessons from the standards the competitors are held to.

True.
Most walks of life would benefit, as would we all, if the integrity with which pro golfers appear to conduct themselves were practised universally.

[2priestsferrari]

Leithen agree entirely. There is a great deal of emotive comments with this but the bottom line is that the assumption has to be that the FIA have to assume that the McLaren team are exactly that - they are a team and so will stand and fall together.

It is entirely possible that one or two individuals held Ferrari data and didn't share, but it is known that at least 2 drivers did and this information only came out after immunity was granted.

Are we really to believe that these were the only ones that knew?

Then the constant complaints about how the FIA dealt with other matters is irrelevant in this instance and actually had Ferrari not pushed this matter then there would have been little action here too.

Ultimately McLaren do have a right to appeal and one must assume that if they choose not to pursue this right of appeal they accept their punishment.

On the legal side of things as you well know there is a difference in the burden of proof with criminal and civil proceedings - one is the balance of probabilities the other beyond reasonable doubt.

As for Coughlan and Stepney in the eyes of the FIA they are representatives of their teams and the FIA has dealt with the teams accordingly.

Which lets face it is no different to the outside world - after all when the Exxon Valdez hit a reef in Alaska because its captain was drunk did the world simply walk away from Exxon???

Well the captain was convicted in a court of law for negligence but still Exxon was still made to pay for the clean up operation and actually the legal case is still on going! Exxon was fined at one point over 5 billion US dollars - reduced recently to 2 billion.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs contended that Exxon bore responsibility for the accident because the company "put a drunk in charge of a tanker in Prince William Sound.

[2priestsferrari]

flemke said:

If one went to the regulator, all they would have to do is to reply, "You are wrong. We've checked it, and it's legal." What would you do then?

McLaren don't seem to share your view that they are so down trodden because I don't hear so much complaining from them and perhaps they might have left the sport by now had they been such a victim.

Instead they have competed in the championship since 1966, won 155 races with a heathly turnover and more than a thousand staff. So perhaps they haven't done so badly out of Formula one?

[rubystone]

rude-boy said:

2priestsferrari said:

Whilst I think it is the current fashion to bash Ferrari, FIA and Alonso right now - what McLaren did was a disgrace and there is no way to deal with them any differently.

Let’s be fair here. It would appear that what 3 employees of Maclaren did is what has brought us to this point.

I would suggest that PdelaR and Mr C were think as thieves with this over the last year or so. They were the only two who knew about this as they knew that if RD found out they would be out on their arses. Keep it QT and just make knowing nods and comments in the right times and places to throw the others off the scent and they will look like one of the best designers and test drivers in the paddock.

PdelaR had his nose put about 8foot out of joint when Our Lewis ™ got the nod ahead of him. Best way to prove RD made the wrong choice was to share this source, with Mr C’s knowledge, (who’s views on the driver selection are unknown to me) with his fellow countryman. Alonso gains an edge on Our Lewis ™ and if Our Lewis ™ had failed to shine who do you think would be next in line to the seat mid season?

That RD went to the FIA after the original hearing with the information that hung them only goes to show in even more relief his immense integrity IMO.

That he has ended up stuck with Alonso is a shame to say the least. In my company all 3 would have had their P45’s on the desk before the sun had set.

Edited by rude-boy on Tuesday 18th September 13:44

If you really think that just 3 (actually at least 6 people are named) McLaren employees were aware of the existence of Ferrari IP, is there any chance you could pass me details of your supplier?