The facts...McLaren/Ferrrari/FIA

[Conian]

Joe911 said:

johnfelstead said:

There is nothing IP about the wheel covers, it's no different from the wings as it's in view.

Just because it is in view does not mean there is no IP.

I had hub caps on my Vauxhall Cavalier back in 1992, long before Ferrari had them... they stole the idea from me.

[stephen300o]

Usually teams copy the idea?, still having to work out why it works and how to make it work on their car. If you aquire the entire "idea" you can skip alot of that.

[jacobyte]

Joe911 said:

johnfelstead said:

There is nothing IP about the wheel covers, it's no different from the wings as it's in view.

Just because it is in view does not mean there is no IP.

AIUI, copyright/IP for design is only such until it is viewable in the public domain, unless it is already in the patent process beforehand.

Which leads to the question: can F1 teams patent their component designs?

[RobbieMeister]

andyps said:

RobbieMeister said:

I once read a quote the meaning of which only partially came through to me.

Now I think I get it!

"Live never to be ashamed if anything you do or say is published around the world - even if what is published is not true"

Thanks for that - great quote, you don't know who said it do you by any chance?

Yes, as someone has said it’s Richard Bach’s (famous for his Jonathan Livingston Seagull) Illusions: Adventures or a Reluctant Messiah. A true work of genius, I would recommend it highly.

Edited by RobbieMeister on Thursday 27th September 11:43

[skwdenyer]

jacobyte said:

Joe911 said:

johnfelstead said:

There is nothing IP about the wheel covers, it's no different from the wings as it's in view.

Just because it is in view does not mean there is no IP.

AIUI, copyright/IP for design is only such until it is viewable in the public domain, unless it is already in the patent process beforehand.

Which leads to the question: can F1 teams patent their component designs?

Yes, but they mostly seem not to bother. The difficulty is that (in the UK) you can't get a patent if you've already let anyone see your idea / work in a "public" manner. So all the other teams would have to do would be to keep an eye on applications for patents to see what was going on.

Once the patent application has been made then you can claim "patent pending" but no patent is given, sometimes for years, whilst the process carries on. The other teams could elect to oppose the patent as "obvious" or "lacking in novelty" all the while using the innovation (or a variation thereof) for themselves.

Most F1 teams seem to be fairly sanguine with new developments. Better to use it on the car as soon as possible, keep it hidden / obfuscated as long as possible, and accept that everybody else will "catch up" eventually.

[andyps]

The other issue is that the act of patent application means that the technical workings have to be made public. Whilst they can't be copied directly, I guess in F1 terms it would show your rivals ways that the team was thinking so maybe better to let tehm see the outside of something, but not give away the details.

[thunderbelmont]

Conian said:

Joe911 said:

johnfelstead said:

There is nothing IP about the wheel covers, it's no different from the wings as it's in view.

Just because it is in view does not mean there is no IP.

I had hub caps on my Vauxhall Cavalier back in 1992, long before Ferrari had them... they stole the idea from me.

I understand that the family of Nicholas Cugnot (d.1804) are to ask the FIA to investigate the blatant copying of Nicholas' concept of a self propelled vehicle. "it's obvious zat zey haz copied Nicholas' designs - see ze wheels, zey are round!" a legals spokesman said.

I have found out that the family of Orville & Wilbur Wright are to sue regarding the use of wings in F1 as a clear copying of their design.

Well if we're going to talk crap, we might as well do it properly. Take Max's lead.

[deadslow]

thunderbelmont said:

I understand that the family of Nicholas Cugnot (d.1804) are to ask the FIA to investigate the blatant copying of Nicholas' concept of a self propelled vehicle. .......

........ by McLaren, of course.

[Heebeegeetee]

The latest edition of Motorsport has a good piece by Roebuck on the subject plus the full 14 page manuscript issued by the FIA.

[LanCat]

Check out the ever readable Mike Lawrence on pitpass too.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_ite...

[vojx]

LanCat said:

Check out the ever readable Mike Lawrence on pitpass too.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_ite...

i like the idea of FA explaining his part in a court of law

[skinny]

we can joke all we want but i guess it's true!!

from autosport.com here www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62809

[quote]
Cologne prosecutors have dropped their charges against three high ranking ex-Toyota personnel over the use of technology stolen from Ferrari to test aerodynamics, autosport.com can reveal.

Former Toyota vice-chairman Ove Andersson, former chief designer Gustav Brunner and former head of aerodynamics Rene Hilhorst were charged in January 2006 over former Ferrari engineers using a data analysis programme that they had brought from their previous team.

The case had been due to be heard by a Cologne court that specialises in economic crimes, but sources have revealed that the legal authorities wrote to the three personnel earlier this week to tell them that the matter has been dropped.

Andersson, who is present with Toyota at this weekend's Japanese Grand Prix, confirmed that the matter was now finished with the Cologne courts.

"The fact is that the judge has dropped the case against everybody," he told autosport.com. "It is the end of the matter.

"I had a letter from my lawyers. The judge has decided that they are dropping the case. Obviously they didn't think it was important enough to continue."

Former Ferrari employees Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini were found guilty of industrial espionage by a Modena court earlier this year over the spying matter.

[/quote]

i'm guessing in the second to last sentence, "it" is toyota! haha

btw, lot of naughty ferrari employee's aren't there...

[anonymous-user]

Massa to Toyota to replace Ralf, Fred to Ferrari is looking more likely after that.

[AAV]

Jesus, I could not read all the posts, something I was really interested in has become boring, eventually Mad Max wiil become an excile, Burma would be fine for him.

[AAV]

Sorry, very sorry, poor taste

[Derek Smith]

Andrew Benson’s article on the BBC Sport website – see http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula... - gives what appears to be a balanced view of the full FIA report. It's quite reasoned and the conclusion is that the FIA have decided that DeLa Rosa has lied - although not about the emails - without any supporting evidence.

I must admit to not being a follower of Benson as he seems to shoot from the hip, but in this article he does seem to use supporting arguments and doesn't go for sweeping statements.

About half-way through he makes the comment that in his interpretation of the document:

There was no evidence of McLaren using the confidential Ferrari technical information. The only actual evidence . . . is that they did not.

And later in the article he says about the earlier hearing:


[i]They were not punished, but were warned that they faced a ban if any proof emerged in the future that they had gained an advantage from the data.

But the much vaunted "new evidence" provided by De la Rosa's e-mails and texts did not provide a smoking gun. And it is difficult to see on the face of it what had changed.[/i]

It's worth reading. You don't have to agree with his conclusions but it makes the FIA's case less than overwhelming.