Do UK Yellow Hatched Boxes Apply to Motorcycles

[montyjohn]

This seems like a daft question, however, do UK Yellow Hatched Boxes Apply to Motorcycles?

The law basically says: You have automatically committed an offence if the exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction.

My farther in law received a ticket in a car recently. He didn't stop in a yellow box, but followed another car at a normal distance so technically broke the rules as the exit was not clear before he entered.

I am guilty of this quit often on a motorcycle, however, if the car in front expectantly stops I can simply ride around the car. Could I therefore argue that my exit is always clear? CCTV would not be able to prove this either way (in most cases).

Question is, would the man behind the CCTV see it this way, or would they simply say, the exit isn't clear so you are breaking the law. If the motorcyclist then argues that it is clear as he can filter, would they say filtering isn't an option as you are in the middle of a junction?

Just curious about what others think

[Cliftonite]

If your father in law did not stop in the box, then no offence has been commited.

"No case to answer"

ICBA to look it up, but I do not think the law mentions entry with a clear exit in sight. That is just a practical driving (common sense) application!

IANAL.

[montyjohn]

Cliftonite said:

If your father in law did not stop in the box, then no offence has been commited.

Not true I'm afraid and a common misconception.
Direct quote from the highway code:

"Rule 174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear."

[Mandat]

montyjohn said:

Cliftonite said:

If your father in law did not stop in the box, then no offence has been commited.

Not true I'm afraid and a common misconception.
Direct quote from the highway code:

"Rule 174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear."

By extension of this, if the exit is clear, but you do stop in the box for whatever reason, does that mean that no offence has been comitted?

[LeoSayer]

Mandat said:

By extension of this, if the exit is clear, but you do stop in the box for whatever reason, does that mean that no offence has been comitted?

Yes. The law is worded like this:

"...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction".

[Mandat]

LeoSayer said:

Mandat said:

By extension of this, if the exit is clear, but you do stop in the box for whatever reason, does that mean that no offence has been comitted?

Yes. The law is worded like this:

"...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction".

That's how I have always understood it, but I have heard that some local authorities send out yellow box CCTV PCN's for stopping in the box junction, irrespective of whether the exit was clear or not.

Surely that' can't be right?

[Cliftonite]

montyjohn said:

Cliftonite said:

If your father in law did not stop in the box, then no offence has been commited.

Not true I'm afraid and a common misconception.
Direct quote from the highway code:

"Rule 174

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear."

The Highway Code is not the law. If you do not stop in or over the yellow box then what offence is committed?

[Cliftonite]

Mandat said:

By extension of this, if the exit is clear, but you do stop in the box for whatever reason, does that mean that no offence has been comitted?

If, when you enter the box, your exit is clear, no offence has been committed if, when you get to your exit, it is by that time blocked, and you are then forced to stop on the box.

IANAL but that is my understanding of the wording of the relevant law.

May well not stop the PCN winging its way to you, though!

But appeal!

[AndrewCrown]

Mandat said:

LeoSayer said:

Mandat said:

By extension of this, if the exit is clear, but you do stop in the box for whatever reason, does that mean that no offence has been comitted?

Yes. The law is worded like this:

"...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction".

That's how I have always understood it, but I have heard that some local authorities send out yellow box CCTV PCN's for stopping in the box junction, irrespective of whether the exit was clear or not.

Surely that' can't be right?

Had PCN from TFL as my rear valence was still in the box, after an emergency stop for a 'brownian motion' cyclist... I did not know about that rule...

[montyjohn]

Cliftonite said:

The Highway Code is not the law. If you do not stop in or over the yellow box then what offence is committed?

You really need to read the highway code it seems as all your responses to my comments have been wrong.
Anything in the highway code described with MUST or MUST NOT is a legal requirement.
Now the highway code may not be a legal docuemt (this I am note sure of) but it centenly tells you what the law is and it is used as evidence for legal cases.

Anyway, we digress. Any insight as to whether motorcycles are immune to yellow hatches or not?

[zeDuffMan]

montyjohn said:

My farther in law received a ticket in a car recently. He didn't stop in a yellow box, but followed another car at a normal distance so technically broke the rules as the exit was not clear before he entered.

That's such bullst. So you can't maintain flow of traffic when you get to a hatched junction?

Did he get caught by camera or was there someone sitting there?

[vonhosen]

montyjohn said:

Cliftonite said:

The Highway Code is not the law. If you do not stop in or over the yellow box then what offence is committed?

You really need to read the highway code it seems as all your responses to my comments have been wrong.
Anything in the highway code described with MUST or MUST NOT is a legal requirement.
Now the highway code may not be a legal docuemt (this I am note sure of) but it centenly tells you what the law is and it is used as evidence for legal cases.

Anyway, we digress. Any insight as to whether motorcycles are immune to yellow hatches or not?

The Highway Code position is outlined in Sec 38 Road Traffic Act 1988
Where it states MUST, or MUST NOT it is referencing law & will detail the relevant legislation it is referring to in relation to the MUST, or MUST NOT.

Where there is conflict between the description of what amounts to an offence (by virtue of MUST, or MUST NOT) within the Highway Code & the supplying parent legislation the wording/interpretation of the parent legislation is what matters.

Traffic Signs and General Directions 2016 said:

Box junctions

11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) Subject to sub-paragraph (4) the marking when placed as a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(c) of the definition of that expression conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.

(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
(4) When a vehicle is being used for at least one of the purposes mentioned at sub-paragraph (5) and the observance of the prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) or (2) would be likely to hinder the use of that vehicle for that purpose, then that prohibition does not apply to the driver of the vehicle.

(5) The purposes are—

(a)fire and rescue authority;
(b)Scottish Fire and Rescue Service;
(c)ambulance;
(d)providing a response to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service;
(e)bomb or explosive disposal;
(f)special forces;
(g)police; and
(h)National Crime Agency.
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—

(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and
(7) A reference in this paragraph (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.

[montyjohn]

vonhosen said:

a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Thanks for the info:

Had to read that legal stuff a few time before it started to make sense.

So basically:
To me above applies to the driver’s own vehicle as well as any other vehicle.
So the law doesn't prohibit you form stopping in a yellow hatch provided you don't cause another vehicle to stop and you have space to leave before you enter.

So, for my original question regarding motorcycles, as long as I know I can leave without stopping before I enter then I am not breaking the rules of the yellow hatched box and I assume it’s up to the authorities to prove that a motorcycle cannot leave the hatch space before they entered.

[Pica-Pica]

montyjohn said:

vonhosen said:

a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Thanks for the info:

Had to read that legal stuff a few time before it started to make sense.

So basically:
To me above applies to the driver’s own vehicle as well as any other vehicle.
So the law doesn't prohibit you form stopping in a yellow hatch provided you don't cause another vehicle to stop and you have space to leave before you enter.

So, for my original question regarding motorcycles, as long as I know I can leave without stopping before I enter then I am not breaking the rules of the yellow hatched box and I assume it’s up to the authorities to prove that a motorcycle cannot leave the hatch space before they entered.

It also seems to say that if the vehicle in front has clear passage but stops just after the box, with a car's gap in front, and I anticipate he should (and would) have cleared and left a gap for me to clear the junction, that driver is also guilty of an offence. That happened to me, but there was no effect on other traffic. I am waiting for any notice in the post!